ToCA9 - Final Standings And A Final Thank You.

[V8-Johnboy]

Plenty of differing opinions hells teeth it cant be easy for Furi he must have some pretty broad shoulders i'd have probably told everyone to shove it by now to be quite frank. From what I read the lads had a pretty crap 48 hrs so do the guy a favour and move on I bet he dreads looking in on this thread right now. How about instead a little more support from some of you lot right now.💡

*Old Bloke Gets Coat.*

 

[Spurgy 777]

I have to disagree. Show me one driver that would have backed off in that situation mid-corner seeing that Dax had made a mistake, especially when Yeratel is actually giving him enough room. Dax is almost off-track and still with no overlap (meaning that Yeratel would not lift - why should he? He has to assume Dax will stay on the throttle...), Yeratel is even going to the left as much as possible to give him some room, when suddenly Dax's back-end slides out from under him, and Dax rapidly loses speed trying to catch his rear, causing the overlap and slamming into Yeratel pushing him out on the grass. By that point, there was no way Yeratel could have avoided that. The point is that Dax was NOT on his usual line (he slid about a car width to the left), and even though he was still ahead, his car was the one making the swerve towards Yeratel, not the other way round. The second contact was basically just Yeratel coming back to track, a sort of pendulum effect caused by the first contact.

In my opinion, there is nobody at fault here, because Dax was just trying to catch his car, and Yeratel was giving him enough room, if Dax hadn't had that problem coming out of the grass. If that hadn't been on the last lap and for the lead, we would definitely not be talking about it. Racing incident, and a minor one at that.

I would have backed off, I think it was fairly obvious where Dax's car was going to end up and what was going to happen and Yera is lucky he didn't just get smashed into the wall. But that sort of is missing the point, this incident was by no means something to rage quit about. Yes it's annoying to lose the lead by someone else being a bit reckless, but far worse things have happened in TOCA that didn't get penalised, done by Dax himself on some occasions, so I see no reason why this should be an exception.

 

[DaxCobra]

I would have backed off, I think it was fairly obvious where Dax's car was going to end up and what was going to happen and Yera is lucky he didn't just get smashed into the wall. But that sort of is missing the point, this incident was by no means something to rage quit about. Yes it's annoying to lose the lead by someone else being a bit reckless, but far worse things have happened in TOCA that didn't get penalised, done by Dax himself on some occasions, so I see no reason why this should be an exception.

I didn't rage quit at that, I stayed for race two, got smacked off in the third corner, then I turned the PS3 off to avoid further conflict.

But it was brought up anyway.

At the end of the day, I had track position and I am entitled to whatever line I damn well please. The fact that I wasn't on my USUAL line doesn't matter. I still had track position and rights to the next corner.

I was very angry at that event, I PM'd Furi about the incident, like anyone else would.

Then next race I was smacked off again, so I thought instead of flaming about it I would just quit, thinking it would be the mature thing to do.

But no, Furi had to bring it up again, making it personal, calling me silly, stupid, immature, any anything else he can etc... So yeah, don't expect me to be happy with that.

Besides, looks like Joe, Marunda and Paulmac agree with me, and to be honest I rate their judgement of racecraft FAR more than anyone else in TOCA.


Tempers were running high, and I didn't really want to exit TOCA like this. Especially after the great fun I've had with Furi and most of the regulars.

 

[snowgt]

I don't expect him to lift upon seeing Dax's mistake, I expect him to lift when he sees that there's no way he's going to make that move, i.e. once Dax has corrected and is taking the line for the next corner.

You're saying "once that Dax has corrected". I'm saying his correction was slamming into Yeratel. That means that at the moment you say Yeratel should have lifted, the contact had already been made.

But I also think that in such situations, it's a tough call.

 

[DaxCobra]

You're saying "once that Dax has corrected". I'm saying his correction was slamming into Yeratel. That means that at the moment you say Yeratel should have lifted, the contact had already been made.

But I also think that in such situations, it's a tough call.

The car was never out of control. I went wide, and adjusted my line to suit...

I was understeering if anything...

 

[Pluxtheduck]

Mate you went off of the track, the car was not in full control - the back end came out massively... You should have had straight lined the corner...

 

[V8-Johnboy]

Well Furi I tried Off to play with the grown ups I hope nothing really important happens to any of us today.

 

[P1K3Y_M1k3Y]

Are we still on the subject?

No wonder I haven't seen a post from Furi for a while, he must be getting fed up with it all!

We have all put our opinion forward even though we shouldn't really and at the end of the day the 'stewards decision' should be final!

Both drivers should have put their opinion forward to the stewards and let them look at the replay and come to their decision.

It is a tough one to call and as I have stated in that situation I would not have done anything different from either prospective.

