The Sound Update Thread (The Return)

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Speedster911
Game companies should not be held liable for users keeping their volume at unbearable levels. And sounds can be really loud, detail-rich and sport high dynamic range such as FM5's car audio - that doesn't mean I need to keep the volume level really high to enjoy what it has to offer.
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Not at all. I was merely pointing out that a lot of the "wow" factor of real life race cars is the sheer volume that they operate at. Hence the example of V12 F1 cars, which are simply incredible and audible from kilometers away. That level of noise isn't practical for an entertainment unit. There's a difference between having accurate sounds at a lower volume, and reproducing exactly the sounds that one might hear at a race track, volume and all.
 
Some of it is definitely volume, but a part of that is the way that loud sounds bounce off objects, multiple times, and are still loud enough to be properly heard from where they were reflected from and / or refracted around. This sense of envelopment from sound bounced all around you is possible in current games and is massively underrated in terms of its immersive power.

See binaural / ambisonic recordings - e.g. this, which is giving me flashbacks to my synthesising efforts a few years ago! This stuff is getting some serious attention now that interactive VR visuals are practical, and despite initial skepticism that accurate simulations of sound fields actually make any difference in that application.

As regards the volume issue itself, a bit of psychoacoustic knowhow, some dynamic range compression and half-decent hardware should be all you need. Throw in a tactile transducer with its own dedicated channel and you get closer still. All that's really left is the pain, i.e. the volume knob.


Regarding the accuracy of GT's sounds, there are still missing sources.

I disagree about the Subaru sound, it is mostly exhaust coloured for better representation on the interior. The exhaust is clearly fundamentally the lumpy boxer sound we all expect, the intakes of these modern engines have a dull two-cylinder drone (example), which is obvious from looking at the manifolds. Missing the intake sound means the exhaust has to be modified to give the same impression.

Also missing in the interior is the way the engine's vibration causes the whole car to vibrate and, coupled with the sound of (the shape and materials of) the space within the cabin, "richen" the sound, especially since the sound comes from all around you. Boxers are not buzzy like inline fours and impart a subtle roughness this way (due to odd-firing cylinders being in two planes, and offset), despite claims of absolute smoothness.

The Renault RS-01 is clearly crying out for intake sound, and again the V6 lumpiness (that firing order...) is not heard in the chassis and bodywork.

I'm not sure if I like the crackles yet, although I recognise they really do richen the soundscape, they do not seem to fit with the rest of the (WIP) aesthetic at this point. At least at the moment it seems as though there's a few different sets of crackle sounds so that not all cars sound the same. I hope they're using AES for it, but the whip-cracks would suggest not.
 
Griffith500
Some of it is definitely volume, but a part of that is the way that loud sounds bounce off objects, multiple times, and are still loud enough to be properly heard from where they were reflected from and / or refracted around. This sense of envelopment from sound bounced all around you is possible in current games and is massively underrated in terms of its immersive power.

See binaural / ambisonic recordings - e.g. this, which is giving me flashbacks to my synthesising efforts a few years ago! This stuff is getting some serious attention now that interactive VR visuals are practical, and despite initial skepticism that accurate simulations of sound fields actually make any difference in that application.

As regards the volume issue itself, a bit of psychoacoustic knowhow, some dynamic range compression and half-decent hardware should be all you need. Throw in a tactile transducer with its own dedicated channel and you get closer still. All that's really left is the pain, i.e. the volume knob.


Regarding the accuracy of GT's sounds, there are still missing sources.

I disagree about the Subaru sound, it is mostly exhaust coloured for better representation on the interior. The exhaust is clearly fundamentally the lumpy boxer sound we all expect, the intakes of these modern engines have a dull two-cylinder drone (example), which is obvious from looking at the manifolds. Missing the intake sound means the exhaust has to be modified to give the same impression.

Also missing in the interior is the way the engine's vibration causes the whole car to vibrate and, coupled with the sound of (the shape and materials of) the space within the cabin, "richen" the sound, especially since the sound comes from all around you. Boxers are not buzzy like inline fours and impart a subtle roughness this way (due to odd-firing cylinders being in two planes, and offset), despite claims of absolute smoothness.

The Renault RS-01 is clearly crying out for intake sound, and again the V6 lumpiness (that firing order...) is not heard in the chassis and bodywork.

