Tuning Garage Links & FITT Physics Discussions

Discussion in 'GT6 Tuning' started by Motor City Hami, Nov 30, 2013.

  1. praiano63

    praiano63 Premium

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    I`m tuning the X-BOW R at the moment. Something that catch my attention, because i drive in roof top view, is how are working the springs.
    With medium and low springs value, the springs are almost all of the time at the end of the travel ,under very high compression, with no room at all to make their job efficiently.
    This cause sudden lost of grip or make the tire loose contact with the asphalt for a moment, messing with your driving line.
    This must happen on a lot of cars in GT6 that have this kind of problems on track, but you can`t see the springs working on them, so the reason why this is happening is not very evident for us.
    I think PD does not match SUSPENSION TRAVEL x SPRING RATE on a lot of cars in the game.

    A good setting range possibility would be:

    LOW RIDE HEIGHT = SHORT SUSPENSION TRAVEL = HARD SPRING that can limit the travel of the suspension under compression with enough room to not go at the end of this suspension travel.

    HIGH RIDE HEIGHT = LARGE SUSPENSION TRAVEL = SOFT SPRINGS allowing the suspension to work across all the suspension travel without reaching the compression limit.


    For this PD need to make match or offer a range of springs rates according to this suspensions.

    If you meet this kind of problems tuning any car, spinning under compression or loosing stability, you can be sure this is the main reason of your problem. Raise the ride height and increase the springs.
    For example the X-BOW work well with MAX ride height and MAX springs. Most of Le Mans cars also don`t like at all low ride height.... more a lot of cars in the game.

    Have a good day everybody.

    ><(((((º>ººººººº
     
  2. iainoflo85

    iainoflo85

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    I agree with you, but many people on this site don't.
     
  3. Zuel

    Zuel (Banned)

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    I agree with you on that 100,000% @iainoflo85, and it's a shame that less than 1% of the members think the same way. Some have evolved and others haven't, it's just the way of the beast.

    ADDITION
    GT BECAME A TOOL, A LEARN TOOL WHEN THE WHEEL WAS INTRODUCED!!
     
  4. Motor City Hami

    Motor City Hami

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    Cool and oh crap, this got pinned. I need to do some updating.
     
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  5. CyKosis1973

    CyKosis1973

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    This could potentially apply to a problem that I've been encountering with a few MR cars. I've just started a conversation with @Motor City Hami on a similar topic, but related to dampers. I'm going to try a few more things this afternoon, including the above. Habitually I've been running soft springs with elevated ride height, as I spend almost all my time charging around the 'Ring, so there's a possibility that I'm running my springs too soft...

    {Cy}
     
  6. BlueShift

    BlueShift

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  7. Motor City Hami

    Motor City Hami

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    Sorry man. I will add you today.
     
  8. Zuel

    Zuel (Banned)

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    Are you encountering this with all the cars you've tuned so far? And how long is the duration of the tires?
     
  9. praiano63

    praiano63 Premium

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    Not at all. Let´s say 80 to 90% of the cars i have tested and tuned don´t like low ride heiht settings, under the medium ride height. Even with strong springs they don´t work well under compression during weight transfer.
    The X BOW just reveal clearly what i was suspcting or just feeling on this kind of cars.
    The reaction is the same, but seeing the springs only working with full compression with no place to do their job, you can associate the reaction with the visual cause of it.
    This is my opinion. Perhaps the numbers are good and suitable ,but the effect is wrong.
    I´m not a specialist of this things, far to be, not even an amateur, but if a car of 1000 kg with the max ride height and sport hard tires, and setted to 15 kgf/mm can compress fully his springs in any normal turn, i think there is something wrong.
    If the number is OK, perhaps people like GARAGE YOKOMICHI JAPAN (real shop JAPAN) can tell us bout , then the physic interpretation of this value by PD is wrong.
    In my humble opinion, one more time i`m not a specialist at all, but i can fel this clearly in GT.

     
  10. BlueShift

    BlueShift

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    RH is Ride Heigth, not spring course. Most cars have similar spring course, since the wheels are more or less the "same sizes" (huge double quote there) and atrtached "on the same spot") (very huge double quotes).

    RH is what is left on top of spring course anyway.
    I often use RH * spring rates = the whole car in front, adapting rear SR due to weigth distrib, and adapt + or - same % if I feel the car is too soft or too stiff, it's a good starting point I was allready using in GT5 (I used RH from GT4 cars).

