The five cars that you DO NOT want in GT6.

[gamerdog6482]

It's worth 5 cars, because:

• X2010 prototype
• X2010
• X2010 Seb. Vet.
• X2011
• physics engine not having to compute for X2011 speeds

OK, wrong. The engine will compute a possible speed of any car all the way up to the binary limit, which is a bit over 2 trillion.

 

[Hyped]

Also because (at least the 2J) rocks would get sucked up and spit out the back.

I think it would be quite funny if GT managed to model that...

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

OK, wrong. The engine will compute a possible speed of any car all the way up to the binary limit, which is a bit over 2 trillion.

But, in terms of accuracy, the engine will not be able to accurately compute at those speeds. It's not the top speed, it's the accuracy of the physics at those speeds. Aerodynamics are exponential, meaning that downforce increases exponentially with speed, meaning that "a bit over 2 trillion" would net more downforce than the game's capable of portraying/calculating for. Even as fast as 200 mp/h has flaws in the aerodynamic accuracy. Even Kazunori Yamauchi admitted to this, in a response to a question about F1 licensing etc., saying, (and I do NOT quote verbatim) that it'd be nearly impossible to make a perfect calculation of aerodynamics in all circumstances, though he wishes he could.


I also find it suspicious that you've refrained to include which units of measurement we're talking about, because there's a large difference between "a bit over 2 trillion" kilometers an hour, and "a bit over 2 trillion" miles per hour.


It's also a bit weird, that you even mention a speed over such a number, given that the number you've given comes close to, or exceeds, the speed of light, which is the fastest known speed in the known universe. Therefore, I fully refute your claim, and say that the physics system is unable to comprehend those sorts of speeds, because science, and every field in science is unable to comprehend those sorts of speeds.

 

[Exorcet]

It's worth 5 cars, because:

• X2010 prototype
• X2010
• X2010 Seb. Vet.
• X2011
• physics engine not having to compute for X2011 speeds

That's 2 cars. All 2010's are just reskins of the exact same car.

Your physics engine comment makes no sense.

And, the physics engine struggles with it, and you and I know it. The aero changes are so drastic, but the computer has to try and calculate for the difference between when the wheels are touching the ground versus not, meaning that it becomes unstable (and comes off of the ground) very easily, after making contact with any other car, OR a curb/kerb.

This is completely made up.

But, in terms of accuracy, the engine will not be able to accurately compute at those speeds. It's not the top speed, it's the accuracy of the physics at those speeds. Aerodynamics are exponential, meaning that downforce increases exponentially with speed, meaning that "a bit over 2 trillion" would net more downforce than the game's capable of portraying/calculating for. Even as fast as 200 mp/h has flaws in the aerodynamic accuracy. Even Kazunori Yamauchi admitted to this, in a response to a question about F1 licensing etc., saying, (and I do NOT quote verbatim) that it'd be nearly impossible to make a perfect calculation of aerodynamics in all circumstances, though he wishes he could.


I also find it suspicious that you've refrained to include which units of measurement we're talking about, because there's a large difference between "a bit over 2 trillion" kilometers an hour, and "a bit over 2 trillion" miles per hour.


It's also a bit weird, that you even mention a speed over such a number, given that the number you've given comes close to, or exceeds, the speed of light, which is the fastest known speed in the known universe. Therefore, I fully refute your claim, and say that the physics system is unable to comprehend those sorts of speeds, because science, and every field in science is unable to comprehend those sorts of speeds.

Where does this come from? I have a feeling that you're misunderstanding a lot of things.

 

[gamerdog6482]

I read this in a GT3 forum. The highest number modern computers can calculate is a bit over 2,000,000,000,000, and I don't know that exact number. Also, I agree with your comments about the downforce. HOWEVER speeds of over 2,000,000,000,000MPH HAVE been achieved in GT3, so if GT3 could calculate those speeds before crashing I don't think GT5 couldn't.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Your physics engine comment makes no sense.



This is completely made up.



Where does this come from? I have a feeling that you're misunderstanding a lot of things.

This site's very own News page, referring to an interview with Kazunori Yamauchi.

Click that link, and read.


It says:

“[...] we are close on issues of aerodynamics. No simulation can achieve 100% because even the great Formula 1 teams use models to refine their models , but we are close. We could not achieve a perfect simulator or even if we had machines that were ten thousand or a hundred thousand times more powerful than today.”-Kazunori Yamauchi

He's referring to the very minute changes that happen in aerodynamics at speed. Now, imagine that F1 teams-the pinnacle of aerodynamicists-have trouble with aerodynamic calculations, from time to time. Now, imagine that Kazunori admits that the aerodynamic model in GT5 (and GT6) is not capable of achieving "a perfect simulator."