I'm not sure if I like the crackles yet, although I recognise they really do richen the soundscape, they do not seem to fit with the rest of the (WIP) aesthetic at this point. At least at the moment it seems as though there's a few different sets of crackle sounds so that not all cars sound the same. I hope they're using AES for it, but the whip-cracks would suggest not.
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Man, I admire how you get into the detail and nuance of it all. Games have definitely reached a point where they can make the car audio so much more immersive but they just don't invest as must sweat and back-breaking work into it as graphics. Talking consoles only.

This is a bit off-topic for sure, but do you feel FM5 can be used as a benchmark for other racing games? On a console at least, I feel it is the closest any developer has ever got to capturing the very soul and character of a car's audio, both while driving and trackside sounds.

More off-topic: does one really need a digital surround system to enjoy the audio exploits racing games have to offer? I don't care much for directional audio as I currently game on an 8-speaker 2.1 digital stereo setup (in a surround environment) that more than meets the requirement.

Loved how informative and interesting to read your post was. 👍
 
Speedster911
Man, I admire how you get into the detail and nuance of it all. Games have definitely reached a point where they can make the car audio so much more immersive but they just don't invest as must sweat and back-breaking work into it as graphics. Talking consoles only.

This is a bit off-topic for sure, but do you feel FM5 can be used as a benchmark for other racing games? On a console at least, I feel it is the closest any developer has ever got to capturing the very soul and character of a car's audio, both while driving and trackside sounds.

More off-topic: does one really need a digital surround system to enjoy the audio exploits racing games have to offer? I don't care much for directional audio as I currently game on an 8-speaker 2.1 digital stereo setup (in a surround environment) that more than meets the requirement.

Loved how informative and interesting to read your post was. 👍
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Thanks for the compliments!

I agree that sound has often seemed to play second fiddle to graphics, at best, but at least there is the steady drip down of tech and the ever-increasing computational power - both meaning that some progress is possible!

I've never played FM5, but the likely answer is that no one game does it all. Some capture the aesthetic, some deliver immersively detailed physical interactions, some sound just like some recordings some of the time, others are completely stylised and still useful in their own way. There are different advantages to different approaches, and these should each be allowed to find full maturity independently, in my opinion.

Speaking generally, you don't need lots of speakers; e.g. headphones will do the job. Even a well set-up stereo system can give a good sense of envelopment; it's not so much the directional fidelity as it is the sense of space (and hence place) that matters most of the time.
However, the use of audio in a gameplay feedback sense (in all kinds of games) should not be overlooked, and is often taken for granted when it is done very well. This obviously poses a problem when sound cannot be relied upon, e.g. if players can't have it loud enough to discern the details or if they just drown it out with their own music anyway.
 
Griffith500
Thanks for the compliments!

I agree that sound has often seemed to play second fiddle to graphics, at best, but at least there is the steady drip down of tech and the ever-increasing computational power - both meaning that some progress is possible!

I've never played FM5, but the likely answer is that no one game does it all. Some capture the aesthetic, some deliver immersively detailed physical interactions, some sound just like some recordings some of the time, others are completely stylised and still useful in their own way. There are different advantages to different approaches, and these should each be allowed to find full maturity independently, in my opinion.

Speaking generally, you don't need lots of speakers; e.g. headphones will do the job. Even a well set-up stereo system can give a good sense of envelopment; it's not so much the directional fidelity as it is the sense of space (and hence place) that matters most of the time.
However, the use of audio in a gameplay feedback sense (in all kinds of games) should not be overlooked, and is often taken for granted when it is done very well. This obviously poses a problem when sound cannot be relied upon, e.g. if players can't have it loud enough to discern the details or if they just drown it out with their own music anyway.
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It's the same with movies. The first time I used my Home Theater, after months of preparations and all, it was like the cinema, or even better in some cases...
The moment when you realize that sound is as important as video, you tend to see everything more carefully.
That being said, the 5.1 at least so far in GT has been amazing. BUT, the samples, the recordings, whatever they're using, it's not quite there. In the beta is really good so far, considering what we had, but I've found myself turning up the volume considerably just to have that inmersion that is a must in racing games. Don't really know if that's a good or a bad thing, but other games have managed to get "better" results at lower volume. Is something to consider, at least in my case.
 
Griffith500
Thanks for the compliments!

I agree that sound has often seemed to play second fiddle to graphics, at best, but at least there is the steady drip down of tech and the ever-increasing computational power - both meaning that some progress is possible!

