The penalty analysis thread

[Cerebral303]

Great thread idea. I've enjoyed watching the videos. Last week I had the biggest punting off, and was surprised when I got a penalty and they didn't.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

All is lost. If not even people watching a replay can spot an obvious punt, how could any algorithm ever do it?
We probably need to wait for Google Deep Mind to enter the game...
See you. NOT.

You didn't even have the right exit line let alone enough speed to throw yourself to the edge of the track and then you're surprised when the trailing car's natural exit line overlaps yours? At 0:11 seconds the car is clearly on your rear flank and instead of staying left you begin to fade towards the next apex before you're even past the kerb on the left. I've been in the other driver's shoes and in order for a late apex overtake to work on turn 1 the leading car needs to stay wide after the overlap. So that little fade right you were doing was either you being oblivious to the natural exit line or you were willfully trying to passive aggressively block his exit line and you paid the price for it.

On the initial impact it's a racing incident. Without the other driver's view we can't tell if he was losing his mind or as Sven suggested, just losing control with dirty tires.

 

[gtpierre]

Great thread idea. I've enjoyed watching the videos. Last week I had the biggest punting off, and was surprised when I got a penalty and they didn't.

Classic. I got a similar one but with 4s on Friday. The 2-3-4s is really random isn't it?

That being said you deserved something imo(SR-), because the bump you did at 4s probably gave him a SR-. I can't stand these, I'm getting 10 of these per race, I get SR- for each and i end up losing SR when i drove clean the whole way.

 

[ASH32]

@Cerebral303 It looks like you may have touched the Greek driver before that punt and they likely went off the track hence your penalty. Not sure why the one who punted you didn't get anything but maybe the game saw it as all one incident, which it blamed you for.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Great thread idea. I've enjoyed watching the videos. Last week I had the biggest punting off, and was surprised when I got a penalty and they didn't.

Looks like a case of who goes off first. He carries more speed and you have the bad luck of spinning into a section where the track limits are extended. (Probably to the white line after the grass strip). The algorithm is dumb, he crossed the track limits first, you get the penalty

@Cerebral303 It looks like you may have touched the Greek driver before that punt and they likely went off the track hence your penalty. Not sure why the one who punted you didn't get anything but maybe the game saw it as all one incident, which it blamed you for.

Good spot! Yep there was definite contact with the greek driver, who gets wiped out by the same punter. The Greek driver definitely left the road before @Cerebral303. Part of first contact, other car went off first.

 

[sturk0167]

Here's a good one, from this morning. I got a penalty on the straight, for doing nothing, but then on the following turn, when I probably deserved one, I get no penalty.

Any idea, @Sven Jurgens, @Groundfish ?

 

[Groundfish]

@sturk0167 looks like side contact on the straight followed by lack of track limit when he ran off.
So side contact gives sr down and opponent off track could be false negative
caused by game not detecting him as ‘off’
track.
Reality he was wrong squeezing into you or there wouldn’t have been first side hit...

 

[Cerebral303]

@Cerebral303 It looks like you may have touched the Greek driver before that punt and they likely went off the track hence your penalty. Not sure why the one who punted you didn't get anything but maybe the game saw it as all one incident, which it blamed you for.

Ah, that will be it. Even when I watch the replay I am surprised the collision detection hits in at that point, I know I was coming in hot rather than cautious, but thought I would just make it. Of course, I hadn't noticed the fact the Greek driver being punted means the system sees me hit him first, and then him leave the track. Thanks, makes sense now!

Classic. I got a similar one but with 4s on Friday. The 2-3-4s is really random isn't it?

That being said you deserved something imo(SR-), because the bump you did at 4s probably gave him a SR-.

Yeah, SR- would have been fine They seem to be very common in Supra races like you say.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Here's a good one, from this morning. I got a penalty on the straight, for doing nothing, but then on the following turn, when I probably deserved one, I get no penalty.

Any idea, @Sven Jurgens, @Groundfish ?

Second might also have been lag. The bumps don't seem to affect your car at all so perhaps the game only saw it as bumps on his client.
SR Down on the straight is just bull as normal. It could be because of DR. You are DR.B there, he's DR.C or was perhaps still DR.D (he just moved up to DR.C today)

 

[Sven Jurgens]

I did 3 races on Kyotobiyamiwagimaya, then I lost my appetite for racing so I made some more incident videos.