    I'm programing a software for this, as I'm allready fed up with making Front RH* Front SR * rear weigth / front weigth...
    The UI is ready but I have design problems. Got 4 sliders : RH (low to high), SR (soft to stiff), RH balance (low front / high rear to high front / low rear) and SR balance (front higher than rear to rear higher than front in comparaison of the weigth balance).

    The problem is designing max values of the sliders atm esp SR, and how they will move if you touch one... All of this depending on the max/min RH/SR in the game, the weigth distrib and the weigth. It's a lot more complicated than I though. I think I will put checkboxes to lock the sliders but it's really hard in fact.

    I used sliders so mister anybody can set SR/RH... Will output strengh under rh too for advanced tuners. I'm not sure to forget anythng.

    And I don't even took aero in it :) And metric system... Gah. Been the whole afternoon on it, americans will wait, I don't even know what a lbs is and what the SR clicks represents. I hope RH is not in inches because it would be a ****ing floating point number !
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2014
  11. praiano63

    praiano63 Premium

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    Check the X-BOW with max RH and min RH then you will se clearly that the spring course is a lot shorter and the springs more compressed with min RH. Obviously with th same weight on it.
    This car show this very clearly.
     
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  12. BlueShift

    BlueShift

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    praiano63, maybe because you used a lot of damper ? Look at this :
    The spring course is 1/4 of the length of the spring because of the dampers (it's a guess, I've no irl experience about cars).
     
  13. praiano63

    praiano63 Premium

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    Im tlking about the car in a static position,stoped, dampers don´t have any influence on this.
     
  14. jtqmopar

    jtqmopar

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    Flex/motion may only be 1/4 the size of the spring, but at 0:54 it is almost completely compressed.
     
  15. BlueShift

    BlueShift

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    He hits the ride at 0:54, because of the size of the dampers, no ?
    The dampers are the little cylinders within the spring, rigth ?
     
  16. jtqmopar

    jtqmopar

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    Yes, they are the cylinders in the spring, but no, they don't control how far the spring will travel, only how fast it can expand and contract. The only shocks that will support weight like a spring are older air shocks.


    And, not air ride, like people seem to think these days. Air shocks look just like normal shocks, except there is a fitting for an air chuck to put more pressure in, and as a side effect will support some of the weight
     
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  17. praiano63

    praiano63 Premium

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    Both pics are with the car stopped.
    RH MAX 105
    [​IMG]
    RH MINI 50
    [​IMG]
     
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  18. BlueShift

    BlueShift

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    Do you mean, at constant SR ? That is normal I think, the spring stays the same strength extended or not. If you have strong SR, i will prevent the ride to hit (under normal racing circonstances - not bumpers slideover circonstances or car crash)
     
  19. BlueShift

    BlueShift

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    It's oil, rigth ?
    For the spring course, just an idea like this, I remeber having since GT4 or 5, I was thinking that he has big comp or big ext and the oppposite for the second damper (I think the top is comp). When the comp touch the ext it's a ride hit, no ?
    If the strengh of the damper is related to their size, then we get say 20 "units" of spring course minus the dampers points... "unit" depending of the suspension system and size of the wheel I think.
    What is new to me is the RH removing spring course aswell. It makes perfect sense. I always though until today that RH was the spring course and could add on top of this the damper gap somehow :)

    (excuse for my irl car noobness. Changing my wind fan alone is my only mecanic pride, I suck at it :) (old Clio RS 1 liter 9 Disiel beebop edition '94 - 69hp / 1350kg no tdi 0-100kmph in say 20 seconds watch me, no, stare at me coming boopboop ! :) :)). My car is a cheap pig but as old diesel it has torque, every gipsy wants to buy it from me because it's indestructible and time-proof :) :))
    Yeah I live in the Snatch movie :p, got maybe the crappiest car in the whole town :)

    Beware of the sexiness of my car :
    http://images03.olx.fr/ui/1/34/50/1573450_1.jpg

    I've got alga everywhere on the car on top of this. This detail is what calls the ladies. This + the historic car insurance I will need in 5 years. Plus, I can go in a drive without stopping, too. And she can brake. She could also never stop braking two years ago, so see, brakes works. Lots.