I've never played FM5, but the likely answer is that no one game does it all. Some capture the aesthetic, some deliver immersively detailed physical interactions, some sound just like some recordings some of the time, others are completely stylised and still useful in their own way. There are different advantages to different approaches, and these should each be allowed to find full maturity independently, in my opinion.

Speaking generally, you don't need lots of speakers; e.g. headphones will do the job. Even a well set-up stereo system can give a good sense of envelopment; it's not so much the directional fidelity as it is the sense of space (and hence place) that matters most of the time.
However, the use of audio in a gameplay feedback sense (in all kinds of games) should not be overlooked, and is often taken for granted when it is done very well. This obviously poses a problem when sound cannot be relied upon, e.g. if players can't have it loud enough to discern the details or if they just drown it out with their own music anyway.
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Oh somebody like you who has such a keen ear for detail should absolutely try out FM5. It's really cheap and you might even like a few aspects of the game better than FM6. ;);)
 
GT sounds are definitely improved (though they worsened with 1.06 update comparing to 1.05), but they are far, far behind competitors, and for competitors i mean iRacing, Raceroom Racing Experience (the best and most customisable) and Assetto Corsa. And that's not a matter of taste but a fact. GT sounds are still too weak and digitally fake, but surely improved from GT6.
 
fet_thunderdome
GT sounds are definitely improved (though they worsened with 1.06 update comparing to 1.05), but they are far, far behind competitors, and for competitors i mean iRacing, Raceroom Racing Experience (the best and most customisable) and Assetto Corsa. And that's not a matter of taste but a fact. GT sounds are still too weak and digitally fake, but surely improved from GT6.
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Friend, they are still far behind the likes of Forza and don't even get me started on comparison with DR! Unfortunately, the thing is, PD probably sets itself apart as having no competitor at all. It's most likely that mindset that has held them back from truly innovating in car sounds, which they haven't with GTS. I think that's what their general aim is - a great car collecting and driving game with just above average sounds to give fans their much needed fix. It worked on me too for a while, but then Forza for example, did several things so much better, especially sound, and I was quick to jump ship.
 
Speedster911
Friend, they are still far behind the likes of Forza and don't even get me started on comparison with DR! Unfortunately, the thing is, PD probably sets itself apart as having no competitor at all. It's most likely that mindset that has held them back from truly innovating in car sounds, which they haven't with GTS. I think that's what their general aim is - a great car collecting and driving game with just above average sounds to give fans their much needed fix. It worked on me too for a while, but then Forza for example, did several things so much better, especially sound, and I was quick to jump ship.
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I disagree.
 
sems4arsenal
I disagree.
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And you are entitled to that of course.

I'm a sucker for cars and motorsport IRL; the cars simply do not sound convincing in GTS, either from the gameplay POV or replays. There are a few good samples here and there, but not quite enough to make one gasp with delight and amazement. If you truly enjoy accurate car sounds then you ought to give FM5 and 6 a try. Horizon 1 and 2 ain't bad either, and some of the PC sims out there like iRacing and RRE truly shine.
 
Speedster911
And you are entitled to that of course.

I'm a sucker for cars and motorsport IRL; the cars simply do not sound convincing in GTS, either from the gameplay POV or replays. There are a few good samples here and there, but not quite enough to make one gasp with delight and amazement. If you truly enjoy accurate car sounds then you ought to give FM5 and 6 a try. Horizon 1 and 2 ain't bad either, and some of the PC sims out there like iRacing and RRE truly shine.
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Have you played the beta? I'll give you games like Raceroom and DiRT Rally -- these are still way ahead. But I don't think GTSport is "far" behind Forza and/or PCARS 2 at all.
 
sems4arsenal
Have you played the beta? I'll give you games like Raceroom and DiRT Rally -- these are still way ahead. But I don't think GTSport is "far" behind Forza and/or PCARS 2 at all.
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I haven't heard a single car in GT that creates any sort of emotional response like cars can and do in Forza and PCars1 or 2. They are improved from prior versions of the game no doubt but I don't get any visceral reaction at all from any video I've watched of GTSport. Maybe it's much better playing the game vs. videos but the sort of droning, synthetic character of the sound won't change I suspect and that is the main issue for me.
 
Johnnypenso
I haven't heard a single car in GT that creates any sort of emotional response like cars can and do in Forza and PCars1 or 2. They are improved from prior versions of the game no doubt but I don't get any visceral reaction at all from any video I've watched of GTSport. Maybe it's much better playing the game vs. videos but the sort of droning, synthetic character of the sound won't change I suspect and that is the main issue for me.
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The GT3 cars in the game are very very good in my opinion. Not perfect (not yet anyway), but with mild sound mixing -- they'll be damn good. They have a strong enough foundation in my opinion that by the final build, they should be ok.
 
There's a problem with transmission sound and that's not the volume, in fact it is quite loud in reality, but the pitch and kind of the sound, which is not that. In GTS it seems like a high-pitched electronic hum, more than gear sound. In reality it sounds more like the sound your car make in reverse gear. And another big problem is the tire squeal. Too present (tires don't squeal so frequently, expecially in race cars) and too high.
 
I can't honestly believe that people is praising Forza's sounds. Obviously, if you compare them with GT6, any of the sounds from any Forza game, well yeah, Forza wins without effort. But to me, saying that the Beta sounds bad is just repetition of the old saying that GT is always going to suck at sound.
There are tons of comparison videos that prove that. There are problems, as with any other game, but sounds are really good now.
The shifting in road cars is still bad though, but the only game that sounds convincing to me and still have a lot of issues is RaceRoom.
Then Driveclub... but Project Cars? I don't know, it's all subjective but to me, nope....
 
Eager Snake
I can't honestly believe that people is praising Forza's sounds. Obviously, if you compare them with GT6, any of the sounds from any Forza game, well yeah, Forza wins without effort. But to me, saying that the Beta sounds bad is just repetition of the old saying that GT is always going to suck at sound.
There are tons of comparison videos that prove that. There are problems, as with any other game, but sounds are really good now.
The shifting in road cars is still bad though, but the only game that sounds convincing to me and still have a lot of issues is RaceRoom.
Then Driveclub... but Project Cars? I don't know, it's all subjective but to me, nope....
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Assetto Corsa has among the best samples out there and iRacing really shines.
 
fet_thunderdome
There's a problem with transmission sound and that's not the volume, in fact it is quite loud in reality, but the pitch and kind of the sound, which is not that. In GTS it seems like a high-pitched electronic hum, more than gear sound. In reality it sounds more like the sound your car make in reverse gear. And another big problem is the tire squeal. Too present (tires don't squeal so frequently, expecially in race cars) and too high.
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Exactly right. It sounds like they sampled a tea kettle and then used the software to increase the pitch up and down. It doesn't sound like a real transmission and doesn't react to the physics engine like a real transmission.
 
danh25

How does GT-R play in this video build E3, compared to beta?
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sems4arsenal
The GT3 cars on the oval sound a bit different so can't make a proper comparison. However, that off-throttle turbo flutter sound isn't in the beta.
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It sounds pretty close to the real life GT3 but still misses some aspects and that transmission whine seriously needs a change in how it sounds IMO.
 
Johnnypenso
Exactly right. It sounds like they sampled a tea kettle and then used the software to increase the pitch up and down. It doesn't sound like a real transmission and doesn't react to the physics engine like a real transmission.
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Not to mention that the driveshaft movement isn't mixed in with the gearbox whine. In fact, it's not present at all. In Project Cars it is.
 
CLowndes888
Not to mention that the driveshaft movement isn't mixed in with the gearbox whine. In fact, it's not present at all. In Project Cars it is.
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As ever, this is a physics issue first. I don't mind the gear whine, but I would always choose to avoid hearing it in any game. I would prefer it would be fixed by an enrichment of the physical simulation, rather than pasting over it with canned reactions that only distance the player from the systems they are supposed to be controlling with the aid of that feedback.

On that basis, what I don't like in that clip are those clunks, like a metal hatch slamming on the other side of an empty room, every time a gear is changed. That would get very tiresome, very quickly.
 
Griffith500
As ever, this is a physics issue first. I don't mind the gear whine, but I would always choose to avoid hearing it in any game. I would prefer it would be fixed by an enrichment of the physical simulation, rather than pasting over it with canned reactions that only distance the player from the systems they are supposed to be controlling with the aid of that feedback.

On that basis, what I don't like in that clip are those clunks, like a metal hatch slamming on the other side of an empty room, every time a gear is changed. That would get very tiresome, very quickly.
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+1

Well put. However, knowing PD, if it's good enough for them, it will have to be good enough for consumers.
 

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