And to add I don't see any evidence of any penalty being applied to either driver so the whole argument is pointless and should be forgotten about and we should all move on to the next race where I hope to get through the heat race so that I can get properly involved in next weeks arguments

 

[DaxCobra]

Mate you went off of the track, the car was not in full control - the back end came out massively... You should have had straight lined the corner...

I should have straight lined the corner...

Show me the rule where it says I should do that?

Don't really care anymore. Like I said, Joe, Marunda, Paulmac and even Spurgy agrees with me.

So, two very clean drivers who have earned a lot of respect around here, a PURE steward, and another clean driver who is basically hailed as an alien in TOCA agree. That's enough for me.

 

[Pluxtheduck]

Taken from the OLR

"...or partially lose control of your car, but can prevent an accident by steering into the dirt, grass or a wall, you are expected to do so."

 

[DaxCobra]

Taken from the OLR

"...or partially lose control of your car, but can prevent an accident by steering into the dirt, grass or a wall, you are expected to do so."

But there was no accident to prevent. I had half of the car off of the track, still had two tyres on the curb, and the car was back in my control and I was heading for the next apex. I was still ahead and had the rights to the next corner, you guys seem to be missing that point. Yera then steams up my inside and makes contact in a gap that was always going to close.

Read my above comment. I am done.

 

[Pluxtheduck]

There was an accident... you had lost the car and therefore speed - Yera was closing and by coming back onto the track you were going to cause an accident... Yes, Yera should have backed off but you have gone across the grass...

 

[P1K3Y_M1k3Y]

I'm trying as an 'outsider' to stop the pointless bickering here but with almost every post I see a flaw that I disagree with in some way.

If you go off track (curb IS NOT TRACK, the white line dictates the track) and sorry dax but you were clearly past the white line with all 4 wheels. Dax's uploaded replay will clearly show this from the follow cam of Yeratel at 0:15 and again at 0:47 from Dax's follow cam.

Anyone who watches F1 will have seen Romain Grosgean get a penalty for passing filepe Massa and taking all 4 wheels past that line but staying on the curb (I am aware that this is slightly different circumstances as no pass was attempted off the track but just to help make my point of track limits and anyone who hasn't seen it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmZ9oKXXHHQ @0:06).

Dax's rules broken:

B:
In case you brake too late for a corner or partially lose control of your car, but can prevent an accident by steering into the dirt, grass or a wall, you are expected to do so.
(there must have been an accident to avoid or we wouldn't be having this discussion)
A:
When approaching the turn/apex of turn, the car which "holds" the inner side of turn has entrance-advantage and other driver(s) must refrain from endangering him by his actions.

Yeratel's rules broken:
A:
The behind driver must take all necessary care and responsibility not to run into an ahead driver.
D:
If an ahead driver has clearly made an error to warrant a passing move, a behind driver may attack their position, with due caution and care, regardless of whether there was any pre-existing overlap. However, the overtaking driver must still avoid contact. Small errors by the ahead driver may not justify a passing move. The ahead driver getting a bit out of shape at times doesn’t give you an automatic right to pass. You still have to judge if their error allows for a safe pass to take place. (I beleive in this instance it would have been safe if Dax didn't come all the way back to the racing line and allowed space)

And to finish I would like to draw all your attention to this rule from the OLR making both drivers guilty:
A:
If you make a significant driving error and another driver or drivers attempts to capitalize on it, they have the right to do so. Do not try to collide or retaliate because of your error.

For Example: If you go wide at a corner and a close behind car tries to take advantage of this by moving up the inside, you should leave room for them, whether or not they had overlap going into the corner. They must also leave you room. This rule doesn't apply to small errors that don't affect the speed, direction and outcome. This is a bit of a grey area and requires good judgment on both parts.

Neither driver gave space for the other at the point of contact!

Like I said both drivers were at fault in ways and most drivers would have been so was a racing incident so please move on

And I hope this helps stop the bickering!

 

[Furinkazen]

Bottom line. Whilst perhaps both could have done there part to prevent it, I still think Dax could have left more room coming on. Surely if I went off the road, that wouldn't give me automatic rights to the track, my number one responsibility would be to first ensure I rejoin safely so I can take the racing line?

Last thing, neither Dax or Yera have or will be penalised. But I still disagree with Dax saying he got taken out on purpose.

And JB, I was asleep

 

[DaxCobra]

Lol but I barely left the track. I certainly gained no time from it.

Yera, however, left the track to pass me.

So, just like Grosjean, he should be awarded a drive through penalty.

Where was his drive through?

 

[Furinkazen]

Dax you made your point. Now you are milking it.

 

[Carbonox]

Lol but I barely left the track. I certainly gained no time from it.

