Touring Car discussion - WTCC, BTCC etcTouring Cars 

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prisonermonkeys
The Bathurst layout hasn't been changed since the Chase was added.
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I was mainly talking about the road add-on done in 2014 made to increase speed more than actual safety.

If you want to go further back and say that the track was designed for safety :lol:, the chicane might be but this is the same configuration that killed Mark Porter, threw out Chaz Mostert chances of winning the Championship and defending his title after a severe injury and is one of the few locations that has to stop the race just because Kangaroos make the track turn into a Mario Kart track due to the constant run overs in 2004. Also had one of the worst wet races in awhile back in 2001.

Safety I don't think was Bathursts main priority, if it was, it look a lot more different and several famous corners wouldn't even be there.
 
RESHIRAM5
this is the same configuration that killed Mark Porter, threw out Chaz Mostert chances of winning the Championship and defending his title after a severe injury
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But those accidents happened at different points around the circuit, unlike the accidents at Thruxton.

How about you read the discussion before you come charging in?
 
RESHIRAM5
Safety I don't think was Bathursts main priority, if it was, it look a lot more different and several famous corners wouldn't even be there.
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Safety wasn't anyone's priority when these circuits were made.

Thruxton circuit have made changes to the runoff at Church, with more still planned.

Further planning permission is being sought to extend the run-off by 20 metres, with this work scheduled to take place in the 2017/18 offseason.
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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/127658

Changing Church would be like changing Eau Rouge. We can't let it happen.
 
prisonermonkeys
But those accidents happened at different points around the circuit, unlike the accidents at Thruxton.

How about you read the discussion before you come charging in?
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I was mainly going on your remark of Bathurst being designed with safety in mind. Now I do think Thruxton is a dangerous circuit myself and I actually agree some remodeling should be done but your pointers felt a little contradictory as @Furinkazen and I have pointed out.

daan
Safety wasn't anyone's priority when these circuits were made.
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Sorry worded it incorrectly, I meant when it got reconfigured not made.
 
prisonermonkeys
But it's not as simple as building a new run-off area because there is no space. The only way to make the circuit safer is to slow the cars down. The only way to do that is to reconfigure the layout. I'm a little disturbed that some people are so aghast at the thought about making changes in the name of safety because it might ruin the character of the circuit.
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If drivers find Thruxton too dangerous, then they don't have to race there. Outside of the BTCC (and the British Superbikes), i don't think there are any other professional-level race series that run at Thruxton. No one is being forced to race there if they don't want to.

Thruxton holds about 8 race meetings a year. I can't see how the changes needed would be financially viable. It's not really the run-off available that's the issue, it's more the fact that the whole Noble to Church section undulates substantially, which when combined with the fact that the cars are constantly turning unbalances them and throws them off line, and like most UK WWII airfield-based circuits, they can be incredibly wind-swept at times which can also factor into it. Aside from digging that section all up, flattening it and resurfacing it, you are always going to have cars and bikes going off there at high speeds no matter what does or doesn't lie beyond to stop them.
 
If they can afford it I think Tec-Pro and SAFER barriers would work really well.
 
Like i said, no one's forced to race there. The tickets clearly state 'Motorsport is dangerous'.

I'm all for pushing the barriers back as far as they physically can (which they are, as daan has already pointed out) and improving the barrier protection, but ripping the circuit up and fundamentally altering it under great expense, just isn't going to happen. Not for a circuit the holds only two national-level professional and six amateur level meetings a year.
 
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I'm more concerned that there wasn't an immediate red flag at the wet Croft qualifying after the first incident than a hypothetical accident at Thruxton.

Those conditions were atrocious and several cars continued through at a reasonably quick speed despite local yellow flags. Was it an oil spill on the wet track that started it all?
 
Liquid
Those conditions were atrocious and several cars continued through at a reasonably quick speed despite local yellow flags. Was it an oil spill on the wet track that started it all?
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One of the Focus's went wide at the first part of the Jim Clark Esses and cut across the grass back onto the circuit, but took out his oil cooler in the process, which i think then laid a long line of oil across the track before expiring on the wide run-off area before Barcroft.

I think the only marshals post in that area is at the scene of the accident, any waved flags there are going to be approached at speed. There's a copse of trees on the left before the approach to the Esses which would obscure any view of the track before the drivers are already committed to the Esses which are taken almost flat out. Maybe they need another marshals post at the end of that tree line?
 
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Liquid
I'm more concerned that there wasn't an immediate red flag at the wet Croft qualifying after the first incident than a hypothetical accident at Thruxton.

