So is it better to e.g. start 10th and finish 5th or start 6th and finish 5th in terms of DR ?

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by ollyvass, Dec 6, 2017.

  1. Outspacer

    Outspacer

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    As best we can tell so far, it should be DR order, but it's bugged when there are players with DR of C or D in the field. See here.

    I've been watching it since then, and haven't seen a race where that didn't seem correct. The best time for checking was around when I crossed from DR=B to DR=A, because then I could assume I was higher than all the Bs and lower than all the As - at that point I could predict what number I had every time, as long as there were no DR=D in the race.

    Now I'm a bit higher up A, I don't know whether the other As are above or below me. But, as long as there are no DR=D in the race, I can tell how many are above me by my door number :)

    That's the method I use, because I can't make it out on the intro screen, behind all the text.

    I suspect there's no direct correlation, although obviously it's somewhat related. It's difficult to guess at exactly how DR gain/loss is calculated because we don't know the exact DR of everyone in the field. I've been watching out for any cases where having DR=C or D drivers in the race affects DR gain/loss, but haven't seen anything obvious yet - my impression so far is that the bug that affects door numbers doesn't affect DR scoring.

    I think (in some cases at least) it would be fairly obvious if it was bugged - one race I'd quali'd 4th and that was what my door number should've been but there were 7 or 8 DR=C in the race, so I had a much higher door number. I think I finished 3rd. If it was based on the (bugged) door number at all then I would've had a massive boost to my DR, but I didn't. In fact I scored better in a similar race with stronger competition below me (fewer DR=C, more DR=B), which makes me think it's a completely separate calculation, possibly/probably ELO based.
     
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  2. Zenjungian

    Zenjungian

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    Thank you. Very helpful. So you think door number allocation is bugged for DR D and C - which is where I’m at. That’s at least stopped me thinking there was something I couldn’t grasp. It’s not a great worry. I think this is a great game on the whole. Mammoth task organising online racing and driver matching. I’m amazed it works as well as it does, despite it’s quirks.
     
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  3. Outspacer

    Outspacer

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    Yup, it will be pretty bugged for you, until you get to higher DR=B and see a race with only DR=S/A/B. I suppose if you had a race with all DR=C it would give correct door numbers, but virtually every time you'll have a mixture of DRs. At DR=C you'll usually get a door number lower than you should have, lower than any DR=B or A that are in the race.
     
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  4. Zenjungian

    Zenjungian

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    So is door number intended to be an indication of rank (for want of a better word) on the grid - with 1 being highest and 20 lowest ? With this being an unexplained calculation of DR and qualifying time ? ..and by the way it could be some time before I’m DR B! I struggle to maintain C but I’m getting there :-)
     
  5. Outspacer

    Outspacer

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    Yes, we think it's supposed to be an indication of rank, just based on DR (which internally is a number between 0 and 75,000). The highest DR should get #1 and so on, but the bug messes it up most of the time.

    Keep pushing :)
     
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  6. akira3d

    akira3d

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    I'm still not clear how you level up the driver rating. Yesterday I had three Sport races, one where I finished exactly as I qualified, a Gr3 race where I raised 3 positions, and a Gr4 race where I raised 2 (though at one point I was up 5 and would have possibly advanced more if I had not gotten hit from behind and off track). I actually saw the bar under my "D" rating shrink. I was really close to "C" before those races, but now I'm less than halfway to "C".

    No one had a rating lower than me in those races, but there were many higher ranked drivers in those races. I may have even beaten a "C" or two. All of us had "S" SR.
     
  7. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    Finish in the top half of the field (as of the matchmaking screen*) and you'll gain DR. Finish in the bottom half and you'll lose DR. Finish bang on it (like... 6th in an 11-car grid) and you will gain an extremely low amount of DR (I've got it twice in my data, with 14 pt and 17pt gained)

    Nothing else seems to matter - things like gaining or losing places, or the expected finish position/door number idea may have an effect, but if they do it's so small as to be within the error margin for the points per finishing position score, or around +/- <10%.


    *Not the number of people who start or finish the race, the number in the matchmaking screen before the track loads up.
     
  8. 250Cal

    250Cal

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    I've had an 11th in a 20 car field give a -497 DR score.
     
  9. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    That's in the bottom half. Halfway in a 20 car field is 10.5th.

    Still, that's a lot of negative points for that.
     
  10. 250Cal

    250Cal

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    It's an outlier, for sure.
     
  11. ColinNZ

    ColinNZ

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    So, can you gain/lose more DR during FIA races than in the daily races?
     
  12. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    I don't know. The larger grid sizes mean that you probably will experience larger DR changes than a 12-car Daily Race A, but I've not spent enough time on them to say anything for sure.
     
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  13. Zenjungian

    Zenjungian

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    Ah, so this is why I struggle when I get promoted to C, race with stronger drivers and gain places say 18th -> 12th but lose DR. and drop back to D. How are you guys calculating exactly how many points you are gaining/losing in each race ?
     
  14. 250Cal

    250Cal

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    10 lap daily race gives similar points to the FIA race but per above, I need more data.