First the one penalty I got tonight, no clue why I got singled out here. No one else got a penalty, except that it looks like the Brazilian (who was bumping people out of the way earlier) seems to have gotten himself disqualified.

It's a complicated one. 6th hit 5th, which caused me, in 7th, to hit 6th, then 8th didn't brake much at all and punted me back into 6th, who then punted 5th off to get punted off himself by my residual momentum. I guess since I was the only survivor (8th getting thrown out) I ended up with the penalty.

Next side contact in a corner, I get SR Down. I get the feeling that as long as you don't go off, the outside / ahead car pretty much always ends up with the SR Down. See the next 2 incidents as well.


This one contact nose to my rear inside more to the outside of the corner, SR Down for me.


Lastly, a hit from behind to the inside of my bumper, I'm barely staying on the road and get SR Down.


Now here's how the game wants us to race, no penalties were issued, I never received SR Down, both had blue S after the race.

It starts with a ridiculous dive bomb that only works because the road is a mile wide. Ticked off that I now have to compromise my corner exit for his reckless move I figure I'll return the dive on his inside. He blocks kinda weird, thus I bump him a little then leave him exactly one car width. I'm not proud of that 'pass' at all, but I was ticked off and the game said well done, SR up.... Then he retaliates of course by bumping me once, then again bumping me wide and forcing me off. No penalties again. By this time I've had enough of the game and decided to make some penalty videos.

I guess this will be another week where I just get the daily car and play something else. The track is plenty fun to drive, but the penalty system is bringing the worst out of people. The track is so wide with even wider track limits that bump passes pretty much always succeed. And even when someone gets punted, chances are they keep a wheel or two inside track limits while spinning out. I'm afraid to brake on time as that's a sure way to get bumped from behind and receive SR Down. Yet take the corner wide and you get a diver to deliver an SR Down. Interlagos is looking more inviting atm, however I don't like GR.4 much. Perhaps I'll give it a try later in the week, yet my experience with starting in the back there has never been very good lol. There's always @Pigems lobby on Saturday!

 

[Dorofint]

[..]
I guess this will be another week where I just get the daily car and play something else. The track is plenty fun to drive, but the penalty system is bringing the worst out of people. The track is so wide with even wider track limits that bump passes pretty much always succeed. And even when someone gets punted, chances are they keep a wheel or two inside track limits while spinning out. I'm afraid to brake on time as that's a sure way to get bumped from behind and receive SR Down. Yet take the corner wide and you get a diver to deliver an SR Down. @Pigems lobby on Saturday!

You are 100% right. I fell from BS to CC last week without being aware of any guilt. This is mainly due to other drivers who perform divebombs with 2 wheels in the grass. In addition to the loss of time and position, there are very often time penalties and SR downs for me and the other victims. My problem was that it was not once but several times in a race carried out with me. If someone does this successfully, all the other drivers behind see it and then do it the same way. They have just seen how to do it successfully and without punishment.
At some point I reacted then and also left intentional the street after the divebomb. This allowed me to avoid some penalties. However, this maneuver causes further loss of time and thus sometimes a loss of further positions. Therefore, I could not avoid the descent from Dr B to C. I see with the current rules no way to defend against divebombs. No matter what you try, the divebomber has a high chance of winning and the victim always loses. I'm sorry but that's not the race I want. It's only about exploiting any weaknesses in the system. At clean fair racing at least below DR A hardly anyone seems to be more interested. Since I'm too slow for DR A or even S, getting there is rather utopian. Especially since I've just fallen from DR B to C through all the dirty maneuvers. I can improve my SR again by driving slowly behind the field. But for DR, I need results and they will not come, of course, if I'm already divebombed in T1.

 

[gtpierre]

You are 100% right. I fell from BS to CC last week without being aware of any guilt. This is mainly due to other drivers who perform divebombs with 2 wheels in the grass. In addition to the loss of time and position, there are very often time penalties and SR downs for me and the other victims. My problem was that it was not once but several times in a race carried out with me. If someone does this successfully, all the other drivers behind see it and then do it the same way. They have just seen how to do it successfully and without punishment.
At some point I reacted then and also left intentional the street after the divebomb. This allowed me to avoid some penalties. However, this maneuver causes further loss of time and thus sometimes a loss of further positions. Therefore, I could not avoid the descent from Dr B to C. I see with the current rules no way to defend against divebombs. No matter what you try, the divebomber has a high chance of winning and the victim always loses. I'm sorry but that's not the race I want. It's only about exploiting any weaknesses in the system. At clean fair racing at least below DR A hardly anyone seems to be more interested. Since I'm too slow for DR A or even S, getting there is rather utopian. Especially since I've just fallen from DR B to C through all the dirty maneuvers. I can improve my SR again by driving slowly behind the field. But for DR, I need results and they will not come, of course, if I'm already divebombed in T1.