Those conditions were atrocious and several cars continued through at a reasonably quick speed despite local yellow flags. Was it an oil spill on the wet track that started it all?
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My biggest question is, should the qualifying have even started in the first place under those wet conditions? Would it have been safer to delay the session until the rain had eased?
 
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AudiMan2011
My biggest question is, should the qualifying have even started in the first place under those wet conditions? Would it have been safer to delay the session until the rain had eased?
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They'd have no time to do so. Qualifying is late on Saturday afternoon, 4pm, with two championship races, Ginetta GT4 and Juniors, scheduled after. The circuit has a strict 6pm curfew, so without cancelling those other races, qualifying happens only when it's scheduled to happen.
 
TheCracker
They'd have no time to do so. Qualifying is late on Saturday afternoon, 4pm, with two championship races, Ginetta GT4 and Juniors, scheduled after. The circuit has a strict 6pm curfew, so without cancelling those other races, qualifying happens only when it's scheduled to happen.
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The first time the BTCC went to the re-opened Croft was in 1997 and the track was a complete washout and qualifying didn't go ahead; they lined up for race one in championship order at that time and race two was decided by the results of race one.

If the conditions were that bad at the race meeting just gone, surely an arrangement similar to that could have happened?
 
TheCracker
One of the Focus's went wide at the first part of the Jim Clark Esses and cut across the grass back onto the circuit, but took out his oil cooler in the process, which i think then laid a long line of oil across the track before expiring on the wide run-off area before Barcroft.

I think the only marshals post in that area is at the scene of the accident, any waved flags there are going to be approached at speed. There's a copse of trees on the left before the approach to the Esses which would obscure any view of the track before the drivers are already committed to the Esses which are taken almost flat out. Maybe they need another marshals post at the end of that tree line?
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Whorton-Eales was saying afterwards on Facebook that they were told to slow down for double waved yellows but simply had no control due to Davenport's oil spill. They couldn't even see crashed cars. Whilst the red flags could appear to be late at first glance, don't forget race control have to first decide a red flag, then relay this to teams and then to drivers, so the timing makes more sense.
 
Liquid
The first time the BTCC went to the re-opened Croft was in 1997 and the track was a complete washout and qualifying didn't go ahead; they lined up for race one in championship order at that time and race two was decided by the results of race one.

If the conditions were that bad at the race meeting just gone, surely an arrangement similar to that could have happened?
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Yeah, maybe. It's possible that they could of held qualifying on the Sunday morning instead of all the open pit-lane walk and meet the driver fan sessions that usually go on at that time.

The whole BTCC weekend is much more professional then it was back in the late 90's. We were on the support programme for a handful of events back then and the 'show' was run much like a regular club meeting back then. The BTCC race was the main event, but there wasn't all the pomp and ceremony that surrounds it all now. There'd have been more flexibility for last minute timetable changes in similar situations. 👍
 
TheCracker
Yeah, maybe. It's possible that they could of held qualifying on the Sunday morning instead of all the open pit-lane walk and meet the driver fan sessions that usually go on at that time.

The whole BTCC weekend is much more professional then it was back in the late 90's. We were on the support programme for a handful of events back then and the 'show' was run much like a regular club meeting back then. The BTCC race was the main event, but there wasn't all the pomp and ceremony that surrounds it all now. There'd have been more flexibility for last minute timetable changes in similar situations. 👍
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But does that more "professional" output actually mean inflexibility and rigidity in the structure and organisation these days?

It wouldn't have been a major disaster for the spectacle if qualifying was cancelled and the cars lined up in championship order instead but this is us talking 20/20 in hindsight. The fact is, there was one crash which led to several crashes and given the circumstances and weather, the red flag should have been out immediately. Err, more hindsight I know...
 
Liquid
The fact is, there was one crash which led to several crashes and given the circumstances and weather, the red flag should have been out immediately. Err, more hindsight I know...
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That is the real crux of the matter. It was a bit of a freak incident that caused the oil to be on track and when you factor in the weather, the position on track and maybe even poor lighting conditions, plus the fact that you have 30+ cars on track all trying to set times in a short 30 minute session, you can see how the situation could quickly escalate like it did.
 
So this happened in the WTCC.



That's, like, really bad. Really bad. Bad.

Also, I actually went and put the qualifying session for it on in the background yesterday. I prefer to keep stuff I don't like out of my life, but this time watching it was worthwhile because it gave me another reason to laugh at its complete terribleness. Because after the qualifying they did something called 'MAC3'. It's another silly gimmick in a series already filled to the gunwales with them - except the really stupid thing is only two teams were doing it at all, because only Honda and Volvo are sticking with this and are the only teams eligible (although there are two independent teams who have three drivers this weekend, one Citroen, one Lada, who they could have brought along if they were actually interested in, you know, saving face). Also both teams had a car each with damaged suspension making the whole thing particularly silly. But my salient point with it is that even Martin Haven and Matt Neal sounded like they just wanted to end it all throughout it. Honestly, I'm glad Haven's got a gig his ability actually deserves (Formula E) although even that has been slightly spoilt by a new random American who either cuts in out of nowhere and says something no one needed to hear for 5 seconds, or namedrops a sponsor. Sometimes both.

