The level up/credit/xp system in this game is broken

[BobK]

I'm at level 25 atm, and can't say I've done any grinding so far..

Okay, but...

Had to race indy 10 times to pass lvl23 since you can't drive that FGT before you're 24, but other then that, I've found the game most pleasing.

That, my friend, is grinding.

 

[Stephen220378]

Why isn't it a bad idea? What problem has it solved from previous well loved versions of GT?

What goal has it achieved?

Done correctly it would give you another challenge in the game, most games have a levelling system in some way, nobody complains about FPS online levelling systems for the simple fact that they're rewarding and your own skill determines how quick you level up and what gets unlocked. They can work very well, just not the way PD have chose to do it.

It's not solved any problem but then again it wasn't put in GT5 to solve a problem. If it was done right nobody would complain at all, as it happens PD made a mess of it.

 

[mr_serious]

Done correctly it would give you another challenge in the game, most games have a levelling system in some way, nobody complains about FPS online levelling systems for the simple fact that they're rewarding and your own skill determines how quick you level up and what gets unlocked. They can work very well, just not the way PD have chose to do it.

It's not solved any problem but then again it wasn't put in GT5 to solve a problem. If it was done right nobody would complain at all, as it happens PD made a mess of it.

But I would complain. It is an artificial reward mechanism that isn't necessary in a driving 'game' especially not a simulator. FPS are rarely called simulators. PD itself calls GT the real driving simulator. In that case reward mechanisms and playing constraints should also draw from real world analogs.

Otherwise you just end up with an Arcade game.

I find it hard to fantasize that I am a small racing team trying to build up funds through great racing. When I am constantly reminded that I am playing a game with artificial rewards. It starts to feel like a platformer!

They actually removed the licensing constraints, which is a real world analog of levelling and introduced a completely arcadey fantasy system.

 

[Stephen220378]

But I would complain. It is an artificial reward mechanism that isn't necessary in a driving 'game' especially not a simulator. FPS are rarely called simulators. PD itself calls GT the real driving simulator. In that case reward mechanisms and playing constraints should also draw from real world analogs.

Otherwise you just end up with an Arcade game.

I find it hard to fantasize that I am a small racing team trying to build up funds through great racing. When I am constantly reminded that I am playing a game with artificial rewards. It starts to feel like a platformer!

They actually removed the licensing constraints, which is a real world analog of levelling and introduced a completely arcadey fantasy system.

The thing is though, it is a game, not a simulator. The real driving simulator thing is just a slogan.

The GT series can't stay the same forever, it's already feeling old and done before, for the first time since the first GT in '98 I was actually unimpressed with a lot of elements in a GT game, mostly due to it feeling way too close to previous installments. Had they made the XP system half decent it would have been a welcome change and something different. They can't keep releasing the same game every 5 years with updated graphics and physics.

 

[mr_serious]

I disagree. I think Gran Turismo as a product has always had just one unique selling point and that was it's dedication to realism from the driving physics, license tests, real brands, exquisitely modelled cars and tracks (both the mesh and the mathematics).

Now it feels like a more annoying version of grid, but with better driving physics.

It was the only console racer that ever went to such great efforts to simulate driving real world cars.

All it needed was to be updated for the PS3 and HD and the best AI ever seen in a racing game and an option for physical damage. That would have been a very different version from all previous GT's and would have retained the core philosphy of the series.

Now it is like W.O.W with cars

 

[GTRL_Junior]

The game is more of a chore than it is fun. What makes this game worse than the previous GTs is that in previous games you could sell the cars you were rewarded and earn credits that way, half of the cars you're rewarded with in this game you're not allowed to sell. You have to resort to going around in circles for hours just to get enough xp/credit to buy a car to compete in the next event.

/end rant

I am with you Kyd. I don't understand why they would mess with a perfect formula. They made it very difficult doing this way hopefully a patch will fix this issue cause believe people will get bored easily if they don't do something about it. I understand they want us to collect the cars but then again, we need the money too in order to move forward, so I think they need to work in a better solution to this problem soon.

GT3 and GT4 was a good formula so I don't understand why they would change this time around and make it worse.

 

[shawtyoner]

IGN got it spot on, 10/10 simulator in a 5/10 game from what I have been reading in this thread. I guess i haven't "experienced" this my self being that its hard for me to even put in 5-6 hours a week playing (which sucks), but all that means is that this game will last years for me, which in turn is great because God knows when GT6 will pop up.