    @Famine There are a number of threads running on similar subjects now and these topics often get mentioned elsewhere. Can we rationalise down to one to make it easier to capture data etc. Or maybe one for SR and one for DR?
     
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  15. Outspacer

    Outspacer

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    We don't really have enough that's definite to say about how DR is calculated from race results, yet. If only we could search for a player's profile on gran-turismo.com by name, we could do a lot better research - the data we probably need is the DR points for every driver before and after the race (not viable yet), along with their start and finish positions (easy), for even just a few races.

    This has been the best thread for DR discussion so far :)
     
  16. 250Cal

    250Cal

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    I think we're collectively learning. Some people certainly have a wealth of data that they're working to understand. I'm in the early days of this but can see clear trends already. I don't think it will change the way I play but I like to understand. I did similar for a few years on FIFA Ultimate Team - although when I understood the data and how false the game is I stopped playing it!
     
  17. Outspacer

    Outspacer

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    I think we're at an impasse until we find a way get more data per race. It isn't enough to know only one person's DR change from each race, especially when over multiple races other's DRs are changing as well (even if it were the same opponents each time, which it isn't). It only provides guesses, theories to be looked into further... but we can't.

    DR seems to be working well enough to give me some pretty close battles, so I don't think I'll give up if we find it to be 'false' in some way.
     
  18. EmArA

    EmArA

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    Seems like the manner points plays a big role, wish to see that in the profile in a future update.
     
  19. 250Cal

    250Cal

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    Manner points for the race itself or manner points in terms of driver's SR category at the start of the race?
     
  20. Zenjungian

    Zenjungian

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    Starting to look like, in order to progress I should practice enough to be confident of finishing in the top half. Starting at the back of the grid and gaining a few places will still lead to losing DR.
     
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  21. 250Cal

    250Cal

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    677
    Correct.
     
  22. Zenjungian

    Zenjungian

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    For checking DR points I assume you are accessing personal statistics on kudosprime, or is there another way I’m not aware of ?
     
  23. VFOURMAX1

    VFOURMAX1

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    So basically you are saying your results and gaining or losing DR has a lot to do with the luck of the draw in the lobby you are placed in. If you are starting 17th and finish in 15th then you are saying that even though you improved your position you likely take a hit in DR points?

    But if you start 5th and finish 3rd then you will likely gain DR points?
     
  24. 250Cal

    250Cal

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    Yeah, using kudosprime.
     
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  25. Zenjungian

    Zenjungian

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    Ok, it’s all coming together now. What a great forum this is. My current struggle has been to get established in DR C because I’ve been qualifying toward the back of the grid and gaining places but not usually top half and so dropping back into DR D. This system could be improved, if you’re listening PD.
     
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  26. EmArA

    EmArA

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    Thought it is for the whole race and not only at the start...to be honest it is quite confusing the ranking system is (at least for me)

    My target has always been to put fast sectors/laps (iow be consistent), gain a few positions when possible and avoid any contact when overtaking or overtaken even if it means i will finish in a lower position. Haven’t lost any SR or DR lately even when starting at the back and not gaining any position but noticed that these manner points could have something to do with it...might be wrong though.

    18A71712-68DC-4095-BBF2-B60B62D07FC8.png

    Wish PD will put some guidelines to avoid any confusion.
     
  27. Pedinhuh

    Pedinhuh

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    Alright, for those who are studying and can access this database, I have two questions:

    How much DR points do you earn per position gained in the race?

    Also, I know that the green symbol that shows up above your time when you pass a checkpoint, represents SR points gained, and I know that the same symbol with a orange colors means SR points lost, with this in mind I want to know if, in case I bumped into anyone by accident and I got a penalty early in the race and I race clean for the reminder of the race, I can still walk away from the race with my SR intact?
     
  28. 250Cal

    250Cal

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    Don't know, yet. Will need a lot of data for that.

    Yes, you can still achieve a positive SR depending on the circumstance.

    IMO a higher SR will give more points, though others have more data. My data has shown more DR pts in higher SR fields. The SR used for matchmaking is what I'm calling the SR at the start of the race.

    SR during the race - not sure of the impact, yet. Don't have anything conclusive.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 4, 2018
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  29. Outspacer

    Outspacer

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    If the matchmaking has been able to create a lobby with a limited spread of DRs, then yes to both cases.

    If there's a spread, and an upset - say an S spins out and is beaten by a D - then such a simple model may not hold any more. The D might gain even if finishing low down the field. We don't know that yet, but it's the kind of case that may give us useful clues.

    Luck of the draw... depends to some extent how good the matchmaking is at setting up reasonable races to 'measure' DR.
     
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  30. 250Cal

    250Cal

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    Done some more testing this evening and sacrificed my DR and SR to do it - not sure I'll be doing that again.

    I'm going to suggest the following (For DR A SR S anyway):

    Max/Min SR in one race is +/- 15pts
    Max/Min DR in one race is +/- 1200 pts. (Plus 1200 if you get promoted/relegated as a result)

    Not sure if anyone can replicate/confirm/suggest alternative values.

    Edit:
    The negative value changes can be achieved in a three lap race (Daily Race B) i.e. I got -1200 and -15 in the same race tonight.