Tuning Garage Links & FITT Physics Discussions

Motor City Hami · Nov 30, 2013

FITT GT6 Physics Discussions and Tuning Garage List

FITT - Federation of International Tuners and Test-Drivers will be working together to decode the new and improved tuning physics in GT6. The FITT members who have remained actively playing GT5 right through the end have been discussing how to approach the new physics for the few months leading up to GT6. This forum is intended to bring a little more organization to the physics discussion over the way we did things in GT5. There were many, many, many threads on tuning, all with a few good bits in them, but just too scattered to make any sense out of them. For the FITT tuners, this will be our starting point. We expect to see individual threads that single out one or two tuning details or individual testing posted within tuning garages. When that happens and if the conversation adds value to the community, we are likely to link it here.

Everyone is welcome to join the conversation and post their test results. FITT is still debating a bit about one common approach, all using the same car, same track, etc. Vs. individual testing spread across the spectrum with a more common way to report results. In any event, the fun will be within these conversations. We look forward to the findings, the experiences, the heated debates and all that the new GT6 physics have to offer.

Polyphony Digital comments on the all new GT6 physics:
I thought that a fitting first post for the thread should include the words from Polyphony Digital. If I missed anything of merit, please drop me a PM or a comment in the thread and I will be sure to add.

“The physics engine, the steering controls; those parts of the user interface are things that we fine tune-right up to the very end.” “Yamauchi told Famitsu that the game's physics engine has already been upgraded from that demo.” It has been said that the GT6 physics engine is likely to be shared with GT7.

Yamauchi also said players will notice the new physics engine as soon as they get behind the steering wheel. "The steering is going to feel very different — the experience is a lot richer, and I think when a player breaks into a corner when turning, when they switch to giving it more throttle, they will definitely notice a difference in the movement in the car. The feel they will get when they hit a curb on the side of the road will also feel different — the car will bounce. It will all be very different from before."

Motor City Hami · Nov 30, 2013

Power, Torque and Straight Line Speed

With this section we intend to capture the conversations about gaining straight line speed. Which tuning parts give a slight advantage over others? What gains can be made in the transmission? Does aero have an effect on acceleration and or top speed? What affects do the new rim/tire sizes have on straight line speed? Do suspension settings have positive or negative effects on straight speed (toe, camber, ride height, springs, dampers, etc.)?

Links to Conversations:
Transmission tuning by Praiano https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...ni-diablo-gt-00-600pp-ss.291084/#post-9004465
Motor City Hamilton adding the right parts - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/motor-city-tunes-gt6.291066/#post-9003798
Link 3

Motor City Hami · Nov 30, 2013

Motor City Hami · Nov 30, 2013

Data Logger

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/data-logger-what-uses-have-people-found.306705/

Ok. So I started playing with the data logger tonight and there are a few useful features. I still wish we had tire temperature at inside, middle and outside of the tire. I could do much, much more with that data. Crosses fingers and hopes that PD will wake up to this data point used all over the world in real life racing and they add it to GT7. Ok. Rant over. I was able to tune as normal on feel and get the car most of the way there. The data logger helped me to find tune these items:

1.) Wheel Speed. I am currently tuning FF cars. I found that consistently at every on power through corner exit situation that the inside drive wheel is traveling faster than the outside. This indicates that the LSD Accel setting is too low. I was to the point with the car "on feel" where I was within the sweet spot. There were about four settings that felt good to me; between 12 and 16. I could still sense a bit of wheel spin, but could not identify which wheel was the problem. Normally, I would have stopped here in my tuning. With the data logger, I now have a way to quickly see if the LSD Accel setting is set properly. I cannot yet find a data point for LSD Decel or Initial Torque.

2.) Speed and RPM. This is great for comparing two tunes or two cars. Change the Display Reference to "Match to Current" and this will place the two tunes in the same location on the track. I think I can use this to tune gear boxes and for exchanging tuning parts. I guess this could help answer the age old question about which is better, horsepower or torque.