And, gamerdog, I did not say that those speeds are impossible. I'm simply saying that the physics system cannot handle the speeds of X- cars, accurately, let alone your "only possible in a video game" 2,000,000,000 mp/h "ideas." I mean no disrespect, but I refute your ideas. I've studied, albeit partially, as an aerodynamicist myself. Then, I found out that there's too much guessing and trial-and-error involved, and gave up.

 

[Tornado]

Daihatsu MOVE SR-XX 2WD '97
Daihatsu STORIA CX 2WD '98
Fiat 500 R '72
Lotus Esprit V8 SE '98
Suzuki Cappuccino (EA11R) '91
Toyota CELICA GT-FOUR Rally Car (ST185) '95
Toyota PRIUS G (J) '02
Toyota PRIUS G Touring Selection (J) '03

See no reason to remove any of them. You're list is also quite weird, leaving some duplicates and cars that don't exist for the sake of removing the versions of the cars that do.

 

[Samus]

See no reason to remove any of them. You're list is also quite weird, leaving some duplicates and cars that don't exist for the sake of removing the versions of the cars that do.

- The Daihatsu's it was one or the other really, they're such insignificant cars I doubt anyone is going to care whether they have the 2WD or 4WD version.

- The 500 I just removed all of the extra old version that weren't premium. I didn't see a need to include four different versions, all relatively similar.

- The Lotus because as far as I can see the only major difference between the SE and the GT is trim. You wouldn't miss the SE if you had the GT.

In 1998 the V8 range was split into SE and GT specifications, both cars with a much changed interior configuration, both offering similar performance with the SE being the more luxurious of the two

- The Cappucino was again a matter of not needing two very similar versions.

- Didn't see a need to have the standard ST185 when we have the premium ST205. Or have I mixed those up? I know one was succesful in real life and the other not so, but mostly the same.

- the Prius once again I see no need for three very similar models, nobody is likely to drive the 09 version then really wish they could drive the older versions instead. Maybe keep one of them but certainly not two.

As for the ones I've missed that are dupes or non-existent feel free to add them, I did only skim the car list and was bound to miss some.

 

[gamerdog6482]

And, gamerdog, I did not say that those speeds are impossible. I'm simply saying that the physics system cannot handle the speeds of X- cars, accurately, let alone your "only possible in a video game" 2,000,000,000 mp/h "ideas." I mean no disrespect, but I refute your ideas. I've studied, albeit partially, as an aerodynamicist myself. Then, I found out that there's too much guessing and trial-and-error involved, and gave up.

""Ideas""? I am saying that the PS2 could calculate a car going over 2 trillion MPH, so why couldn't the PS3? I don't think they could handle that correctly, as you said there is a lot of guessing, so we can't know what would happen.

 

[locoman88]

""Ideas""? I am saying that the PS2 could calculate a car going over 2 trillion MPH, so why couldn't the PS3? I don't think they could handle that correctly, as you said there is a lot of guessing, so we can't know what would happen.

Gamerdog,don't even bother with mr.troll

 

[Downhill Dino]

- The Daihatsu's it was one or the other really, they're such insignificant cars I doubt anyone is going to care whether they have the 2WD or 4WD version.

That's ridiculous. Why wouldn't someone care about driverrain? Apparently not you, but speak for yourself, not others. Even if they are "insignificant."

- Didn't see a need to have the standard ST185 when we have the premium ST205. Or have I mixed those up? I know one was succesful in real life and the other not so, but mostly the same.

Has nothing to do with duplication though, as that is what the list is about.

 

[TyrrellRacing]

""Ideas""? I am saying that the PS2 could calculate a car going over 2 trillion MPH, so why couldn't the PS3? I don't think they could handle that correctly, as you said there is a lot of guessing, so we can't know what would happen.

... And you complain about Simon and Toronado being off topic.

 

[1241Penguin]

""Ideas""? I am saying that the PS2 could calculate a car going over 2 trillion MPH, so why couldn't the PS3? I don't think they could handle that correctly, as you said there is a lot of guessing, so we can't know what would happen.

Much like how GT5's physics engine has a problem when going under 5 km/h. It probably can handle 2 trillion miles per hour, just not realistically.

 

[Tornado]

Something not being missed is not remotely the same thing as them being dupes of one another like the Miatas.

