Touring Cars Super GT Thread Archive

Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by Appie, May 23, 2007.

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  1. Bo

    Bo Premium

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    DTM will become even further removed from being a touring car series, GT500s will just be slower. DTM will see the manufacturer expansion opportunities, as with the first Class 1, and could end up killing it all again.

    They need to learn from the past.
     
  2. Niku Driver HC

    Niku Driver HC

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    Well, the term "balance" has to be used somwhat loosely, I guess. But you know what I mean; the great races that SuperGT has hosted as of late, its status, that sort of balance.

    So, in essence, you fear that DTM will loose even more of its (already dim) identity, SuperGT will loose its pace, and both could risk complete failure if it all goes wrong, correct? Well, I can see your concern, it could flop spectacularly if neither classes know how to set it all up. For now, however, one should hold his breath. We have no clear idea of how will this union function, so a grain of salt with these news is a wise thing to take.

    And what is the original story of the first Class 1? Asking out of curiousity.
     
  3. Jonathan777

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    Honestly looking forward to this new "Class one"..
    That is if the DTMs speed up and gt500 keeps evolving as it is and somehow gt300 remains among them..

    I cant see the Japanese manufacturers willing to slow down after they have put all this hard work in creating imo the most entertaining racing series on 4 wheels :)
     
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  4. Bo

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    Essentially, DTM was growing at quite a rapid rate performance-wise, so the FIA spotted the chance to take the Class 1 formula international. At the end of the second season, when costs had got absolutely ridiculous, and development was getting out of hand, Alfa Romeo realised that half the markets the series was trying to tap into were completely useless for the brand. When they pulled the plug, Opel did too (realising exactly the same thing), which left a lonely Mercedes. The series was duly canned, and then DTM took 4 years to actually recover again, since so much faith had been lost from the previous sham.

    Super GT and DTM are incompatible by nature. One markets itself as a prototype-GT series, the other one a touring car series. It doesn't matter how much you unify the cars, you're essentially limiting the potential of one and turning the other into something it completely isn't. Both series will lose their essence. Aside from being a marketing disaster and completely devoid of common sense, you're going to get new DTM teams turning up in GT500 and pulling the plug after a few races because they're lashing money at a racing formula they're about 20 years behind the other teams on, and they have absolutely no tyre data for the cars and are going to be way off the pace. Those teams are going to be few and far between, even if we presume the main BMW/Audi/Mercedes GT300 teams field a car each as programme extensions. Conversely, nobody's going to take a Honda NSX, Nissan GT-R or the like to Germany, since supercars aren't fit for purpose in a touring car marketing scenario. If one team dives in for some reason, it's going to be for a shed-load of money (the only reason you'd do it is just to be 'different'), and with zero manufacturer support because it's an empty marketing opportunity. Let's not forget the Class 1 is completely the opposite of the "money saving" formula that gave DTM a new lease of life.

    Essentially, it's going to be a one-way system, an expensive one at that, which will bear little fruit even in a good scenario. It's all basically a big show for nothing, and one that poses a detrimental threat to several aspects of both series. In the worst case scenario, both series will try and take the new brand appeal concept and take both series to places they don't have a market in, and both series could end up on their deathbeds.

    Class 1 - prove me wrong. I would love to see a nice manufacturer mix in GT500, but this is the worst way possible to go about it. If major complications don't make themselves apparent in the long run, then the formula has beaten every odd stacked against it.
     
  5. PatrisS136

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    I actually think they'll do unified events as a all-stars or one-race " World Cup ".
     
  6. Bo

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    From "end of 2017", it sounds to me like they're aiming for the JAFGP. It'd make sense too, not being a championship round. The basic aim of bringing the German three into Super GT still remains.
     
  7. Niku Driver HC

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    First of all, thank you for explaning this in so much detail, much appreciated. :tup:

    So I see, the backstory of Class 1 is not a good one. The first attempt at DTM going international only led to a mass exodus of manufactureres, and the near-death of DTM itself. Not quite the goal they were after at the time...

    And again, you do make a fair point; Japanese teams will only be really interested if the profit gained from this is good, and German teams will fight an uphill battle against unknown tracks and far better trained rival teams, who have all the required knowledge of Japanese tracks. It's a dangerous blend for sure, and many signs point to a very risky bet that might backfire quickly. But again, I'll hold my breath until seeing it in action. The chances of this neo-Class 1 succeding are slim, but they are there. It can either bring in new fresh blood, revitalizing both series, or it could lead to their ruin...
     
  8. PatrisS136

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    Unfortunately Class 2 died some time later and now we're stuck with 1.6L T Citroens

    If they'll decide to invest more in GT3 all SGT/DTM idea will be bad for them imo

    I know few EU good drivers knowing a lot about Super GT which can be used in DTM teams * cough* Lotterer * cough* Treuyler * cough * Duval * cough *

    BTW Just to remind - Japanese big three won every JGTC / GT500 championship since 1997
     
  9. Bo

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    Except the Japanese teams offer them so much for contracts, they'd never look to a European team.
     
  10. Niku Driver HC

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    He does have a point, there has to be a reason why people such as Duval and Lotterer haven't left their Super GT seats to go to other GT categories... Of course, Le Mans can get them out of a Japanese car and into Audis, so there is that. Still, it's unlikely to see them leave SGT, if they haven't done such so far with so many interested teams...
     
  11. PatrisS136

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    What if they'll get DTM-WEC contract like Kristensen one day ?
     