3.) Comparing drivers. This can become a great tool for comparing drivers. I would love to get a lap save and the tune that did it from someone like @@R1600Turbo for comparison. I have been trying to become a better driver in the game. This could help me to see his throttle pick up points, braking points, steering input, etc. and allow for me to run lap after lap to improve my driving.

4.) Time Difference. Many times when testing, I find that my fastest tune was from getting through that one tricky corner with alien like speed. I am not a good enough driver to duplicate alien speeds so I usually clear the lap and start my comparisons again. Using the comparison ability of the data logger, it is really easy to compare the tune in all corners on the track vs. just using the two or three time splits that show up while doing a time trial. I included Speed, RPM, Longitudinal G-Force, Brakes and Time Difference in Set 1. I have two tunes that are virtually on top of each other except for one corner. Car one hit a faster lap time, but car two is more fun to drive. I would have tossed out car two in the past. Now I may go back to car two and refine it a little bit and keep it.

5.) Ride Height. I think this data is useless in its current form. With wheel speed the MPH is displayed and changes as you move through the lap. Why did they only use a dot for ride height? This could be so much more useful if they would have just used the same method here. Using the L toggle to extend the scale helps, but still useless. Also, if the vertical scale showed more increments, maybe it would become more useful? I thought that this could also be used to tell if the car were bouncing or if the shocks were too soft... nope. Really need this combined with the old load indicator.

So in conclusion, the data logger is a good start, but could have been so much more. But that is kind of the norm with PD, isn't it?

Motor City Hami · Nov 30, 2013

King_George · Nov 30, 2013

Wow. This is really cool. Things like this really do make this a great community to be a part of.

doblocruiser · Nov 30, 2013

Great topic Hami! I have directly a question: How will the difference be made between wheel and ds3 tuning and testing results?

Motor City Hami · Nov 30, 2013

doblocruiser
Great topic Hami! I have directly a question: How will the difference be made between wheel and ds3 tuning and testing results?

Great question. I do still use both the wheel and DS3. The FITT tuners are split between DS3 and wheel. I think we all need to note the controller we used and any mods when we post tunes or test results.

doblocruiser · Nov 30, 2013

Well I use a DS3. However I don't think I can add a lot as a tuner because all I learned is the info posted in the GT5 forum by you and praiano and the info available in GT5. The expertise in here is by far more I can comprehend. I will of course create of few tunes myself since I have a working PS3 again

but I can helpout as a testdriver if needed.

biffa3 · Nov 30, 2013

Really looking forward to seeing what you guys come up with. Will hopefully be around for some testing and to participate in future FITT events.

Johnnypenso · Nov 30, 2013

I have a suggestion for F.I.T.T. How about coming up with some fundamental recommendations for garage layouts? Of course they won't be mandatory, but I suspect we'll be absolutely flooded with garages in the coming month and it would be nice if there were at least some parts of garages which are F.I.T.T. members (or anyone for that matter) that were standardized. Everyone has their own personal layout but I'm thinking things for each tune like this:

1. What tracks were used to tune the car?
2. What controller was used?
3. Was it tuned online or off and what were the track settings for grip, wear etc.
4. Was it tuned for a specific purpose like Touge, Drag, Circuit Racing, the Nurb' etc.
5. Credentials. Any real life experience? What did you do in GT5 tuning wise? Enter any F.I.T.T. contests and how did you do? Driving credentials? Are you a WRS member and at what level? GTAcademy?

A generic template of sorts might also help out some of the new guys to avoid those awkward looking "just typed it in" kind of tunes.

jtqmopar · Dec 1, 2013

Johnnypenso
A generic template of sorts might also help out some of the new guys to avoid those awkward looking "just typed it in" kind of tunes.

I agree with this, except in the GT5 section I've seen a few pdf templates that you can fill in and I prefer the "standardized [by me, for me]" tune format that I adopted for my GT5 garage.

Also, it looks like I'll be spending a lot of time in the tuning section. The rest of the GT6 sections have gone crazy.

XDesperado67 · Dec 1, 2013

While a standardized layout for all posted tunes is not really feasible, asking that FITT participants add a footnote to their tunes that cover how and where they have built the tune is very reasonable.

i.e.
Tuned using DS3 offline at Trial Mountain.
Grip reduction real, no tire wear or fuel consumption. ABS1, Driving Line and Automatic Transmission, no other aids.

Hopefully GT6 won't have the large gap between online and offline handling that GT5 initially had, but still making note of how and where a car is tuned will be an invaluable asset to compare results and aid non-tuners looking for tunes.

Johnnypenso · Dec 1, 2013

XDesperado67
While a standardized layout for all posted tunes is not really feasible, asking that FITT participants add a footnote to their tunes that cover how and where they have built the tune is very reasonable.

i.e.
Tuned using DS3 offline at Trial Mountain.
Grip reduction real, no tire wear or fuel consumption. ABS1, Driving Line and Automatic Transmission, no other aids.

Hopefully GT6 won't have the large gap between online and offline handling that GT5 initially had, but still making note of how and where a car is tuned will be an invaluable asset to compare results and aid non-tuners looking for tunes.

A "suggested" standardized layout to help newer guys get started. I assume most of the experienced guys already have things nailed down.

Motor City Hami · Dec 1, 2013

I just noticed in the tuning menu that there are four choices for suspension.
Racing suspension: soft
Racing suspension: hard
Suspension: rally
Full Customization

I wonder if I need to build basic quick tunes anymore or if these would do just fine. Guess I will test it. I have to believe that there will still be different advantages for different drive trains.

Also, with PD listing both a racing soft and hard, does this now indicate that track specific tunes will provide more advantage than in GT5? In 5, I found that there wasn't much difference in tunes between bumpy vs. smooth tracks. For example, I would only change ride height (higher for Nurburgring and lower for Fuji). In GT4 I would have also softened the springs and dampers, but in GT5 I saw no advantage. So, I hope that we see a bigger spread in the advantage of track specific tunes. Yes this will be harder to keep up with, but it is also more like real life.

doblocruiser · Dec 1, 2013

deleted

CSLACR · Dec 2, 2013

Johnnypenso
I have a suggestion for F.I.T.T. How about coming up with some fundamental recommendations for garage layouts? Of course they won't be mandatory, but I suspect we'll be absolutely flooded with garages in the coming month and it would be nice if there were at least some parts of garages which are F.I.T.T. members (or anyone for that matter) that were standardized. Everyone has their own personal layout but I'm thinking things for each tune like this:

1. What tracks were used to tune the car?
2. What controller was used?
3. Was it tuned online or off and what were the track settings for grip, wear etc.
4. Was it tuned for a specific purpose like Touge, Drag, Circuit Racing, the Nurb' etc.
5. Credentials. Any real life experience? What did you do in GT5 tuning wise? Enter any F.I.T.T. contests and how did you do? Driving credentials? Are you a WRS member and at what level? GTAcademy?

A generic template of sorts might also help out some of the new guys to avoid those awkward looking "just typed it in" kind of tunes.

People get touchy around 5. Maybe everything but 5. I know people that could fill out everything mentioned in 5,(except for FITT contests) and it might just sound like bragging.

I haven't really decided what to do for my GT6 garage yet. Exciting, but total stale-mate until Friday. :/

King_George · Dec 2, 2013

Johnnypenso
I have a suggestion for F.I.T.T. How about coming up with some fundamental recommendations for garage layouts? Of course they won't be mandatory, but I suspect we'll be absolutely flooded with garages in the coming month and it would be nice if there were at least some parts of garages which are F.I.T.T. members (or anyone for that matter) that were standardized. Everyone has their own personal layout but I'm thinking things for each tune like this:

1. What tracks were used to tune the car?
2. What controller was used?
3. Was it tuned online or off and what were the track settings for grip, wear etc.
4. Was it tuned for a specific purpose like Touge, Drag, Circuit Racing, the Nurb' etc.
5. Credentials. Any real life experience? What did you do in GT5 tuning wise? Enter any F.I.T.T. contests and how did you do? Driving credentials? Are you a WRS member and at what level? GTAcademy?

A generic template of sorts might also help out some of the new guys to avoid those awkward looking "just typed it in" kind of tunes.

Maybe I missed something, but what's the difference between tuning online vs. off?

iainoflo85 · Dec 2, 2013

King_George
Maybe I missed something, but what's the difference between tuning online vs. off?

The physics were different in GT5 online and off, they changed it though to make them a bit closer, but there was still a slight difference in times.

CSLACR · Dec 2, 2013

Interesting question. We'll have to see.

MrGrado · Dec 2, 2013

For quite a while with GT5, there were differences between online and offline. There was a patch that made online exactly the same as how offline was like all along.

King_George · Dec 2, 2013

iainoflo85
The physics were different in GT5 online and off, they changed it though to make them a bit closer, but there was still a slight difference in times.

MrGrado
For quite a while with GT5, there were differences between online and offline. There was a patch that made online exactly the same as how offline was like all along.

Ah ok. I had to give up GT5 before that update so I guess I missed it. Thanks guys!

BLACK86 · Dec 5, 2013

Really glad ive seen this thread, many thanks in advance for it

FCWC · Dec 5, 2013

I wanted to to comment about : wheel vs ds3 and also about soft vs hard.
Even though there are different possible "correct" tuning possibilities for a car they will all share the same principal that makes it "correct". That is balance. Once said balance is found going from wheel to DS3 will not effect suspension. It only effects driving style. Reflected mostly in braking and acceleration.
Which is like retuning for tires. Had someone who I knew had a good tune.
Normally using RS's retuning for SH's. I tried to explain to him that the tire only effected grip level. (I never could tell any sidewall differentiation) So that he should only change LSD and Camber/Toe.

As far as hard vs bumpy. Odd Hami - rebound (extension) would be the first to be changed.
then ARB's. Springs being weight/height. I only changed SP/HE if I bottomed out to much after "balance" is found.

As far as the Race Soft/Race hard etc.
Well maybe it is/will be the amount of changed allowed. Instead of having say +/- 50 clicks. It will be +/- 25 clicks
Just that hard starts at the highest/hardest soft setting. Allot of cars in GT5 need more play room in that regards.

I really hope the KW tuning rig pays dividends.
I need better tools for camber and toe. Dampers aren't as big an issue. Though it might make it allot quicker since it seems we don't have to change and go drive again.

Motor City Hami · Dec 6, 2013

Have I missed any open garages? https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/fitt-reverse-engineers-the-gt6-physics.291068/#post-9004012

Let me know and I will add a link.

DigitalBaka · Dec 6, 2013

I'll toss you a link when I ~~stick my neck out for the abuse~~ get mine posted.

Motor City Hami · Dec 7, 2013

Here are my initial impressions on GT6 physics and tuning after the first three hours of game play.
· This is the best Gran Turismo game of the series, right out of the wrapper
· PD got the physics right
· Your driving style must change for GT6
· Early thoughts on tuning is that lots of garages could be out of business very soon

Granted, three hours of play is a limited amount of data so I am not offering up concrete testing and results this early on. I simply want to share the thoughts in my head so far. I have only driven the Honda Fit that we are required to buy, the ’89 MX-5 Miata in obnoxious green and, of course, the 2013 Mustang Boss 302 in Gotta Have it Green. I have not added any parts or tuned in any way. I just wanted to spend some time getting a feel for the new physics.

First, this is the best Gran Turismo game of the series, right out of the wrapper. I dug out the PS2 this week and tuned the ’89 MX-5 Miata in GT1, GT2, GT3, GT4 and GT5. With each game version the physics engine got better. One and two were very close in behavior. A bad tune would weave down the straights and most settings worked well in the corner. If you could get the car to behave on corner exit, you could be really fast. I am guessing that there wasn’t a tire model in the programming back then. By GT3, tuning became more about corner speed. The straight away weave was gone and most of the gains came in mid-corner through exit behavior. It was still a bit arcade like because you could just toss the car on entry and set up the tune to catch it on exit. It was a very un-natural way to go fast. GT 4 took a bigger leap. It introduced more braking zone realism. If you came in too hot, the wheels would lock up and there was no saving the corner. To me, GT4 is the first of the titles where the cars had that “roll through the corner” feel. You could begin to tune for corner entry, mid and exit. The issue with GT4 was that even a little over done on entry and the car would lock up into a long slide. In real life, if you mess up a little and you can still recover if the mistake is caught early enough. The other issue with GT4 was that you couldn’t really tell which tires were smoking. There wasn’t much evidence for tuning so it was a whole lot of trial and error.

GT5 physics were a giant leap forward over the previous titles, yet still not entirely real worldly. There was better evidence of which corner of the car was the issue, but still a great amount of trial and error. The “roll through the corner” feel was even better in GT5. I still thought that the corner entry programming wasn’t true to life. The penalty for over cooking it a little bit was way harsher than I ever experience in real life. I get it that 20 mph too fast on the entry to a 60 mph corner should put your car upside down into the weeds – but 5 or 10 mph too fast? I have had plenty of braking zone lock ups in real life where I was able to just breath off the brake pedal a little (relax my foot and drive in a little deeper before turn in) saving the car. I’d lose a few tents or maybe a position, but I wouldn’t go bouncing off into the grass for five seconds. The other major flaw with GT5 that we have all discussed at length is with some of the tuning adjustments not working like the guide said and certainly not real world like.

Now, for GT6, I am in love with the physics so far. This game is so much more fun to play right out of the wrapper. With all of the previous titles, if a car was programmed to push in stock form (as most were), there was very little that you could do with the steering and braking inputs to encourage more rotation on entry or mid corner. I could game the system on the previous titles by putting really aggressive brake balance splits in place just to encourage corner entry rotation, but why were the driving inputs so useless? The feel that I am getting from GT6 so far is that the driving inputs have much more effect on the car than ever before. Here is an example. Think about turn seven on Trail Mountain Raceway in GT5. If you entered that corner too hot, caught your mistake early and tried to brake or scrub some speed or turn more aggressively, nothing could save it. The car just pushed super wide, out to the rock or until your speed dropped by 1/3. GT5 seemed to be programmed for a two second recovery of red tires. That’s just not realistic. In real life, again, I could over cook a corner by a small amount and still pull off a save. When I raced Honda Civics, if I pushed too hard, the nose would slide. A very little lift off the throttle would move a bit of weight to the nose and the sliding tires would regain grip. I think GT5 was programmed with three levels; blue cold tires, white optimum tires and red overheated tires. The progression between these seemed to be on a scale of like 1 to 5. In GT6, I think it is more like a scale of 1 to 10? GT6 is the most realistic video game that I have ever played. Just like in real life, you can step over the line, catch your mistake early and save the corner. Yes they still kept programming in to realize the banzai corner entry that should put you into the weeds. I am very impressed.

Your driving style must change for GT6. I am going to give away the secret to driving fast in GT6. I did not invent this driving technique – I just noticed it from watching many, many of the GT Academy qualifier replays. It made me instantly faster in the GT Academy game and it only got smoother with the release of GT6. PD has reprogrammed trail braking in GT6. It is much more defined than in GT5 and more pronounced than I think it should be – not quite real life. Try this and tell me if you notice it too.
Test one: After a long straight, brake hard in a straight line, jump off the brakes at the last second and turn in.
Test two: After the same long straight, brake hard, but slowly lift off of the brakes as you turn in.

I noticed in the GT Academy version that right at the very last bit of braking the car would immediately add a bunch more rotation. It wasn’t a smooth transition either. It was kind of like… brake, brake, and brake, turn a little, brake, turn a little, done braking and snap turn. By the release of GT6, it feels to me like they have smoothed it out quite a bit. It works and is easy to repeat in the game, but it is the only part of the physics model that doesn’t feel real world to me. I feel like it is the input that games the simulator. There is too much of an advantage to mastering this technique vs. not. If you are still using x and square for throttle and brake, you are sunk. It is time to learn how to drive with the analog sticks or index finger buttons or buy a wheel.

My early thought on tuning is that a lot of garages could be out of business very soon. The Honda Fit had a bit of push, but I could manage it with the wheel inputs. The Miata handled as well, if not better than my GT5 version. In all of the previous titles where LSD tuning existed, the LSD over powered everything else. Even on small, low horsepower cars like these, if the LSD settings were left stock, you lost lap time. One wheel would always break loose first. I abused the Fit and Miata in tonight’s GT6 session and not once did I break a drive tire loose independently of the other. There goes my big tuning advantage. :irked:

When I moved up to the Mustang Boss 302, I saw more bad habits in the car than the lower powered machines. It desperately needs a lower LSD accel number as I got outside wheel spin pretty easily. The frightening thing is that right out of the dealership, with no tuning, it was really fun to drive. In previous GT titles, the Mustangs were garbage. Even throwing every trick in the book to get them to rotate brought them up to drivable, but not up to being fast.

Again, I haven’t turned a wrench yet so this is a very early thought. I am sure that we will uncover tuning tricks that will make for quicker lap times. I do not doubt our abilities as a community. I just wonder if the two and three second gains over stock configurations are gone.

What do you think so far, at the end of day one?

photonrider · Dec 7, 2013

@Motor City Hami - Keith - you said:

"Just like in real life, you can step over the line, catch your mistake early and save the corner. Yes they still kept programming in to realize the banzai corner entry that should put you into the weeds. I am very impressed."

I agree with this very much. Losing control of the car over here in Canada, where the roads can turn to black ice overnight, is no strange feeling - recovering the line is almost instinctive. Having played GT6 for just 30 minutes, I already feel more realism in this area. I can only imagine how realistic, with the right kind of rig, the simulation is now.

Also: keep up the good work! You know I've read you for years.

krenkme · Dec 7, 2013

In the little time spent "tuning" rather then racing, I found that the stock LSD worked much better then when I messed with it. Could be that I couldn't get it right, or ... Not sure :confused:

The suspension makes a big difference with even the smallest of adjustments and that is where speed will be found on the track (need more testing)

Haven't messed with the trans yet, but I will :dopey:

All around, I like it so far. Can't wait to see what we all come up with

Mini Stiggy · Dec 7, 2013

krenkme
In the little time spent "tuning" rather then racing, I found that the stock LSD worked much better then when I messed with it. Could be that I couldn't get it right, or ... Not sure

The suspension makes a big difference with even the smallest of adjustments and that is where speed will be found on the track (need more testing)

Haven't messed with the trans yet, but I will

All around, I like it so far. Can't wait to see what we all come up with

I have also found that the stock LSD seems to work best(I'm using GT3 cars). Haven't really done anything with suspension yet.

Tuning Garage Links & FITT Physics Discussions

Motor City Hami

Motor City Hami

Motor City Hami

Motor City Hami

Motor City Hami

King_George

doblocruiser

Motor City Hami

doblocruiser

biffa3

Johnnypenso

Well known double poster

jtqmopar

XDesperado67

The Harvey Wallbanger

Johnnypenso

Well known double poster

Motor City Hami

doblocruiser

CSLACR

King_George

iainoflo85

CSLACR

MrGrado

King_George

BLACK86

FCWC

Motor City Hami

DigitalBaka

How hard can it be?

Motor City Hami

photonrider

krenkme

Mini Stiggy

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