• A 2WD Daihatsu that is 10% lighter than the other one is going to drive a lot different than the AWD one.
• A Fiat 500R, with it's larger engine sourced from Abarth, is considerably different in practice from the other 500s (which were just minor trim variations).
• The Esprit V8 SE, with it's heavier weight and better aerodynamics is going to be more stable stock (and it was, at least in GT4).
• The Cappuccino versions have completely different engines (albeit based on the same block) with different personalities (the EA11R is a peakier engine with less torque).
• The Celica ST185 isn't even the same car as the ST205 that is a Premium, and the specific ST185 in the game is the one that won the 1995 Safari Rally. Both cars were successful, too. It's just that Toyota spent most of the time the ST205 was on sale being banned from WRC.
• The two Prius models aren't even the same generation either.

 

[Samus]

Fair enough then, a few were more my personal opinion. Like I said though, if you want to add the real dupes that I missed feel free.

 

[gamerdog6482]

Gamerdog,don't even bother with mr.troll

👍 that, every where I see this guy post he is arguing.

 

[FormulaKimball]

You know, the way the UCD was implemented in GT5 is largely to blame for all this. If we didn't now have to go there endlessly wading through nearly identical JDM cars to get to the one awesome rare race car we wanted, we wouldn't notice as much that there are 50 variations of cars we might never drive. I personally can't say I'd get rid of anything, since I've had some surprises (e.g. drive a 2CV around the Nurburgring) and some silly fun (I enjoy the hell out of the Top Gear Kubel/Swim challenge). And even though I hate the handling changes made to the X2010, I used to drive it a lot and it made every other car seem so much slower and easier to drive.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

""Ideas""? I am saying that the PS2 could calculate a car going over 2 trillion MPH, so why couldn't the PS3? I don't think they could handle that correctly, as you said there is a lot of guessing, so we can't know what would happen.

Gamerdog,don't even bother with mr.troll

Much like how GT5's physics engine has a problem when going under 5 km/h. It probably can handle 2 trillion miles per hour, just not realistically.

1241Penguin understands this. It's not whether the cars are capable of reaching those speeds (I'm sure that there's some glitch in the game, somewhere, that allows ridiculous speeds) but it's how they turn at those speeds.


The fact is, that, an F1 car would actually be pushed down on track (by downforce) so much, that, supposing it had enough power etc., to make it up to 2,000,000,000 mp/h, the chassis would drag against the ground, and, (I'm being serious here) tear holes in the track.


Both in GT5 and in real life, it's impossible to simulate (accurately represent) 2,000,000,000 mp/h, because, at those speeds, the laws of physics and such will act against the car, in ways which have never been seen before, and have never been measured, or even observed through science.


The PS2/PS3 computational systems are irrelevant. All that is relevant is aerodynamic principles (like, Formula 1 cars losing like 20 mm. of their ride height, due to the downforce (downward pressure created by wind passing over "aerodynamic devices" which create a low pressure zone below the "wing element," by diverting the air from below, into a high pressure zone ABOVE the wing element.))


The same principle (aerodynamic downforce is the exact opposite of aerodynamic lift) explains how planes get airborne. Planes are propelled forward by their motors, and the wings produce lift. Above the wing, there's low pressure, caused by diverting air UNDER the wing. Below the wing, there's high pressure, caused by diverting air UNDER the wing.


All of the air molecules "join" together, in "high pressure" zones, creating "high-pressure" (a more dense grouping of molecules, in this case, molecules and particles of matter generally classified as "air.")



So, please listen, for once in your life: sure, a PS2 glitch allowed you to reach 2,000,000,000 mp/h. That's fact. I won't deny it. I've seen some ridiculous YouTube videos, too. But, I've also seen the Toyota GT-ONE doing a "wheelie" at 260+ mp/h:





In reality, if this car got up to those speeds, it would be impossible for the car to maintain any traction, and a pocket of high pressure air would be created, underneath the car, which would lead to:





In this crash, the air flowing underneath the car was of a higher pressure than the pressure flowing over the car. This created "lift," which causes the car to get airborne, and then the tires lose contact patch, and the car loses control.


A single bump at 200 mp/h caused the car to flip, due to the high pressure air which was "caught" beneath it. This will happen repeatedly. Aerodynamics is a scientific principle, which people have "observed and noted" since Leonardo Da Vinci, whose "helicopter" design was designed to push air downwards, causing aerodynamic lift.


If you say "TL;DR" here's a summary: aerodynamics will push the car into the ground at 2,000,000,000 and, in reality, it's impossible to make a car go that fast.