But anyway, yeah. The WTCC is still crap. Even if its numbers are getting better. Slowly. Except TCR now has more than 20 entrants and some of its drivers are now coming from the WTCC. And, of course, it's got the Macau race as well. So they might as well swap names at this point. Heck, I noticed the ETCC, the WTCC support series, is run with TCRs as well and even that only has 13 entrants... Couldn't they just, like, merge them? That way they'd at least look popular. Failing all that, they could just look at BTCC and copy it. That'd make everyone happy.

Oh yeah, and a reminder - joker laps will be a thing today. That, I think, says it all.
 
C-ZETA
So this happened in the WTCC.



That's, like, really bad. Really bad. Bad.

Also, I actually went and put the qualifying session for it on in the background yesterday. I prefer to keep stuff I don't like out of my life, but this time watching it was worthwhile because it gave me another reason to laugh at its complete terribleness. Because after the qualifying they did something called 'MAC3'. It's another silly gimmick in a series already filled to the gunwales with them - except the really stupid thing is only two teams were doing it at all, because only Honda and Volvo are sticking with this and are the only teams eligible (although there are two independent teams who have three drivers this weekend, one Citroen, one Lada, who they could have brought along if they were actually interested in, you know, saving face). Also both teams had a car each with damaged suspension making the whole thing particularly silly. But my salient point with it is that even Martin Haven and Matt Neal sounded like they just wanted to end it all throughout it. Honestly, I'm glad Haven's got a gig his ability actually deserves (Formula E) although even that has been slightly spoilt by a new random American who either cuts in out of nowhere and says something no one needed to hear for 5 seconds, or namedrops a sponsor. Sometimes both.

But anyway, yeah. The WTCC is still crap. Even if its numbers are getting better. Slowly. Except TCR now has more than 20 entrants and some of its drivers are now coming from the WTCC. And, of course, it's got the Macau race as well. So they might as well swap names at this point. Heck, I noticed the ETCC, the WTCC support series, is run with TCRs as well and even that only has 13 entrants... Couldn't they just, like, merge them? That way they'd at least look popular. Failing all that, they could just look at BTCC and copy it. That'd make everyone happy.

Oh yeah, and a reminder - joker laps will be a thing today. That, I think, says it all.
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TCR left Macau for this season. I think it's because of disagreements between Lotti and the Macau GP organisers. WTCC returns there this season. They considered having the return of a TC2 class before the start of the season. I'd be amazed if Volvo are in it for the long haul considering Polestar is steering towards Electric Vehicles.
 
Oops, haven't been paying attention. Well, that's a shame, but the fact they got it over WTCC in the first place probably says a lot. And honestly, if anything could give them something like more entrants, they should take it as soon as they can.
 
I have to admit. This Joker Lap has made WTCC mildly interesting. Although I've only watched Marrakech and this race.
 
AudiMan2011
Jeff Smith's son Brett is to take over his father's seat at Eurotech for the rest of this season.
http://www.btcc.net/2017/06/29/brett-smith-to-take-over-eurotech-racing-seat/
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That's interesting, didn't expect that somewhat, mind Brett is a quick guy. Shame Jeff will be out for the rest of the season, but it's good to see he's on the road to recovery.

Likewise with Luke Davenport, as he's out of his coma now, and is undergoing a physio programme, in the hope of getting back to full health, so that's great to see.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/130435
 
AudiMan2011
Jeff Smith's son Brett is to take over his father's seat at Eurotech for the rest of this season.
http://www.btcc.net/2017/06/29/brett-smith-to-take-over-eurotech-racing-seat/
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That's great news. It's not good that Jeff will be sitting out the rest of the season, but if anyone was to take his seat, his son would most definitely be Jeff's first choice. I don't know anything about Brett, so it'll be interesting to see what he can do.

It's good to hear that Luke is making progress too, although he still has a very long way to go until he will be fit again. Hats off to everyone that has helped and continue to help with Luke's care. :cheers: :bowdown:
 
Ian_83
I don't know anything about Brett, so it'll be interesting to see what he can do.
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Both Jeff and Brett compete in mini racing and Brett regularly outperforms his dad, so if he can get to grips with an NGTC car he could do well.
 
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