Update 2.10 - Major PP changes

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On launch day, PS2 was $299

PS3 on the other hand was $799

The difference in GT5 units sold in my opinion is mostly due to the fact that, not as many people have PS3's man. Theyre effing expensive

Also you arent taking into account DLC. PD Is making a killing on DLC I can only speculate.

DLC is the future of gaming. People play games for years and years. So why stick to a single 50 dollar profit when you can release tidbits here and there eventually adding up to, and surpassing the cost of the game itself. Genius.

GT aint going anywhere

PS3 was under $299 when GT5 was released and has been for years.

Pfff, POLEEEASE @Johnnypenso.... End of GT? HA! Don't make me laugh.. :sly: Just because GT5 sold 9 mill... Seriously dude? :irked: Maybe because the PS3 was (like @seanneedscar said), was to expensive at the time...

Do stay on topic thank you very much... U_U

Large corporations think years and years ahead and have no emotional attachment to their products. Decisions are made in boardrooms not in front of a PS3. The trend in this case is in the wrong direction. If GT6 is only 6 or 7 Mill, then the next one might be 4 or 5 Mill. I don't know what the breakeven point is for this franchise but I'll bet they need to sell several million copies to breakeven given the high development costs.

So the decision could easily be, "Sorry PD, the writing is on the wall, time for something new, this realistic thing just isn't working"...and on to something else. That's how it works. That's business.

And to relate all this to the topic at hand, screw ups like this latest 2.10 update and completely turning the PP system upside down, don't help.
 
On launch day, PS2 was $299

PS3 on the other hand was $799

The difference in GT5 units sold in my opinion is mostly due to the fact that, not as many people have PS3's man. Theyre effing expensive

Firstly PS3 was not $799 on launch, it was $599 for the top model and secondly as has been pointed out already PS3 was already $299 by the time GT5 released so your point is pretty moot.
 
Large corporations think years and years ahead and have no emotional attachment to their products. Decisions are made in boardrooms not in front of a PS3. The trend in this case is in the wrong direction. If GT6 is only 6 or 7 Mill, then the next one might be 4 or 5 Mill. I don't know what the breakeven point is for this franchise but I'll bet they need to sell several million copies to breakeven given the high development costs.

So the decision could easily be, "Sorry PD, the writing is on the wall, time for something new, this realistic thing just isn't working"...and on to something else. That's how it works. That's business.

I see, okay.
 
YES, GT5 did sell well. But I have a sneaky suspicion that a lot of casuals/new comers were turned off by GT5 and will think twice about even considering GT6. If GT6 is a disappointment, what would the future be? How much of the GT base would remain?

I disagree with you here. The vast majority of people going into purchasing GT5 (or any sim type game) know what they are buying. A missing feature or two won't detract them from a future purchase.

You might be asking yourself right now and why I am so confident over this, and that is because of a fine example GTPlanet provides.

This website features some very critical individuals that have several issues with GT5. While some probably still have the game, I can imagine that others do not.

So what is might point? Even though people are unhappy with this, and displeased with that, they still come and here and discuss GT5.:)

Johnnypenso

I don't think it's the big of an exaggeration actually.

GT3 14.9 Million
GT4 11.6 Million
GT5 9 Million

It is, and those numbers you have provided prove nothing when it comes to establishing your point.

How many more years has GT4 and GT3 been out as compared to GT5?

How were GT4 and GT3 sales at two years compared to GT5?

You can bet your life that GT6 is going to cost a lot more dough to develop than GT3 did. With development and marketing costs rising exponentially and revenue falling, sooner or later they are going to intersect and that would be the end of the GT series as you know it.

Of course it is, and you can bet your life that millions of people will be purchasing it to the point of making 99% of all racing sim type game developers jealous.

If GT6 follows the trend and only sells 6-6.5 million copies , do you think there will be a GT7?

Please take a look at what I have placed in bold in your post. See it? Now, by all means list any racing sim type game that has sold more than those numbers above on the PS2, Xbox, X360, PS3 and the PC.:)
 
...snip...

It is, and those numbers you have provided prove nothing when it comes to establishing your point.

How many more years has GT4 and GT3 been out as compared to GT5?

How were GT4 and GT3 sales at two years compared to GT5?

Of course it is, and you can bet your life that millions of people will be purchasing it to the point of making 99% of all racing sim type game developers jealous.

Please take a look at what I have placed in bold in your post. See it? Now, by all means list any racing sim type game that has sold more than those numbers above on the PS2, Xbox, X360, PS3 and the PC.:)

Need for Speed, 100 Million+

But it's not a question of number of units sold. Need For Speed is far more profitable than GT5 will ever be simply because the development costs are much, much lower. Clearly, you are missing the economics of this. GT6 is not a 12 month, $5,000,000 proposition. GT5 was 5 years/$60,000,000. Wouldn't surprise me if GT6 was $100,000,000 in development costs alone. Add in marketing and production costs, ongoing support, wholesalers, retails, Sony and PD all getting a slice of the profits, then selling 5 million units doesn't look all that great.