  12. Niku Driver HC

    Niku Driver HC

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    It's a possibility, yes. But so far, it's rather unlikely that such a thing might happen. But you never know, as they say...
     
  13. catamount39

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    I'm optimistic about Class 1. Sure it's going to be middle ground between DTM and the GT500's but I'm looking forward to the more diverse competition. A GT-R winning in Germany and a BMW winning in Japan anyone? :p

    Quick question...is the FIA innvolved in this? Or is it just between DEKRA and SGT organizers.?
     
  14. PatrisS136

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    No , rather not

    Also , I'm in 99% was right about World cup

    ''In order to encourage direct competition between
    competitors from DTM and Super GT, it has also been
    confirmed that two ‘World Cup’ events will be held in the
    2017/18 off-season – firstly in Japan, and then in
    Germany – that will be open to all six manufacturers
    competing in the two series. Plans are also afoot to create a new series in the US
    based on the Class 1 regulations, to be organised by
    United SportsCar governing body IMSA, although a launch
    date for this has yet to be decided.''

    Quote from motorsport.com , I'm sorry but i'm currently not able to put it correctly in my e52
     
  15. mustafur

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    Isn't DTM mostly slower due to the engines?

    I understand they have a Single Tyre Supplier but most of the pace loss to Super GT is the engines which they will have when they race each other.

    The biggest difference between the two series when they race though will be how they work out if there will be performance Ballast or not, this is a must IMO as it stops Manufactuers from Investing too much in car development knowing they will be pulled back(Works well in GT3 as well).

    DTM isn't a touring car series its basically Sprint GT as it's always been since it came back in 2000.
     
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  16. Bo

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    About half of the pace deficit is because of that. The rest is the tyres.
     
  17. Godarm

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  18. trustjab

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    I think class one will be great. Super GT moved to 'dtm regs' just for the reason of having a common car to race in either series or a new combined series. The tires can be solved easily. Either SuperGT teams agree to try the spec hankook or DTM teams try their car on some Bridgestones. By the time class one takes place, the regs between the two will be exactly alike. Details will be interesting, but itll be an evolution of what we currently see. Itll need some promotion, but theres a big gaming crowd who know these cars. Id love to go watch!
     
  19. Cap'n Jack

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    I think DTM might be interested in using the faster Super GT spec tyres if they want to further legitimise Themselves as a 'stepping stone to F1'.
     
  20. mustafur

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    It would be epic if we can Japanese BMW, Audi and Merc teams in GT500.

    The Japanese teams going to DTM though doesn't really interest me, that series needs an overhaul before its even remotely watchable, most of which should come in the form of Ballast, and some longer races rather then the same tired format of procession and predictability.
     
  21. Tired Tyres

    Tired Tyres

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    Thailand round on Sunday, streamed on Nissan's YouTube page.
     
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  22. Tired Tyres

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    Countdown is commencing.



    1 hour 38 minutes to the start.
     
  23. Tired Tyres

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    Just 66 hours to go until the Fuji 300KM on Sunday.

     
  24. Bo

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    And Fuji next year will be a Wednesday race for the first time in 11 years.
     
  25. trustjab

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    In recent tire tests the mother chassis apple Lotus Evora was fastest. Maybe it will be competitive at Fuji.
     
  26. Bo

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    I did this little review of all the testing stuff that's gone on recently.
     
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  27. Tired Tyres

    Tired Tyres

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    Well. I didn't expect that winner!. Welcome to 40KG weight penalty for Suzuka 1000KM! :lol:
     
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  28. trustjab

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    Tire compounds made a big difference in this race. The Nissan stream didnt have that info and seemed like the commentators assumed the GTR's are the dominant car. It was a real hot day at Fuji, a heat stroke warning was mentioned by the track's twitter account to the spectators. A driver mentioned track temp was 52 degrees C, or 125 Fahrenheit.

    The Lexus probably didnt make a good decision on tire compound. Maybe went softer than Nissan. Thats why they got caught up at the end of the stint.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2015
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  29. Bo

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    And I also mentioned to Sam that Nissan had specifically centered their SUGO testing around high ballast race pace. All of them ended up working really nicely, and not surprising at all.
     
  30. twitcher

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    Just watched a replay of the Fuji 300Km. Every time I watch Super GT, I love it more :D. That opening battle in GT300 had me on the edge of my seat, trying to will that BMW past those big Mercs.

    Really happy we get English broadcasts now, and the Radio Le Mans guys do a pretty good job with little direct info. It would great if there was an actual English broadcast from Japan so we could get more info (like the tire strategies mentioned above), but I'm more than willing to live with what we've got for now.


    If I can nitpick at the broadcast though, there was a moment that made me facepalm pretty good.

    The incedent near the end of the race where the Raybrig NSX was trying to pass the Petronas RCF in the final corner, and contact was made; Sam jumped out the window during the replay, condemning the RCF driver for "leaving the door open" and subsequently shutting it, resulting in the contact between the two cars.

    In my very humble couch racer opinion, only a person who doesn't understand the racing line through the final corner of Fuji could make the analysis that Sam did. Anyone who has seen that line in first person view understands that the door will always look open there, and it will always shut at the apex. In fact, I'm pretty sure there is specific mention of the final two corners at Fuji in GTPs OLR. Not that our OLR applies to Super GT though :lol:

    I guess my gripe is that I wish more people would open up to the idea of using "games" like GT, or more accurate sims, as tools and resources, as opposed to seeing them as, well...games.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2015
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