We should probably do some private Euro, US etc GTplanet member only private lobbies where we can do the daily races without all the dirty behavior. But it such a pain to organize I guess no one does this.
After having moved from SR.S to SR.B many times I can say that there is almost no difference in actual sportsmanship between the different ranks, only the time of the day/week matters.

 

[Groundfish]

We should probably do some private Euro, US etc GTplanet member only private lobbies where we can do the daily races without all the dirty behavior. But it such a pain to organize I guess no one does this.
Afternoon having moved from SR.S to SR.B many times I can say that there is almost no difference in actual sportsmanship between the different ranks, only the time of the day/week matters.

Please, before commenting, read a page or two of the thread. You might be surprised what’s in it.
As a player whose daily experience is 99.6 percent 99sr lobbies, my opinion is that in the lower ranks, players are less skilled, and thus much more contact prone.

 

[gtpierre]

Please, before commenting, read a page or two of the thread. You might be surprised what’s in it.
As a player whose daily experience is 99.6 percent 99sr lobbies, my opinion is that in the lower ranks, players are less skilled, and thus much more contact prone.

I quoted the wrong person, but I'm not sure anyways what you are talking about ?

I meant to answer to sven, since he was mentioning lobby races, and propose an alternative to avoid the weekly complaints about the penalty system, since this thread is not going anywhere anyways.

tl;dr for the thread : penalty system is broken, you are considered the victim of a contact if you're first to leave the track in the seconds following the contact and the other guy gets randomly 2-4s penalty.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

I quoted the wrong person, but I'm not sure anyways what you are talking about ?

I meant to answer to sven, since he was mentioning lobby races, and propose an alternative to avoid the weekly complaints about the penalty system, since this thread is not going anywhere anyways.

tl;dr for the thread : penalty system is broken, you are considered the victim of a contact if you're first to leave the track in the seconds following the contact and the other guy gets randomly 2-4s penalty.

@Groundfish probably means most players aren't dirty, merely overconfident and/or reckless and the penalty system supports that style of driving. Door and bumper banging, while strictly prohibited in the etiquette videos, is supported by the penalty system as long as no one goes off. The wider the track, the looser the track limits, the more bumping is 'fine' Dives are encouraged as the person furthest from the apex usually gets the SR Down as long as you don't entirely bump them off the road.

It would be nice to know the exact rules of who gets SR Down in side contact, especially on straights. And why it's 1 sec one time and 5 sec the next time.

 

[Groundfish]

@gtpierre
Your comment was literally the main topic of discussion the last two pages regarding lobbies.
In this thread, we are looking for analysis of what happens with penalties with video examples.
We all want to improve the penalty system, but so far we have not come up with a better rule to the algorithm then what exists currently.
If you have an idea, I am sure everyone would like to hear it.
Stating that the system is broken or a piece of expletive is not what this thread is about as mentioned in the first post on page one.
We all want a better system, but we need to work together to try to figure out how it might be possible by offering suggestions or analysis.

 

[gtpierre]

@gtpierre
Your comment was literally the main topic of discussion the last two pages regarding lobbies.
In this thread, we are looking for analysis of what happens with penalties with video examples.

The problem being that PD is tweaking the penalty system depending on the races, and/or completely changing the penalty system every two weeks. It's impossible to understand what is going on. Add to this the different rules in FIA races, + the rules that change depending on the Dr or Sr level (ie ghosting)... it's an undecipherable puzzle

 

[Sven Jurgens]

The problem being that PD is tweaking the penalty system depending on the races, and/or completely changing the penalty system every two weeks. It's impossible to understand what is going on. Add to this the different rules in FIA races, + the rules that change depending on the Dr or Sr level (ie ghosting)... it's an undecipherable puzzle

I don't see any evidence that the penalty system behaves different depending on the races. Main differences are caused by the width of the track and the corresponding track limits. What does change drastically is the amount of 'SR' you can spend on contact. The general rule seems to be that the SR budget for a race is Total number of sectors (minus the last one) times 0.4. Thus ((7 x 8) -1) * 0.4 = 22 SR for this weeks daily C. Slower cars means less laps, means a lower SR budget for the race. daily A and B are much shorter thus seem a lot more strict on contact.