Yera, however, left the track to pass me.

So, just like Grosjean, he should be awarded a drive through penalty.

Where was his drive through?

This ain't F1.

 

[DaxCobra]

Dax you made your point. Now you are milling

Actually, I am lathe-ing. (Geddit?)

I make a point, left it, people continue to counter my point.

Thus, I feel like I should continue to counter their point with my point.

To be fair, it's not really a flame war, more of a discussion at the moment.

I feel it's quite nice.

This ain't F1.

Clearly.

 

[snowgt]

[...]
A:
If you make a significant driving error and another driver or drivers attempts to capitalize on it, they have the right to do so. Do not try to collide or retaliate because of your error.

For Example: If you go wide at a corner and a close behind car tries to take advantage of this by moving up the inside, you should leave room for them, whether or not they had overlap going into the corner. They must also leave you room. This rule doesn't apply to small errors that don't affect the speed, direction and outcome. This is a bit of a grey area and requires good judgment on both parts.

[...]

While I do not agree with some of the things you said before, I think this quote applies best to the situation. 👍



ps: There is no general rule in real life or in game, as to what still constitutes track and what doesn't. It is down to the organizers of the event to define it (e.g. FIA says white line in the F1 sporting regulations). However, most series here on GTP use "curbs are track", so Dax would have been still on track. But that wouldn't matter with the paragraph quoted above.

 

[P1K3Y_M1k3Y]

Actually, I am lathe-ing. (Geddit?)

I make a point, left it, people continue to counter my point.

Thus, I feel like I should continue to counter their point with my point.

To be fair, it's not really a flame war, more of a discussion at the moment.

I feel it's quite nice.





Clearly.

on that note then I have one more for you

Lol but I barely left the track. I certainly gained no time from it.

Yera, however, left the track to pass me.

So, just like Grosjean, he should be awarded a drive through penalty.

Where was his drive through?

I agree you didn't go off by much but with my F1 point 'off is off' inch or a meter no difference

And to point out that Yera didn't go off track to try to pass you if you watch your replay again from your follow cam at 0:48 you will see that there was contact from you coming back to the racing line that resulted in him going off the track.

 

[Furinkazen]

I have said my piece, back to sleep and testing some cars later, want to check Nissan and Infiniti.

 

[Pluxtheduck]

Dax you went off the track and then forced him off by returning to the racing line, in an unsafe manner... He had to run off the track at that point

 

[LancerEvo7]

They both could've backed off, but they would've all but given up the win in doing so. Can't say it's either one's fault.

 

[DaxCobra]

on that note then I have one more for you



I agree you didn't go off by much but with my F1 point 'off is off' inch or a meter no difference

And to point out that Yera didn't go off track to try to pass you if you watch your replay again from your follow cam at 0:48 you will see that there was contact from you coming back to the racing line that resulted in him going off the track.

But to be fair I had the line into the next corner.

I think the whole 'capitalising on others mistakes' is fair enough if you go off track, slow down completely and then defend hard into the next corner at 10 MPH, yeah fair enough that is a bit silly.

But, the car was recovered, I was back on the racing line and I had the right into the next corner. Yera was always going into a gap that was going to close, at the end of the day. His car was not ahead of mine, I had the rights to the next corner and he should have backed out of it.

 

[Pluxtheduck]

But you didn't leave any room, he was coming up fast. You didn't take action to avoid the accident...

 

[V8-Johnboy]

OMG!

 

[Furinkazen]

^Johnboy has left it appears in all this. Cheers guys...

 

[DaxCobra]

But you didn't leave any room, he was coming up fast. You didn't take action to avoid the accident...

I shouldn't have to leave room.

Funnily enough, after just having a bit of a moment, I was not really looking behind, I was just taking my line as I am entitled to do.

He should recognise that I am going a bit slower, and go the long way around or wait for the next corner to attack.

 

[Carbonox]

Dax, I don't understand you. You are allowed to cut a chicane to gain a position (FIA GT1), you are allowed to shove and lean on people when they're trying to pass you on the outside (FIA GT1 again), you are allowed to rejoin into traffic after an error, but as soon as someone else steps just a little bit out of line, you go on a moaning spree which continues for the next 5 pages. At least you're making it obvious that Hamilton is your role model for online racing...

I do enjoy the 106th episode of "Entitled Dax" a lot though, thank you very much. *chews on popcorn*

 

[Furinkazen]

This whole discussion boils down to two different interpretations of what can be done, I would have done what Yera had done in my book, as I would have expected the off course driver to try look before he re joins, equally I would try to ensure I avoid the driver in front without minimising any speed loss on my end.

It's simple as that. Let us ALL leave it at that.