Tuning Garage Links & FITT Physics Discussions

Discussion in 'GT6 Tuning' started by Motor City Hami, Nov 30, 2013.

  1. bread82

    bread82

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    Right, makes sense! Its a pain that GT6 doesn't offer a numerical readout, or even just more visual graduations on the G-meter. Here's to hoping we get a proper speed test and skidpan test in a future update. With that and the promised 7-poster things could get really interesting.

    @Motor City Hami
    Agreed, more splits would help. I've often wished that GT even had single corner or short section "license test" type events that allowed tuning, for this very reason. Coupled with driver variability, either improving by learning or getting worse through tiredness, I do find it hard to quantify tuning effects. Sometimes I get the feeling I've improved through some sections at the expense of others but it's hard to say if the splits are very far apart.

    Cheers,

    Bread
     
  2. Motor City Hami

    Motor City Hami

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    Two things:

    First, I need to update a number of links: new tuning garages and some good tuning conversations.

    Second, I did some testing tonight. Below is what I found to help make FF cars rotate. Looking for feedback from the tuning community to see if you are experiencing similar results or completely different.

    Fixes to understeer problems on FF cars in GT6:
    Ride height - lower front, higher rear increases front grip
    Spring rate - lower front, higher rear increases front grip
    Dampers front - wider split between low compression and high extension gains more front grip (same as in GT5)
    Dampers rear - narrow split or no split or higher extension vs. compression reduces rear grip
    Anti-roll bars - low front, high rear increases front grip
    Camber - zero seems to be max grip. Running zero front grip and increased amounts of negative rear camber will reduce rear grip. Keep adding negative camber to the rear until car is willing to rotate. I am finding this to be extremely effective at getting FFs to rotate.
    Toe - FFs like negative settings on both front and rear. Rear seems to affect corner entry the most and front seems to affect mid-corner the most.

    On some FFs I could turn them into tail happy demons. On others, I could make them quick. On a few, I could just get them to go from burning red front tires to shades of yellow.

    Thoughts?
     
  3. ACSR421

    ACSR421

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    I'm getting similar results to everything you said. On spring rates I'm starting to use stiffer rates up front and getting good results but there is a fine balance between front and rear that only seems to add grip and rotation when I find it. Also I notice that softer front spring rates can cause some cars (not as much with FF and more so online) to dart off track when braking from high speeds like the back straight at the Nord.
     
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  4. Zuel

    Zuel (Banned)

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    I'll be able to start testing again after the thirtieth or on when I get my new wheel, the GFGT finally had it. I'm sure my sets will change due to the find back I'll be receiving. Have you tried having the rear a little lower the front and doing the reverse @Motor City Hami?
     
  5. XDesperado67

    XDesperado67 Premium

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    I know its been mentioned before but is anyone finding success using any type of racing tire except on very high powered race cars?

    They seem to be horrible on all the cars I've tried them on except for a maxed out Evo X rally car.

    Tried using hard rain tires on a 550PP street car for the iA rain master race at Spa. Car was basically uncontrollable huge amounts of rear wheel spin nervous front end the slightest steering or throttle inputs would have the car going into weird oscillations and veering off track.
    Reset the game and put the Sport Soft tires back on the car and it became drivable again allowing for a fairly easy win.

    In GT5 higher grades of tires seemed to act more or less as simple grip multipliers and the comfort and sport tires in GT6 still seem to follow a similar pattern. However all the racing compounds seem to create very strange effects on the handling of cars.:odd::drool:
     
  6. Motor City Hami

    Motor City Hami

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    I did not have much fun tonight. Tried working more on suspension tuning. Just really, really frustrated and kind of hating GT6 now. The honeymoon is over, the Victoria Secret underwear have vanished and the granny panties are now all that fill the drawer.
     
  7. donpost

    donpost

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    Usually in racing games I start tuning by looking at the springs and ride height - is there any way to see if you are running out of suspension travel or scraping bodywork on the track? Like maybe a sound cue? I'm a bit lost without telemetry lol
     
  8. Zuel

    Zuel (Banned)

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    I have had great success with race tires on street cars @XDesperado67 and others have well, along with rain tires. You noted that you were having trouble keeping the street car under control in the wet. Were you on the driving line at all? If so that's the trouble, the wet tires don't like wet standing water on rubber. If you break and come on throttle outside the driving line you'll do better. The street tires act better in the rain for some street cars due to the deep tread. Once I get home from holiday I'll share one of my testing sets to see if anyone else will have the same success that I've had with race tires and street cars.