    Guess what ? 195km/h in it when I was young and stupid (and before Sarkozy made France a giant radar) :)

    Renault Clio oldmobile, cars for lifetime :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2014
  20. praiano63

    praiano63 Premium

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    the spring stays the same strength extended or not.????? Not in this galaxy.

    If you have strong SR, i will prevent the ride to hit This is what i`m trying to explain, even strong springs setted to the max prevent to hit end of travel, even in a normal condition during a simple turn.
     
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  21. Zuel

    Zuel (Banned)

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    Raising the car to high will give the same adverse effect as lowing the car to it's maximum, you can adjust to compensate for this but you will not get the full capability of the suspension. Lower the car lower the travel of the suspension, raising the car the further the suspension must travel. The lower you go in ride height the the stronger the dampeners must be along with the opposite for a soft suspension. Pending on the weight, travel of the cars suspension, ride height of the car will dictate the final travel. The lower the car the short the area the car must travel up and down over the track, the compression combats that weight traveling down with the help from the springs and the extension counter acts the travel to keep the tires on the ground. My current ride height and part of my suspension set is a s follows. I'm have very fine results with the set and I'm planning to go lower in ride height along with making adjustment to the suspension. With this set I've been able to pick up two seconds on the X-Bow TT.

    Ride Height
    69 Front 72 Rear
    Spring Rate
    5.65 Front 11.52 Rear
    Damper Compression
    7 Front 6 RearDampers Extension
    6 Front 5 Rear
     
  22. Motor City Hami

    Motor City Hami

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    Well those photos are completely inaccurate. Lowering ride height should have kept the exact same spring compression and just moved the spring collar further up the shock.
     
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  23. BlueShift

    BlueShift

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    I don't understand why you keep trying to make me understand something I understood 10 years ago in GT games :)
    I was saying a spring @10kg/mm stays 10kg/mm extended or not. Not fully extended, or full compressed of course.
    When you have high RH or low, it stays at 10 kg/mm... The spring course will change though we agree on that. My cars are alway set low and never hit the ride (under normal blabla).

    If you want to see the spring course for any car, you can also use the oil stands and makes guesses compairing the wheel size :)

    Oh I see now what he meant. It seems to me these are ARoll bars...
     
  24. jtqmopar

    jtqmopar

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    You guys need to get progression through your minds. You're both saying the same thing, but on different sides of the topic.

    The springs are going to stay the same strength throughout travel. However, the amount of force will need to be greater in order to compress it further.
    A 10kg/mm spring takes 10kg of force to compress the spring 1mm, 20kg will compress a spring 2mm, and so on.
     
  25. Zuel

    Zuel (Banned)

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    You must remember it's just photos of the game.
     
  26. praiano63

    praiano63 Premium

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    This is why i´ll stop this blablabla about things i can´t xplain or understand in english. it´s Over for me.
    Back to tuning cars the way i feel, don´t need to ask me how or why.
     
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  27. Hasassin_X

    Hasassin_X

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    yea no kidding Zuel I tried this yesterday and it was a disaster you're right the car locked up and slowed me down just going to keep it how i had it at 1 it still locks but not as much.
     
  28. donpost

    donpost

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    I think that we can all agree that lower ride height = lower centre of gravity with the associated benefits, at the cost of reduced "wiggle room" in the suspension before you hit the stops or scrape the body on the road, right?

    Thing is you just can't tell with any certainty when you are hitting the stops. If you have it way too low you can notice a loss in grip, but otherwise its hard to tell. We need suspension telemetry like in Forza! I'm hoping they are going to add something like that in an update...
     
  29. Motor City Hami

    Motor City Hami

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    Last edited: Jan 18, 2014
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  30. Blood*Specter

    Blood*Specter

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    Folks, I originally asked this question in a different FITT thread. I think this is the best spot to ask:

    Has there been a verdict on flat floors and 1-2 inch up rims in relation to handling and speed?
    I have a 91 NSX running at 480 pp. I don't think I've ever had an issue with handling (MR in GT6) with the NSX.

    The Audi GT3's however are just pigs (for me) to drive.:ouch:
    I am going to start removing all wheel and flat floor mods I've made and setting all camber and toe to zero. My typical camber is 2.0 front/1.0 to 1.5 rear. I am interested in what this group has to say.:tup: