- 6,009
- Austin, Texas
- D-Nitrate / GTP_DNitrate
The "Online Boost" demystified
- Thread starter unimental
- 431 comments
- 33,903 views
- 401
- GTP_mindwise
- xbox?, my pc you mean?
It's clear there was a rubberbanding effect before, but things apparently evolved.
Allow me to propose we concentrate on the current situation rather then on (before)yesterdays
Perhaps update the firstpost Unimental ?
---
Btw Sphinx, did you really need to add the word "only" ?
"the EVO that would normally only produce a 2'12.??? or perhaps a 2'11"
Allow me to propose we concentrate on the current situation rather then on (before)yesterdays
Perhaps update the firstpost Unimental ?
---
Btw Sphinx, did you really need to add the word "only" ?
"the EVO that would normally only produce a 2'12.??? or perhaps a 2'11"
Sphinx
Staff Emeritus
- 6,723
- England
- GTP_Sphinx
No, the problem is that you can't see that I am NOT disagreeing with that... yet you keep trying to argue that I am.
OK, so you now agree that it was there in abundance?
- 6,009
- Austin, Texas
- D-Nitrate / GTP_DNitrate
No.... as anyone with any understanding of what an subjective opinion is will tell you, that what you may consider abundant is not what others may consider abundant... and if you are going to get into an argument every time someone doesn’t share your own personal subjective opinion, you are going to find it very difficult to get along with people who don't share your personal opinions.
Are you also planning to start fighting over which is better, vanilla or chocolate?
Just let it go. You shared your personal opinion on just how abundant you thought it was... and have repeated it over and over and over again, and despite some anecdotal evidence that it appears even that may not be the case any longer you continue to argue... truly unreal.
For the sake of civility, fine, you’ve crushed me into submission…
From here on out, what ever your personal opinion is, I support it.
Feel better now?
Are you also planning to start fighting over which is better, vanilla or chocolate?
Just let it go. You shared your personal opinion on just how abundant you thought it was... and have repeated it over and over and over again, and despite some anecdotal evidence that it appears even that may not be the case any longer you continue to argue... truly unreal.
For the sake of civility, fine, you’ve crushed me into submission…
From here on out, what ever your personal opinion is, I support it.
Feel better now?
- 1,660
- P3nT4gR4m666
I'm still a bit shy of 2:00 mins on suzuka in the GTlm. Best I can manage online, with a 20sec lead is about 2:06
That might sound believable to some people but, honestly, 2:01-2:03 is a bog standard ghost lap for me. I could hotlap for an hour and pretty much every lap would be in this range. Unless I was pushing for a record then it'd be a mix of 2:01 and just below and lots of laps involving gravel traps
So I'm definitely being slowed down online. I've never gone under this online tho cos I always seem to hit traffic if I've been punted off the track or something and that slows me right down.
That might sound believable to some people but, honestly, 2:01-2:03 is a bog standard ghost lap for me. I could hotlap for an hour and pretty much every lap would be in this range. Unless I was pushing for a record then it'd be a mix of 2:01 and just below and lots of laps involving gravel traps
So I'm definitely being slowed down online. I've never gone under this online tho cos I always seem to hit traffic if I've been punted off the track or something and that slows me right down.
Sphinx
Staff Emeritus
- 6,723
- England
- GTP_Sphinx
No.... as anyone with any understanding of what an objective opinion is will tell you, that what you may consider abundant is not what others may consider abundant... and if you are going to get into an argument every time someone doesnt share your own personal objective opinion, you are going to find it very difficult to get along with people who don't share your personal opinions.
Are you also planning to start fighting over which is better, vanilla or chocolate?
Just let it go. You shared your personal opinion on just how abundant you thought it was... and have repeated it over and over and over again, and despite some anecdotal evidence that it appears even that may not be the case any longer you continue to argue... truly unreal.
For the sake of civility, fine, youve crushed me into submission from here on out, what ever your personal opinion is, I support it. Feel better now?