Video proof

 

[Exorcet]

This site's very own News page, referring to an interview with Kazunori Yamauchi.

Click that link, and read.


It says:




He's referring to the very minute changes that happen in aerodynamics at speed. Now, imagine that F1 teams-the pinnacle of aerodynamicists-have trouble with aerodynamic calculations, from time to time. Now, imagine that Kazunori admits that the aerodynamic model in GT5 (and GT6) is not capable of achieving "a perfect simulator."

But what does this have to do with taps and what not? GT is using an aerodynamics model. There is nothing significant that happens between 0 mph and X1 speeds besides weak compressibility effects beginning around 230 mph. Those won't cause any kind of crazy instabilities or anything and you can get away with ignoring them up to around 380 mph. They might not even be modeled, and they have more impact on the design of the car rather than how it drives.

The X1 gives no more trouble than any other car. Your comment on wheels off the ground or not probably has nothing to do with GT aero modeling. All it would take to model that would be a panel method, or some generic model based on a potential flow cylinder. I doubt that GT models wheels aerodynamically at all though. The forces from the wings and fans are just summed and applied to the tires.

And, gamerdog, I did not say that those speeds are impossible. I'm simply saying that the physics system cannot handle the speeds of X- cars, accurately

What about flight sims with speeds 5-10 times as fast as the X1? I can provide some with aerodynamics models lightyears ahead of GT5.

but I refute your ideas. I've studied, albeit partially, as an aerodynamicist myself. Then, I found out that there's too much guessing and trial-and-error involved, and gave up.

How would studying aerodynamics allow you to refute ideas on modeling limitations? There isn't really any guessing in aerodynamics by the way, and the trial and error gets you know where unless your trials are very well informed and grounded in theory.

 

[gamerdog6482]

What about flight sims with speeds 5-10 times as fast as the X1? I can provide some with aerodynamics models lightyears ahead of GT5.

Just want to point out that Light years are a measurement of distance, not time.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Just want to point out that Light years are a measurement of distance, not time.

The first time in history you've proven yourself correct, regarding a scientific principle. 👍

 

[gamerdog6482]

Hey, don't mess with my scientific principles. I am a walking dictionary of them.
But I'm just trying to resolve any confusion: this is an opinion thread, any of it's contents should be taken as opinions.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Hey, don't mess with my scientific principles. I am a walking dictionary of them.
But I'm just trying to resolve any confusion: this is an opinion thread, any of it's contents should be taken as opinions.

Agreed. Having studied in both Germany and Canada, I know a thing or two as well.

Oh god just stop..

I was complimenting gamerdog, and trying to put our petty arguments behind us, as we had finally agreed on something. Is that okay?

 

[Bopop4]

I haven't seen this MrMelancholy15 guy a lot before but I like him.
Keep up the good work sir. 👍

 

[locoman88]

Agreed. Having studied in both Germany and Canada, I know a thing or two as well.

I was complimenting gamerdog, and trying to put our petty arguments behind us, as we had finally agreed on something. Is that okay?

Oh my bad. I thought you were being sarcastic. okay by gones be bygones.

 

[gamerdog6482]

Agreed. Having studied in both Germany and Canada, I know a thing or two as well.



I was complimenting gamerdog, and trying to put our petty arguments behind us, as we had finally agreed on something. Is that okay?

Well, yes, but the way you said it was a bit condescending.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

I haven't seen this MrMelancholy15 guy a lot before but I like him.
Keep up the good work sir. 👍

Heh, sorta; I created the "Favourite GT5 overtake thread" which you were commenting on: your pass in FM4 at Tsukuba, and my comments, about wondering why Tsukuba always makes the closest racing.


Thanks though! BTW, you're in Guelph area? I'm actually currently close-by. I remember, from an earlier thread, that you race karts at the local oval... I almost joined that!

Well, yes, but the way you said it was a bit condescending.

It's never my intention to offend other people. I simply stand up for myself, my country (countries) and what I believe.

 

[rjbaked]

Jay Leno Tank car
Kübelwagen
Schwimmwagen
Prius
Honda Odyssey and other vans/trucks. I hate the trucks, but if they gave us the Nascar Trucks I'd be happy

 

[shirakawaa]

The five cars that every user in this thread DOES WANT to see in GT6 would be a good choice.

 

[D3ATHS1NBUNCH3S]

The five cars that every user in this thread DOES WANT to see in GT6 would be a good choice.

Been taken already, unfortunatly.