    These are real tire and suspension modeling guys. You must get your head rapped around it. I don't mean to sound like a broken record but this is nothing like GT5, it has surpassed it in so many ways. People asked for REAL WORLD physics and now that we got real world tire and suspension modeling people are stating they don't like it or hate it, which is beyond me. But we do know that some cars are over reacting in some aspect and in others they're fine, which has a lot of us wondering.

    I believe some of us would have better success if we still had Mark, which is a tire engineer, Sean, Jim, Tommy and Nate which are seasoned real world race drivers. But they we're all banned because they challenge one KEY moderator, and that moderator over reacted for being put in their place and banned them all for challenging them. We only have a few true world test drivers besides myself on the forms but I haven't testing in years, which is why I'm being careful with what I share from my test finding. There's no need to steer someone in the wrong direction as many have before.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2013
  9. Zuel

    Zuel (Banned)

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    Correct me if I'm wrong but people are having more success with street tires through having them set flat?
     
  10. jedi09

    jedi09

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    Oops wrong thread.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2013
  11. Zuel

    Zuel (Banned)

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    I managed to log on to my desktop from tablet and I've got an stage one suspension set I want to share. This set is for the Nissan 240SX'96. I know for sure I'm already in stage three of the set so when I get home and make changes after I hook up my new G27 I'll share the new set to get feed back. Here is the set, I've only used this set on Brands Hatch so I'm not sure how it will react on other track. Almost forgot, this set is only for racing tires.

    Suspension
    Ride height
    Front 87 rer 89
    Spring rate
    Front 6.63 rear 6.37
    Dampers (Compression)
    Front 4 rear 4
    Dampers (Extension)
    Front 6 rear 5
    Camber
    Front 1.5 rear 1.0
    Toe angle
    Front -0.15 rear 0.28
     
  12. Zuel

    Zuel (Banned)

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    Has anyone ran the NASCAR with no down force at Daytona? Just thought of it after driving through Daytona.
     
  13. Motor City Hami

    Motor City Hami

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    Sorry. PD may have given us closer to real world physics in GT6 but they did NOT give us closer to real world tuning. I do race in the real world and zero camber is NOT faster, anywhere. If I were to run zero camber in RL the outside of the front tires would wear out in four or five races and maybe even blister on a hot day. In RL I have a simple tool that allows me to measure the heat of the tires at three places across the treads, inside, middle and outside. With these three simple measurements, I can start to understand what my car needs to maximize grip from camber. Most of us will run the inside and middle at close to the same temperature and the outside a bit cooler. When I get these numbers correct in RL I can feel a difference in the cars grip. In GT6, many of the suspension tuning levers remain a mystery. I should be able to raise and lower spring rates (camber, ride height, arb, dampers, toe) and see a difference in lap times or feel a difference in the car. I am only finding small differences in feel and lap times.

    When I raced a Honda Civic in RL I played with rear springs a lot. In GT6 the Honda rear springs are around 3 kgf/mm or about 168 lb/in. In RL I experimented with 350 lb/in (6.25 kgf/mm) up to 650 lb/in (11.6 kgf/mm). To feel differences in the car I would say +/- 100 lb/in (1.8 kgf/mm) was enough to impact lap times. I would call fine tuning +/- 25-50 lb/in (0.45-0.90 kgf/mm). In GT6 if I were to move the rear spring rate to maximum, the rear should bounce around the track and spin out with any wheel input. This is what is frustrating me about GT6 tuning. And the shame is that Kaz races in real life so his team is using all of the tuning tools available to maximize a car's handling.
     
  14. killerjimbag

    killerjimbag

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    Yes I run no downforce. Hami is correct the suspension is a joke
     
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  15. Stotty

    Stotty Premium

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  16. rams1de

    rams1de

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    I went mad with the Mito for the seasonal event, ending with the following:

    RH max/min
    SR min/max
    Com min/max
    Ext min/max
    Cam 0/-0.5
    Toe 0/-0.25

    LSD 5/25/5

    This tune made me faster than friends that consistently beat me by 2s or more in TTs. There's two tunes by quicker racers in the sticky and they are quite similar when I compared them.

    I've not been so radical with other tunes and on powerful cars have generally settled for adjusting LSD and downforce for quick and simple handling gains.

    When I have adjusted ride height, I've had to do the opposite of the in-game instruction to get the desired effect. Although, I'm reading this may vary depending on car. Spring rates are ok, ARB also. Dampers seem to have negligible effect and adding camber just loses grip.
     
  17. donpost

    donpost

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    The thing about using the springs and roll bars etc. for balance is it only works up until a point. If you keep softening the front and stiffening the rear you can get to the point where the rear inside wheel lifts off of the ground then any further adjustment won't help. I have no idea if GT6 simulates this?