I could've backed up my opinion up with tangible evidence, it's shame that you couldn't do the same. I also found it very strange for you to be a self-confessed "data head" and yet not take up the opportunity of viewing such valuable data. Go figure!
- 3,118
- Sunnyvale, CA
- GTP_Vaxen
Sphinx has identified a statistical outlier, and is proposing an explanation: that an artificial boost was applied by the game to enable a time which cannot be equaled except under similar circumstances. Several other players have reported similar experiences, though without the same degree of proof (recorded evidence of the event).
Outliers are fairly common in statistics, and tend to be problematic when trying to draw conclusions from observations. As such, it becomes important to explain them so that the data can either be included or rejected in the dataset. The usual cause of an outlier is measurement error, but that can be disregarded in this case (since we have recorded proof of the event in question).
That leaves one of two explanations:
1) Sphinx had a legitimately spectacular lap time, not unlike the long jump record set by Bob Beamon in the 1968 Mexico City Olympics.
2) The game applied a boost to players in the back of the field, which makes it possible to record lap times not possible under other circumstances.
In isolation, both of these are roughly equally possible (there is not enough evidence to select one over the other). However, with each data points come in reporting a similar experience (acquiring a personal best time, but only under similar circumstances), it becomes increasingly unlikely that (1) is the explanation, leaving us with (2) as the most likely explanation of the observed outliers.
This falls short of a scientific proof, but I would instead suggest that it does shift the burden of proof to anyone claiming that boost was not present.
All that said, it's a far more difficult task to prove that the boost no longer exists with the methods given above.
Outliers are fairly common in statistics, and tend to be problematic when trying to draw conclusions from observations. As such, it becomes important to explain them so that the data can either be included or rejected in the dataset. The usual cause of an outlier is measurement error, but that can be disregarded in this case (since we have recorded proof of the event in question).
That leaves one of two explanations:
1) Sphinx had a legitimately spectacular lap time, not unlike the long jump record set by Bob Beamon in the 1968 Mexico City Olympics.
2) The game applied a boost to players in the back of the field, which makes it possible to record lap times not possible under other circumstances.
In isolation, both of these are roughly equally possible (there is not enough evidence to select one over the other). However, with each data points come in reporting a similar experience (acquiring a personal best time, but only under similar circumstances), it becomes increasingly unlikely that (1) is the explanation, leaving us with (2) as the most likely explanation of the observed outliers.
This falls short of a scientific proof, but I would instead suggest that it does shift the burden of proof to anyone claiming that boost was not present.
All that said, it's a far more difficult task to prove that the boost no longer exists with the methods given above.
- 180
- GTP_DarthDrift
In my opinion, the boost effect still exists, and my belief is that it exists in the form of car weight adjustment. The car slides around more, accelerates more slowly and brakes more slowly because of the additional weight. People describe it as feeling sluggish when they're leading because it is!
I don't have the tangible video proof to back up my claims, but I know when I run a clean lap and roughly what I should be able to achieve currently in Suzuka 600pp, which is a 2:20 on the first lap starting from pole and a 2:18 on the 2nd and 3rd laps.
The fact that when we have small races with good drivers staying closely in touch and we're able to run consistent ~2:20 laps and sub 7:00min race times, versus races when folks are all spread out and I can only manage clean 2:26s and 7:20min races is proof that something is going on. Also, I believe I have run a ~2:13 when I was punted off a couple times and trying to catch up, when I can never do that under normal circumstances.
I have also noticed that when I race in the same car (same color too!) against a driver that has comparable skill to me (Simcoeace) and we are separated by several seconds, we are able to catch each other by leaps and bounds while running clean laps when that really should not be possible. Then once the pass is made, the driver that was a rocket ship cannot pull away.
So, my conclusion is that THE BOOST IS STILL THERE, even though it may have been modified from the previous update. I didn't read the whole thread, but that seems to be what people are debating now.
I don't have the tangible video proof to back up my claims, but I know when I run a clean lap and roughly what I should be able to achieve currently in Suzuka 600pp, which is a 2:20 on the first lap starting from pole and a 2:18 on the 2nd and 3rd laps.
The fact that when we have small races with good drivers staying closely in touch and we're able to run consistent ~2:20 laps and sub 7:00min race times, versus races when folks are all spread out and I can only manage clean 2:26s and 7:20min races is proof that something is going on. Also, I believe I have run a ~2:13 when I was punted off a couple times and trying to catch up, when I can never do that under normal circumstances.
I have also noticed that when I race in the same car (same color too!) against a driver that has comparable skill to me (Simcoeace) and we are separated by several seconds, we are able to catch each other by leaps and bounds while running clean laps when that really should not be possible. Then once the pass is made, the driver that was a rocket ship cannot pull away.
So, my conclusion is that THE BOOST IS STILL THERE, even though it may have been modified from the previous update. I didn't read the whole thread, but that seems to be what people are debating now.
- 6,009
- Austin, Texas
- D-Nitrate / GTP_DNitrate
Sphinx has once again completely missed the point, and continues to confuse objective opinion (the past and possibly present existence of some form of handicap) with subjective opinion (whether or not one personally feels it is "abundant", and no, his, mine, or anyones lap time doesn't change how "abundant" it is for EVERYONE, because everyone has their own personal opinion on what they consider "abundant" to mean... Sphinx seems stuck on the fact that only his definition of abundant is meaningful and that we, or specifically I should share his opinion on what exactly is "abundant")... and most importantly, and most unfortunately, he apparently continues to have no desire to let this go.
So just for him and once again, in hopes it will some how get him to move on...
"Everything Sphinx says and believes, I believe as well!"
- Digital-Nitrate
So just for him and once again, in hopes it will some how get him to move on...
"Everything Sphinx says and believes, I believe as well!"
- Digital-Nitrate
- 307
- New Zealand
- rexc
The boost is definately still there in some form since the last update and is VERY noticable around the London expert course, mainly I think because it is such a short circuit.
My lines around around London are quite consisitent now and in free run I can comfortably do sub 1.05s lap after lap. In a tight race with just a couple of cars right behind me my lap times will usually be in the low to mid 1.05s. However, get half a dozen cars all strung out and my lap times are in the 1.07s no matter how clean the lap.
Someone else also mentioned they though the boost effect was now about 2 seconds a lap since the last update. This may explain why it is now not very noticable around a long circut like Suzuka , but certainly is on a short circuit like London.
My lines around around London are quite consisitent now and in free run I can comfortably do sub 1.05s lap after lap. In a tight race with just a couple of cars right behind me my lap times will usually be in the low to mid 1.05s. However, get half a dozen cars all strung out and my lap times are in the 1.07s no matter how clean the lap.
Someone else also mentioned they though the boost effect was now about 2 seconds a lap since the last update. This may explain why it is now not very noticable around a long circut like Suzuka , but certainly is on a short circuit like London.
- 609
- Haifa
- GTP_DTWmetro
Maybe, but by continuing to post, it suggests the same about you.
Thanks for that useful post, Vaxen. I doubt it was an outlier, seeing as it was before the update. Now, however, I found myself a good 20 seconds behind drama-kyd, and I continued to fall further and further behind. If the boost is still there, it's been extremely minimized.
- 9,437
- Portland, OR
- Jump_Ace
- JUMPxACE
This is a good discussion and this boost thing is another reason that I stopped racing online. It totally defeats the purpose of racing online to see who is faster. Drafting is enough 'boost' for any driver imo. Someone let me know (Jerry ) when they have evidence that PD and the boyz stopped using it.
Jerome
) when they have evidence that PD and the boyz stopped using it. Jerome
- 78
I must admit it feels less pronounced than before, I actually won by some 20 seconds earlier today. Admittedly the other driwer was a complete ****, but still. Pre-update you'd easily catch up almost however you drove the car.
- 3,118
- Sunnyvale, CA
- GTP_Vaxen
I think it's gone but still something is just crazy. Sometimes I am really speeding away from the pack.....almost 10 seconds making no mistake but sometimes for example when racing in Suzuka....I make the hard left turn and I can see from my rear mirror the guy way behind and it feels like he's drafting behind me. Sometimes It feels like "the Force" is holding my car back, so that the ones behind, can catch up to me. Anyone having this problem?
Timppaq
Premium
- 5,137
- Helsinki
- GTP_Timppaq
It really is there, but sometimes feels like they are doing some tests on the fly..? I remember one race that there were Truth123, me, and honeycar (was closing on us). Me and truth had about 4-5 sec lead over honeycar and no boost was apparent, then when we crossed the line for the last lap, the grip level decreased instatly to something like 90% of normal and car felt like a ship.. we barely managed to powerslide the 1st corner, but it was a close.. I got scared and when I looked in the mirror I saw honeycar on the kitty litter... 
PD must be proud of this. How can you have a race, when suddenly everything changes?????
And another thing. This has happened twice to me at suz600. While leading you take a corner perfectly normal, no mistakes or anything. Then, suddenly you feel like a punter would be driving inside of you as you get instant "bumb" from somewhere and have to do every trick in the book to keep it on the road. Like someone would have been racing a invisible + ghost car on the same race, but a bug made it to collide with my car... go figure. Might also be too much playing on holiday.
PD must be proud of this. How can you have a race, when suddenly everything changes?????
And another thing. This has happened twice to me at suz600. While leading you take a corner perfectly normal, no mistakes or anything. Then, suddenly you feel like a punter would be driving inside of you as you get instant "bumb" from somewhere and have to do every trick in the book to keep it on the road. Like someone would have been racing a invisible + ghost car on the same race, but a bug made it to collide with my car... go figure. Might also be too much playing on holiday.
It really is there, but sometimes feels like they are doing some tests on the fly..? I remember one race that there were Truth123, me, and honeycar (was closing on us). Me and truth had about 4-5 sec lead over honeycar and no boost was apparent, then when we crossed the line for the last lap, the grip level decreased instatly to something like 90% of normal and car felt like a ship.. we barely managed to powerslide the 1st corner, but it was a close.. I got scared and when I looked in the mirror I saw honeycar on the kitty litter...
PD must be proud of this. How can you have a race, when suddenly everything changes?????
And another thing. This has happened twice to me at suz600. While leading you take a corner perfectly normal, no mistakes or anything. Then, suddenly you feel like a punter would be driving inside of you as you get instant "bumb" from somewhere and have to do every trick in the book to keep it on the road. Like someone would have been racing a invisible + ghost car on the same race, but a bug made it to collide with my car... go figure. Might also be too much playing on holiday.
In all honesty, i think some of us are getting a little paranoid now. Sure, the boost is still there, however it has been greatly refined and reduced. In my opinion the handicap that was given to the leader is now gone unless there is a huge gap between 1st and 2nd place. The boost for the cars trailing is still there, however the boost is non existent or very minimal if one is 0-5 seconds behind the leader. This is all from my experience racing online while leading and trailing. If you are very far from the pack you definitely are getting a boost, whether it be more power or/and more grip i don't know.
My tests: All in an Audi R8 at suzuka 600pp.
-While trailing by about 30 seconds i was able to run a 2'10 lap time at suzuka 600pp in an Audi R8.
-While trailing by 3 seconds I ran a 2'16 lap time with the R8.
-While leading I ran a 2'16 lap time. 2nd place was 4 seconds behind and last place had been lapped cause the person was not racing.
-While leading the race, but with the 2nd place car 15+ seconds behind i started noticing the car slipping and my lap times increased to 2'20.
This is by no means anything official, just what I have observed.
- 7,986
- GTP_Royalton
Something about the boost has definitely changed. I could only take 130R at Suzuka no faster then 130mph in previous online races, but yesterday I tried Suzuka 750pp for the first time in weeks in a Ford GT Test Car, and I took 130R at 143mph. That's trek450 speed through that corner.
Overall the car just felt faster through out the lap. I couldn't get a lap time because entering the last left hander of spoon I got punted.
I was in the lead too, so the boost for the leader appears to have been reduced, but read angelx's post just above this one. It's not completley gone, but has changed for the better.
Overall the car just felt faster through out the lap. I couldn't get a lap time because entering the last left hander of spoon I got punted.
I was in the lead too, so the boost for the leader appears to have been reduced, but read angelx's post just above this one. It's not completley gone, but has changed for the better.
- 1,660
- P3nT4gR4m666
Sorry to bump this old dead thread but I have an update for you.
My first race today on 750pp Fuji had a grid of 10 of those TEAM_mixi weirdos in low powered cars (I've seen them before and I think it's a drifting thing), myself and one other guy in a tuned vette.
True to form the mixi guys all pulled off to the sides at the start, so I got a clean getaway, followed into the first bend by the vette, who was a dot in my mirror by t2.
Sector 1 I was leading him by 5 secs, s2 about 10 and so on... by the end of the race I was 25 secs clear but here's the interesting bit - all my laps, which were pretty clean and consistent, were 1'44 and change.
I average about 1'39-1'40 round here in freerun, with a PB of 1'38. All of the laps I did in this race would have been in that range, perhaps a low 1'41 at the outside. But I was lapping 1'44.
What struck me as interesting was the fact that the 4sec penalty (where ever it came from) did not change as my lead increased. I think the general consensus round these parts was that it had a cumulative/rubber band effect but my findings show otherwise. It seems they just slap you with a 4sec penalty for being in front.
A couple of races later I started with a small grid of only 3 other cars. Same deal - I pulled away in front but this time there was a S2000 only 1sec behind me at s1. I'd pulled 3secs and change on him by s2 and ended up 15 secs clear. My laps? All between 1'44.1 and 1'44.3
So that's my conclusion - in 750pp being in front is a fixed 4sec penalty. Odd thing was the car felt exactly the same, no loss of traction, same braking points, same entry/exit speeds. That's definitely a change since the update - used to be you could feel it.
My first race today on 750pp Fuji had a grid of 10 of those TEAM_mixi weirdos in low powered cars (I've seen them before and I think it's a drifting thing), myself and one other guy in a tuned vette.
True to form the mixi guys all pulled off to the sides at the start, so I got a clean getaway, followed into the first bend by the vette, who was a dot in my mirror by t2.
Sector 1 I was leading him by 5 secs, s2 about 10 and so on... by the end of the race I was 25 secs clear but here's the interesting bit - all my laps, which were pretty clean and consistent, were 1'44 and change.
I average about 1'39-1'40 round here in freerun, with a PB of 1'38. All of the laps I did in this race would have been in that range, perhaps a low 1'41 at the outside. But I was lapping 1'44.
What struck me as interesting was the fact that the 4sec penalty (where ever it came from) did not change as my lead increased. I think the general consensus round these parts was that it had a cumulative/rubber band effect but my findings show otherwise. It seems they just slap you with a 4sec penalty for being in front.
A couple of races later I started with a small grid of only 3 other cars. Same deal - I pulled away in front but this time there was a S2000 only 1sec behind me at s1. I'd pulled 3secs and change on him by s2 and ended up 15 secs clear. My laps? All between 1'44.1 and 1'44.3
So that's my conclusion - in 750pp being in front is a fixed 4sec penalty. Odd thing was the car felt exactly the same, no loss of traction, same braking points, same entry/exit speeds. That's definitely a change since the update - used to be you could feel it.
- 784
- new zealand
- ripping_silk
there certainly no consistency with lap times online. In an Amuse, toward the front, a good lap for me would be say 39 flat. But chasing the pack after being punted I've managed a low 35. the laps felt as good as each other.
I just started driving an f430 at Fuji. Tonight my best total race time was a 5'06", for a third or 4th. A couple of races later, I drove a race about the same pace, won by 8 seconds, but total time was 5'26", and yet i pushed the same, and it felt close to my other races pace... So I dunno.
ps GTP_P3nT4gR4m, sorry for stuffing your vision with my smoke and dust clouds as I pirouetted off in front of you earlier!
I just started driving an f430 at Fuji. Tonight my best total race time was a 5'06", for a third or 4th. A couple of races later, I drove a race about the same pace, won by 8 seconds, but total time was 5'26", and yet i pushed the same, and it felt close to my other races pace... So I dunno.
ps GTP_P3nT4gR4m, sorry for stuffing your vision with my smoke and dust clouds as I pirouetted off in front of you earlier!
- 297
- GTP_BonzoHarry
Right, I believe before they added weight to slow you down, and now they just subtract power. Which is why there aren't as many people complaining about it, because they're brake points and turning still feel the same, they just don't accelerate as fast.
- 1,660
- P3nT4gR4m666
No need to apologise I was just glad to get in front of you. Don't know if I could have lived with the indignity of being pwnt by an F430.
Awesome performance mate!
(apart from the last bit)
- 757
- Hong Kong
- andrewyhy
You're absolutely right! I did a best lap of 1'37.5XX (in my Ford GT '06) in free run, but in actual race, the more you're leading away from the pack, the slower your car will be. Although I've pushed my GT '06 to its limits, I can only do around 1'39 to 1'40 per lap (at best).. that's really frustrating that the rubber band effect restricts the leaders from getting away from the pack. I think it'll be best to let those at the back to have a speed boost, without slowing down the leaders! 💡
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- 1,090
- Australia
- OnlineGT
Yes thats right, its slows your acceleration down, and that reduced take off speed onto the straight has a big effect by the time you hit the finish line.
- 3,164
- AMSTERDAM
- spyrrari
I had the feeling that,as soon you are leading,the tyres go back one level....
It doesn't feel different as for example,you loose grip in midturns suddenly,or that the power is cut when in the lead....
It feels like the OVERALL handling of the car becomes somewhat less,so with accelarating/braking/cornering everything just a bit...
So IMO as soon as you're leading you get(for example)S1 in stead of S2 tyres and your laptimes will fall without noticing a dramatic difference..........
spyrrari.
It doesn't feel different as for example,you loose grip in midturns suddenly,or that the power is cut when in the lead....
It feels like the OVERALL handling of the car becomes somewhat less,so with accelarating/braking/cornering everything just a bit...
So IMO as soon as you're leading you get(for example)S1 in stead of S2 tyres and your laptimes will fall without noticing a dramatic difference..........
spyrrari.
- 1,660
- P3nT4gR4m666
If the tyre on my GT06 suddenly went from R2 to R1 I'd be all over the place. That's point I was trying to make, there was no discernable difference. Same entry speeds (means my accelleration had to be the same to reach it. Same exit speeds (handling was the same through the corner).
Prior to the update I did notice differences in handling, braking and even which gear I was in coming up to a braking zone but now I couldn't tell you what is different. I'll be honest, I'm mystified. I just don't know what's going on but there's definitely a massive difference.
The only thing that makes any sense is that maybe there's no penalty and somehow the timer is wrong. I'm not the best driver on the track but I am very consistent in freerun - the last couple of sessions I've done my times have varied in the 0.2 region. I knocked 0.5 of my PB today with a new setup tweak and all 10 or so laps were within 0.2 of 1'38.3 If I'd shot a 1.44 I'd have known exactly where the problem(s) occurred but online there are no problems, everything feels exactly the same.