As for completely changing it every 2 weeks, not by a long shot. The last major overhaul was last summer, from trying to determine fault based on the contact point between cars to determining fault based on who goes off. All the other tweaks have been rather minor and gradual. Different rulings based on DR and SR haven't changed much either over time. It's not an undecipherable puzzle, but then again I have done over 7000 races with all the different versions of the penalty system from D/E to A+/S.


I did two races today before losing appetite again due to all the 'allowed' contact and bump passing. First race was pretty decent, just a couple SR Downs. I put all 3 SR Downs together. The first is simply a moment of inattention by a struggling player where I narrowly escape getting bumped into the pit entry wall. Second I could have left a bit more room on review but I'm deathly afraid of hitting the kerbs there in the 911. He could have left a bit more room as well. Third we bump doors on the straight onto the next corner. At the time it felt he was telling me to' back off' yet on review I was pretty aggressive there. Deserved I think.

I passed that poor guy about 3 or 4 times in the next race, getting bumped off by other players to be reset behind him again and again. Although all my other passes were contact free and clean I didn't want to torture him any longer lol. All the rest of the incidents are from my second race.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Split post, seems there's a 5 video limit per post

Race 2 starts with likely tunnel vision of the other car. He bumps me off, gets 1 second for preventing my overtake. Seems alright.


Next a true dirty player. No clue what's wrong with him but every time I see him on the track he bumps me off. He does get a three second penalty for it, yet that's far from enough with 4 places lost and him going out ahead. It looks very deliberate.

It works right, but the punishment is far too low.

A late block attempt knocking me off into the grass. He gets 1.0 sec yet overtake prevented again and putting me in harms way of another very annoying driver.


Dirty or just dumb and reckless.

This is where I lose faith in the game. Bump, nose stick, barge pass, go ahead the game thinks it's all fine. I even get SR Down for his nose sticking and see I narrowly avoided a time penalty had he gone 1 inch further from the line...

Lastly, same guy again with his nose sticking. Another 'successful' 'overtake' by him, no penalties issued.

Don't feel like another race. He had a blue S at the end of the race of course....

Slow in fast out is dead. Late apex is recipe for disaster. The game really needs to start looking at corner rights and explain them with splash screens before the race.

 

[sturk0167]

As a player whose daily experience is 99.6 percent 99sr lobbies, my opinion is that in the lower ranks, players are less skilled, and thus much more contact prone.

@Groundfish probably means most players aren't dirty, merely overconfident and/or reckless and the penalty system supports that style of driving.

Yup. I'd say that race collisions are more often accidental than malicious. From my experience, anyways. I haven't intentionally hit anyone in weeks, but I'll bet I average 2-3 contacts per race because my mistakes, and I have a pretty good amount of experience. Could be that my skill doesn't match my ambition.

If I know you, you've got nothing to worry about. Honestly, I'll take a lot more risks when racing against strangers.

 

[Dorofint]

Dirty or just dumb and reckless.

This is where I lose faith in the game. Bump, nose stick, barge pass, go ahead the game thinks it's all fine. I even get SR Down for his nose sticking and see I narrowly avoided a time penalty had he gone 1 inch further from the line...

Lastly, same guy again with his nose sticking. Another 'successful' 'overtake' by him, no penalties issued.

Don't feel like another race. He had a blue S at the end of the race of course....

Slow in fast out is dead. Late apex is recipe for disaster. The game really needs to start looking at corner rights and explain them with splash screens before the race.

I basically experience something like that all the time. Since such a thing is not punished more and more players make it. The win thereby positions and as icing on the cake there is also a blue S. In the current system, there is no reason to drive clean. Unless you are an idealist and want clean racing.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Nothing unusual happening this morning. Get bumped from behind SR Down, get bumped from the inside in corners SR Down. Bump from the inside in corners is fine. Race C track is so wide penalties seldom trigger, spin outs usually stay within track limits. One or two red ratings at the end, that's it. Many more deserve a red rating but the system isn't picking up on bad behavior and with 22 SR points to spend per race, 6 SR Downs is no problem.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

5 new incidents from today, mostly from one race.