    I heard somewhere that racing simulations generally don't run calculations quick enough to really let the effect of the dampers shine through - again no idea if that's relevant to GT6. Everywhere I have been reading says increasing camber from 0.0 doesn't help and now you have said it too I wonder why that is?
     
  18. z06fun

    z06fun

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    This is very true, if you get to 100% weight transfer at the rear, you can't do much more to alter balance on a FF car.

    I also wouldn't be using a FF car for judging how tuning works in GT6 just simply because they are fairly complicated to model properly. In GT5 some very odd setups tended to be fastest for the FF cars. For GT6 I would try a more traditional FR car that starts out near balanced and see what effects things have from there.
     
  19. esoxhntr

    esoxhntr

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    safe to say gt6 (at least this portion of it) was released incomplete and we'll be seeing updates along the way that fix these issues. much like gt5.

    it'd be nice if those updates come sooner than later tho. as i am just as frustrated in some regards as some of you.
     
  20. Mercury1

    Mercury1 Premium

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    Thanks Hami, very informative. I will try out a few culprits over the next few days and get back to you.
     
  21. rams1de

    rams1de

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    I'd previously tested the game's tuning settings on the S2000, which is a nicely balanced car, at Tsukuba and High Speed Ring and came to the same general conclusions as I have with FF cars I've tuned.

    With regards to the Mito tune, it was made out of pure frustration and on remembering extreme settings had worked for people in the early days of GT5.
     
  22. donpost

    donpost

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    I've only had a chance to tune one car so far which is the Nissan GT-R GT500 Base Model '08 and I have noticed a similar thing. The car understeers a lot but even with extreme roll bar settings and oversteer biased spring settings I still just got understeer (I eliminated other causes such as diff etc). Not being a GT vet I'm not sure how it works in GT but in most other racing sims you would easily notice the difference between Softest front/Stiffest rear rollbars and Stiffest front/Softest rear rollbars. Odd.

    I might have asked this before - but is there any way to know if your ride height is too low and scraping the body/bottoming out the suspension? When I tuned the above car I initially had ride height at its lowest setting front and back which was 45/45. On a whim I increased them both to max 70/70 and found way more grip especially in fast corners (where the aero is pushing the car's body down toward the ground as well). So that must mean the body was scraping or the suspension was running out of travel before.
     
  23. Zuel

    Zuel (Banned)

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    Since I've changed to the G27 I've been noticing a lot more about the tires under load, heavy braking and acceleration street tires. I currently have the force feedback on 10 which is still to light for me. I've noticed the wheel becoming very lite as is no feeling under these conditions. Heavy steering input load on the tires going into a turn as in losing grip; Under heavy braking as in brakes locking up even with ABS on; Tires losing grip at low and high speeds.

    Has anyone else with a wheel setting of 10 experience the same lightness?
     
  24. Motor City Hami

    Motor City Hami

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    I don't run settings that high, but yes I can feel the front of the car lose grip. I run FFB at 4.
     
  25. DigitalBaka

    DigitalBaka Premium

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    Ditto. I run at 5, which is default I think, and I can feel it give out when I scorch the tires. It's one of the things I like about GT6 as I don't remember that from 5.
     
  26. ace004

    ace004

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    So guys what settings do you think give the best results for eliminating track out oversteer? I have a few 550pp cars I'm having trouble with on SH tires. They handle great everywhere else. It's only when i get on the throttle that I get snap oversteer. I don't want to completely neuter the cars handling but manage the traction a little better. So what setting or combination of settings would you suggest that won't ruin what work I have already done? Have you found some settings to make just subtle differences? Toe doesn't seem to be making enough of an impact.
     
  27. jtqmopar

    jtqmopar

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    lower lsd intial and accel by 1-2pts at a time. See if that helps. Also, there's the obvious: proper throttle control. Are you getting back on the power 100% too early? Are you applying throttle gradually?
     
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  28. Motor City Hami

    Motor City Hami

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    Molar is in the right place. What are your LSD settings? Too high or too low on LSD accel can cause this symptom.
     
  29. ace004

    ace004

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    The lsd settings for the 500pp miata 07 is 9 initial, 13 accel, and 15 decel. It seems to be heating the tires pretty evenly, but I haven't watched a replay. I know about throttle application, and it's not like the car is out of control. I'm just trying to extract all the grip out of it without ruining steady state cornering speed. I have other cars that grip better but that's apples and oranges. Maybe I'm just hitting the tuning wall where I'm going to have to induce understeer to make it more stable. Thanks for the help guys.
     
  30. Motor City Hami

    Motor City Hami

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    Those LSD settings look really good to me. It has to be something else. Really low ride height? Positive rear toe?