 

[imaROBOT_]

It's not actually broken. I get XP and and credits for every event I race in A-Spec. I enjoy the long XP gaps. I don't want to finish a game in 1 day, I want i to last. However I do wish you could still win prize cars over again and sell them. That always helped a lot.

Indy race takes a total of 3-4mins, so he spent only 30-40mins. Plus everyone knows in GT you race the same track multiple times to get that first place spot or time. If that's called grinding then it's been that way in every GT game.

 

[Stephen220378]

I disagree. I think Gran Turismo as a product has always had just one unique selling point and that was it's dedication to realism from the driving physics, license tests, real brands, exquisitely modelled cars and tracks (both the mesh and the mathematics).

Now it feels like a more annoying version of grid, but with better driving physics.

It was the only console racer that ever went to such great efforts to simulate driving real world cars.

All it needed was to be updated for the PS3 and HD and the best AI ever seen in a racing game and an option for physical damage. That would have been a very different version from all previous GT's and would have retained the core philosphy of the series.

Now it is like W.O.W with cars

It's unique selling point no longer exists, driving games are ten a penny when it comes to real brands and cars, the physics are the best on offer but the racing is not. Note that everything you mentioned you think GT's selling point is didn't include anything about the gameplay, why? Because it's become stale and boring and you get the feeling that you've already done it in the last GT game.

As for the XP system it's not really arcade-like, real drivers have to gain experience in lower forms of racing before they're ready to move up a level, F1 drivers for example start in kart racing then move to lower formula open wheel racing, usually move between different formulas before stepping up to GP2 as it's called now, then to the top level in F1. The XP system is just a way of recreating a drivers driving skill level as he progresses.

 

[Zecronas]

The one thing that makes the gt series unique is you have a game witch lasts much (!!) more longer then any other game.
I just name the events, car collecting and endurance racing to begin with.
With that comes the magic of the great detail that no other games on the ps3 have. Further on you have now on-line mode, but is just standing in beginner shoes it has great potential if you ask me.

Then the levelling system;
I only play in the weekends and occasionally in the evenings since I, like others, have a job and other duties.
When I hear people saying (I assume with more time then me) they have to grind a course 23 times (90k on credits --> car costing 20 million) just to get a better car or get to another level is just not stimulating my enjoyment to play this game when I reach that level. That goes the same for endurance racing to since a- and b-spec are separate!
I will never reach 100% that is also the cause of not having a wheel, but if they would fix these things for gt 6 prologue ( I assume) it would be great to play!

 

[JackC8]

I did a moderate amount of grinding to earn credits, but as my level got higher I kept finding new and more interesting events that paid even better. And I always enjoy just taking a fun car out on a fun track, even if it doesn't pay too much.

I think the amount of grinding is fine. It's challenging but not wearisome.

 

[mr_serious]

As for the XP system it's not really arcade-like, real drivers have to gain experience in lower forms of racing before they're ready to move up a level, F1 drivers for example start in kart racing then move to lower formula open wheel racing, usually move between different formulas before stepping up to GP2 as it's called now, then to the top level in F1. The XP system is just a way of recreating a drivers driving skill level as he progresses.

But they don't use some artificial mechanism. Whether they have the skills to move up to harder levels of competition is mostly decided by two factors.

Can they get the license?
Do they have enough experience or skill to win in competetive races?

That is judged in GT by how well we can operate the simulation of a car using a joypad or wheel. So many of us have played all the GT versions and were almost certainly quite capable of tackling higher formula in cheap cars the moment we started. So why artificially limit that by a stupid point system?

 

[Stephen220378]

But they don't use some artificial mechanism. Whether they have the skills to move up to harder levels of competition is mostly decided by two factors.

Can they get the license?
Do they have enough experience or skill to win in competetive races?

That is judged in GT by how well we can operate the simulation of a car using a joypad or wheel. So many of us have played all the GT versions and were almost certainly quite capable of tackling higher formula in cheap cars the moment we started. So why artificially limit that by a stupid point system?

Real racing drivers do a lot more grinding in real life than you'll do in this game to get where they are, GT is trying to recreate being a racing driver. You've got to grasp the fact that GT5 is a video game, not a driving simulator, it's made to provide entertainment, it doesn't teach you how to drive or race.

It's there because it makes a game out of it, a challenge which people buy the game for. By all accounts I could say well I've played every other Fight Night game so why do I have to go through career mode again in Fight Night Round 4, why don't I get a title shot as soon as I put the disc in because I know I'm good enough to win.

 

[GTP_BR_Octane]

game makers are missing some key points here, specially in the PS3: their public is getting older.

there's a reason why call of duty campaigns are so short: some people get really frustrated in not finishing a game, simply because it takes too long. call of duty is perfect in that sense, the offline campaign is like 8 hours long. to me, it's pretty rewarding finishing a game. simply because i cant play a 80 hours game to the end, it's too much.

when i first got into GT, i was much younger. had more free time. now i'm older, i have job, wife, i travel... and most people in my age have children as well. (me and my wife decided not sharing the ps3 with another person. no kids for us)

i wish game makers take that into account, when you make an overly long game, you end up pissing off loyal but older clients. for GT, i'll probably unlock the redbull somewhere around 2047.

i understand some people enjoy playing the same game forever. not me. i wish they had some option like F1 2010: do you want a long career or a short career? how many laps? etc. let people choose what suits them best.

PS: the A.I is atrocious. you either race alone or if you race with some balance they end up spinning you. and after that, they blindly hit you. there's absolutely no excuse for that and i hope they fix it.

I totally agree with you. Got wife and 2 kids. Travel for as long as 4 days within a week which let's me prolly 5 to 10 hours a week to play.

I just can't catch up with what the game demands in terms of grinding.

 

[GTRL_Junior]

I do understand the concept of the xp points, to make the game last longer and longer which is really good but, I think they could have done a better job with the content on this game. It's a good sim but It needs work so hopefully with the upcoming patches they will fix it.

 

[The_Kyza]

It would be great if they put prize rewards for online. Like they did in Prologue. Fun way to earn money, not boring either.

 

[mr_serious]

The XP system is just a way of recreating a drivers driving skill level as he progresses.

It is a simulator. It 'simulates' to one degree or another the past-time of competetively driving cars. Being a game, it is a simulation that attempts to distill the fun part of that activity from it's real world counterpart.

However since it is, or sorry was, a skill based game there is no need to introduce a secondary mechanism to artificial measure skill. The measure of your abilities is supposed to be measured against equal opposition on a track, the amount of times you win is the measure of your success.

Drivers don't get to enter formula 1 just by completing more races. They have to demonstrate that skill through consistent driving and victories.

When someone reaches level 10 for instance - that doesn't actually measure their ability at all. Because they could have gained that level by spending a long time doing easy races for tiny XP. It is not even a good attempt to model skill

I didn't mention the gameplay, because as I said before the gameplay was great. I would have been happy with a HD version og GT4 with better AI and full damage modelling.

I guess it's different for you, but to me Levels are not only completely unneccessary but they actually detract from my enjoyment of the game. The game has moved away from it's core values to try to emulate all the other dull arcade racers out there.

 

[Holyman]

Driving games already have several built in level systems...
1) Player skill
2) game economics (prize money vs car cost)

That's the key point for me.

It's a driving game: player skill is all and everything it's about.

With WoW and other MMORPG's, your characters effectiveness is determined by in-game enhancements like weapons and skills. In GT, it's about how good a driver you are.

If people want to grind, or just race the same race over and over again, that's what the gold medals are for.

For those of us who just want to drive different cars in different races on different tracks, we should be able to whip through at bronze and silver, unlock everything, then back-fill with gold medals if we want to be completist or rise up a Leaderboard (somewhere...).

I like driving games.

I loved GT3 & GT4.

I thought GT5 would be an evolution of the series: not some car-based RPG.

 

[fasj6418]

I just want to have all 1031 cars in my garage so i can start playing GT how i want (online and leaderboards when they happens).

The huge problem is that GT5 makes it a huge pain to achieve that. It feels like i´m taking stuff out of my way before i can actually enjoy the game.

If there´s no save, not even in a patch, there´s no way i´m doing the 24h endurances. Goodbye desired platinum, but i won´t risk my old PS3 and my social life just to grind that.

 

[imaROBOT_]

I just want to have all 1031 cars in my garage so i can start playing GT how i want (online and leaderboards when they happens).

The huge problem is that GT5 makes it a huge pain to achieve that. It feels like i´m taking stuff out of my way before i can actually enjoy the game.

If there´s no save, not even in a patch, there´s no way i´m doing the 24h endurances. Goodbye desired platinum, but i won´t risk my old PS3 and my social life just to grind that.

You want all 1031 cars and expect it to happen easily? I can understand wanting all the cars, that's a cool goal to get to, but if you need all of them before you can enjoy the game, that's a problem. It's always been hard to own every car in any GT and GT5 will be even worse.

Everyone that doesn't have a lot of time to play the game, like myself, should understand that you're not "grinding". If you don't have a lot of time that means you still have a lot of races that you probably haven't finished so you're just playing the game. Grinding would be running the Turbo Challenge High Speed Ring over and over.

If you're just having trouble with a event and have to keep doing it over and over to get gold, that is not grinding, that's just how GT has always been. Even if you're grinding GT4, 3, 2, 1 was the same. How many times would you run a race to unlock a car to sell?

That's technically grinding so I don't see why everyone is complaining when it's always been this way. Unless you're new to GT then I understand.

 

[Stephen220378]

It is a simulator. It 'simulates' to one degree or another the past-time of competetively driving cars. Being a game, it is a simulation that attempts to distill the fun part of that activity from it's real world counterpart.

However since it is, or sorry was, a skill based game there is no need to introduce a secondary mechanism to artificial measure skill. The measure of your abilities is supposed to be measured against equal opposition on a track, the amount of times you win is the measure of your success.

Drivers don't get to enter formula 1 just by completing more races. They have to demonstrate that skill through consistent driving and victories.

When someone reaches level 10 for instance - that doesn't actually measure their ability at all. Because they could have gained that level by spending a long time doing easy races for tiny XP. It is not even a good attempt to model skill

I didn't mention the gameplay, because as I said before the gameplay was great. I would have been happy with a HD version og GT4 with better AI and full damage modelling.

I guess it's different for you, but to me Levels are not only completely unneccessary but they actually detract from my enjoyment of the game. The game has moved away from it's core values to try to emulate all the other dull arcade racers out there.

Ace Combat is called a flight sim but it's not a sim, it's just a term used in the gaming world.

F1 drivers do, they must have a certain amount of experience in open wheel racing before they're considered for an FIA super licence, hence why Sebastien Loeb was denied one. It all comes down to experience, the more they race, the better they get, the more chance of gaining their super licence.

So what is it you want? All cars and events to be available from the start? There's no game in that, there's a lot of people who would lose interest quickly if PD said here's 1000 cars, 70 tracks and a handful of events, there's nothing to unlock, nothing to work for, enjoy. Watch GT's sales drop to an all time low if that ever happened.

 

[mr_serious]

That's technically grinding so I don't see why everyone is complaining when it's always been this way. Unless you're new to GT then I understand.

Because it is an unneccessary and artificial system which serves no function that couldn't be easily achieved by more realistic means in a less tedious fashion.

 

[imaROBOT_]

Because it is an unneccessary and artificial system which serves no function that couldn't be easily achieved by more realistic means in a less tedious fashion.

At least post what system you'd like to see, rather than just saying this it's easily achieved by another means..

Plus it is totally necessary. You contradict yourself by saying it's unnecessary, but you still want it in a more realistic fashion. If it was unnecessary to have a system of unlocking and they just gave you all the cars,track, events, ect. then there is no game in that.

You're also looking at it the wrong way. The level system is not a way of messuring skill. It's a way to progress through the game and achieve new events, cars, ect. by experience. If you want realistic this is pretty damn close because real race drivers have to "grind" (hate that word) through tracks over and over in the same car. There is no other way to practice and gain experience apart from racing a event.

 

[mr_serious]

simulate verb (simulated, simulating) 1 to convincingly recreate (a set of conditions or a real-life event), especially for the purposes of training. 2 to assume a false appearance of someone or something. 3 to pretend to have, do or feel • She simulated anger. simulated adj not genuine; imitation • simulated leather. simulation noun 1 simulating; something that is simulated. 2 any model of a system or process • computer traffic simulation program.
ETYMOLOGY: 17c: from Latin simulare.

There is no stipulation that a simulation be accurate. The quality of the simulation model is not what defines whether something is a simulation or not.

A game that simulates car racing badly is just as much a simulator as one that does it better. A commercial testing /planning simulation is just a much better model than a game and doesn't try to filter out the tedious elements of the real world sytem it is modelling.

So what is it you want? All cars and events to be available from the start? There's no game in that, there's a lot of people who would lose interest quickly if PD said here's 1000 cars, 70 tracks and a handful of events, there's nothing to unlock, nothing to work for, enjoy. Watch GT's sales drop to an all time low if that ever happened.

That is precisely what I want.

You buy a crap first car and race it in some competitive events that challenge your skills. So there are a whole bunch of multi race championships for stock ordinary cars. With prizes awarded according to your finishing place.

Events have normal constraints like real events ie Car, license ie the 'Formula'

As you win more money you can buy better cars. As your skill improves you can beat the licenses (as it used to be) and enter more races. You should be able to enter the hardest race in the game if you can fulfill the car requirements and if you don't yet have the skills to win it, practice more.

At the moment, whether I have the skills to win the hardest race in the game doesn't matter because I have to compete in an arbitrary number of races to prove to the computer that I am worthy. Rather than simply using a familiar constraint - money and my ability to win against a decent AI.

 

[imaROBOT_]

At the moment, whether I have the skills to win the hardest race in the game doesn't matter because I have to compete in an arbitrary number of races to prove to the computer that I am worthy. Rather than simply using a familiar constraint - money and my ability to win against a decent AI.

Just like in real life, aka realistically, you have to prove to someone you are worthy to enter said race. The only way to prove this is by experince, and that's what you having to do in this game is gain experience. Doesn't matter if you are very good at the game and can already race in the extreme races. This is a game and you are starting from ground up in a career as a new driver.

 

[mr_serious]

At least post what system you'd like to see, rather than just saying this it's easily achieved by another means..

Plus it is totally necessary. You contradict yourself by saying it's unnecessary, but you still want it in a more realistic fashion. If it was unnecessary to have a system of unlocking and they just gave you all the cars,track, events, ect. then there is no game in that.

You're also looking at it the wrong way. The level system is not a way of messuring skill. It's a way to progress through the game and achieve new events, cars, ect. by experience. If you want realistic this is pretty damn close because real race drivers have to "grind" (hate that word) through tracks over and over in the same car. There is no other way to practice and gain experience apart from racing a event.

The progression through the game should be defined ecnomically just as it is in real life.

The more skills you have the more money you win, the better cars you can buy and the better you can tune them. This allows you to enter races which have more expensive (car and tuning wise) constraints.

This avoids the artifical situation where you have enough money to buy a car, but because your profile doesn't meet an arbitrary level requirement they won't sell it to you? This can happen with ultimate sports cars from say McLaren or Ferrari ,but I've never heard of it happening for a GTO or skyline for instance.

And why does it prevent you from even seeing what events are available past a level that you haven't reached. It is completey artificial to stop a beginner from even seeing what events are available to someone at expert level and I don't see what purpose it serves except to make planning your purchases impossible.

It is totally unrealistc and there is already the limiting factor of money which can only be acquired in the exact same way they are parcelling out XP. The difference is, that money is a real world construct that already achieves the aim of having content not immediately available to anticpate and strive for.

 

[mr_serious]

Just like in real life, aka realistically, you have to prove to someone you are worthy to enter said race. The only way to prove this is by experince, and that's what you having to do in this game is gain experience. Doesn't matter if you are very good at the game and can already race in the extreme races. This is a game and you are starting from ground up in a career as a new driver.

In a racing driver the proof is in results - measured by wins rather than the quantity of races you have entered - which is what the levelling system measures.

 

[imaROBOT_]

Check out my new post you might have missed.

It is realistic to have to gain racing experience to enter a race. Just because I can afford a F1 car does not mean they will let me race. Even if I pass a license they won't just throw me in. They will want me to practice and gain experience.

In a racing driver the proof is in results - measured by wins rather than the quantity of races you have entered - which is what the levelling system measures.

Exactly! You have to win races to gain experience and that's what you do in this game. The more wins, the more experience you get and then the higher level races become available to you. Money can not be the only factor in deciding if you are good enough to race. Yes they have license test, but that's not how it works in real life. You need experience and you can't deny that..

 

[mr_serious]

Check out my new post you might have missed.

It is realistic to have to gain racing experience to enter a race. Just because I can afford a F1 car does not mean they will let me race. Even if I pass a license they won't just throw me in. They will want me to practice and gain experience.



Exactly! You have to win races to gain experience and that's what you do in this game. The more wins, the more experience you get and then the higher level races become available to you. Money can not be the only factor in deciding if you are good enough to race. Yes they have license test, but that's not how it works in real life. You need experience and you can't deny that..

Your experience is measured by whether you have acquired enough prize money to afford things - don't you see? So the XP system is actually completely unneccessary. It provides no new function except irritation and detracts from the realism of the game.

 

[mr_serious]

Check out my new post you might have missed.

It is realistic to have to gain racing experience to enter a race. Just because I can afford a F1 car does not mean they will let me race. Even if I pass a license they won't just throw me in. They will want me to practice and gain experience.



Exactly! You have to win races to gain experience and that's what you do in this game. The more wins, the more experience you get and then the higher level races become available to you. Money can not be the only factor in deciding if you are good enough to race. Yes they have license test, but that's not how it works in real life. You need experience and you can't deny that..

So can you tell me how many experience points does Lewis Hamilton have? Or Michael Schumacher? Sebastien Vettel?