First a 5 car pile up where I narrowly managed to avoid one spin out to be nailed by another. I didn't cause any of it, yet I'm the one singled out for a 5 second penalty My only contact was with the car that nailed me after getting hit by a different car.



The next race I screwed up. That turn has 2 ways to take it (or so I see people drive it) Either hug the inside and make it two corners, or turn it into one continuous corner by going a bit wide at the first apex (faster). I was sure the car behind me would take option 2, didn't know what the car in front would do. I didn't dare to brake too early so I ended up braking too late to avoid the slow approach.

I didn't get a penalty (not even SR Down) and gave him the position back as it was my fault. Somehow the car behind me got a penalty. On review I see he tapped the other car which ultimately made him spin out.

It turned out to be the worst decision to give the position back, I should have just stepped on it and apologized after.
He was all over the road so had 0.5 sec to serve. I pass him, he crashes into me. No penalty while I spun off the road.


He goes wide and loses control again. I take the corner normally (should I not try to overtake when a car goes wide?) and he seems to try to block after realizing his mistake (full steer lock to the right) I end up in the grass, he gets 4.0 sec. Why is it 4 seconds?


Last one, seems retaliation for getting a penalty. But perhaps he lost control since his left front tire was all gone. He was never going to make that corner and on the radar it does look suspiciously like he drifted into me on purpose. Why only 1 sec here?


Lesson learned, don't give positions back to people you don't know.

 

[Pigems]

We should probably do some private Euro, US etc GTplanet member only private lobbies where we can do the daily races without all the dirty behavior. But it such a pain to organize I guess no one does this.
After having moved from SR.S to SR.B many times I can say that there is almost no difference in actual sportsmanship between the different ranks, only the time of the day/week matters.

I actually run a lobby Saturday nights at 9pm EST where we do two runs of each of that weeks Daily Race combos, you’re more than welcome to join us man. Here is a link to the thread, I hope you can join on this week.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/weekly-runs-of-the-daily-races.386718/

This is @Sven Jurgens replay, but this is one of our Saturday races, they’ve been very clean and fun so far.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

There might have been some subtle changes to the bump from behind SR Down.

I got 2 SR Downs for bumping an early braker (or rather 'brake checks', corners that don't require any brakes) while I did not receive any SR Downs from botched draft pass attempts by cars behind me. No clue if the burden now has fully shifted to the car behind but I'll keep an eye on it.

Penalties seem to be working fine, get bumped off road, other car gets penalty. Cleaning up the track limits on Sarthe has done wonders already!

Nope it's still the same. I just got draft bumped twice on the straight, SR Down for me. I draft bumped him back on the next straight, no SR Down. Perhaps it has only changed near corners. -2 SR for a race with 2 draft bumps. The car I bumped back once ended on neutral (without any more contact or mistakes) It could also have been DR difference of course, very mixed fields atm. This time it was another B/S driver, equal footing.

 

[Pigems]

Here one for ya’s. Why do I get 5s for giving him a boost of speed , yet he only gets 1s for running me into a wall and killing my exit? His hit did more damage in theory.

 

[Cerebral303]

I got 10s for bumping along the dirt between the esses and tertre rouge, didn't even tap the wall. Might have saved it, was doing daily mileage just after midnight. I haven't seen a 10s penalty in the game for months!

 

[zzz_pt]

Here one for ya’s. Why do I get 5s for giving him a boost of speed , yet he only gets 1s for running me into a wall and killing my exit? His hit did more damage in theory.

The game interprets the tarmac where you pushed him to be off track. Of you do the same as his on your own you'll get a penalty.

So the game interpreted that as you pushing someone off track. Even if he didn't lose any time.

 

[ASH32]

Enjoy these and try to make sense of them if you dare.



First off I get a 3 second penalty for the guy spinning off after very minor contact with me and much greater contact with the car in front, even though the contact didn't actually cause it. Then before I can even serve the penalty I'm hit up the arse and the culprit goes unpunished.



Then later in the same race I'm hit from behind into another car and I am hit with a 5 second penalty.



Oh and here's how the ghosted cars ended up in the way. Not sure what was going on but there was no penalty for it.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

@ASH32 I'm sticking with race B

I've been punted off as well without the culprit getting a penalty, something seems broken or more broken. The second one, you had contact with that car before getting punted into him, the game still sees you as responsible for first contact. Same as the first video. But it has become more inconsistent lately.