Tying up $100Mill for 5 years better provide a guaranteed return. With continuously declining sales volume, the GT series is only one version away from being history if sales don't live up to expecations.
 
I disagree with you here. The vast majority of people going into purchasing GT5 (or any sim type game) know what they are buying. A missing feature or two won't detract them from a future purchase.
There will always be loyal fans that will purchase future titles, but I would not say its a vast majority. A missing feature is one thing, but changing a system that affects the entire game's play value is another. Most people buy games for the story or the challenge. I would say that the AI in previous titles were less refined yet more competitive, but since online play was introduced we have been given the opportunity to create our own challenges amongst friends. If the game is slowly getting watered down(most recently 2.10), then people will eventually become bored, games loose ratings, and buyers will be hesitant to purchase future titles. Interest might lead some to buy used or rent, but soon those options will be gone as well.
You might be asking yourself right now and why I am so confident over this, and that is because of a fine example GTPlanet provides. This website features some very critical individuals that have several issues with GT5. While some probably still have the game, I can imagine that others do not. So what is might point? Even though people are unhappy with this, and displeased with that, they still come and here and discuss GT5.:)
GTPlanet is just an outlet, an unofficial extension created for the sole purpose of discussing the topic of GT. I fail to see how this website relates to sales numbers? :confused:
How many more years has GT4 and GT3 been out as compared to GT5? How were GT4 and GT3 sales at two years compared to GT5?
Don't forget that online play was a huge factor in people purchasing GT5, and that the number of players online have decreased dramatically recently. Anyway, GT3&4 did pretty good for themselves considering they didn't have GT Academy and free DLC (in the form of cheaper extended editions) as an incentive to go out and buy. :cool:
Of course it is, and you can bet your life that millions of people will be purchasing it to the point of making 99% of all racing sim type game developers jealous.
Would you bet your life on it? :sly:
 
Johnnypenso

Need for Speed, 100 Million+

I believe you quickly answered that question without thinking it through sir. I asked which game , not series, has sold around 6-7 million copies on any of those systems. If I should have clarified better, I apologize.

Clearly, you are missing the economics of this.

No my friend, I am not. I just understand that GT5 made a substantial profit. I don't remember where I saw it, but someone here broke down how much profit the game has made. I do not have the time to dig it up, but it was done.

GT5 was 5 years/$60,000,000. Wouldn't surprise me if GT6 was $100,000,000 in development costs alone

Yes, GT5 cost that much, but at 9 million copies sold at lets say an average of $50.00 that is $450,000,000. You can even lower the price to $40.00 if you like and you are still looking at one quarter of a trillion dollars.

Please, by all means, do the math of what the profit is versus cost...

Tying up $100Mill for 5 years better provide a guaranteed return. With continuously declining sales volume, the GT series is only one version away from being history if sales don't live up to expecations.

A tad bit of sensationalism on your part wouldn't you say? Truth is, not many single games outside of Call of Duty and Grand Theft Auto can boast about over 9,000,000 in sales. Is the sky falling for other developers who can only manage 50% of those sales? What about 25%? Gasp!!

Surely you must understand that.


There will always be loyal fans that will purchase future titles, but I would not say its a vast majority.

Your speculation versus my speculation here, and since neither of us have anything to fall back on other then GT5's 9 million copies sold (considering this feat was accomplished in two years), I stand by my original statement.

The vast majority of those who purchased the Gran Turismo series since day one have remained faithful to the series.

GTPlanet is just an outlet, an unofficial extension created for the sole purpose of discussing the topic of GT. I fail to see how this website relates to sales numbers?

It is simple really. People such as yourself are unhappy with certain things in or missing from GT5. Yet, people still come here to talk about it. For further convincing, look at your activity in this thread. You don't like it, yet you keep coming back and discussing the 2.10 changes. If GT5 was a fisherman, there would be plenty of us with hooks in our mouths.

In fact, I have a few scars from GTPlanet hooks myself lately.

Don't forget that online play was a huge factor in people purchasing GT5, and that the number of players online have decreased dramatically recently.

Expected for a game that is two years old as this is nothing new in a generation that features yearly releases of franchises. Man, there is so many great games to enjoy out there!

Anyway, GT3&4 did pretty good for themselves considering they didn't have GT Academy and free DLC (in the form of cheaper extended editions) as an incentive to go out and buy.

Indeed they did, and they also didn't have to face the competition of great games out there as alternatives to Gran Turismo. I am pretty excited about Project Cars, personally.

Would you bet your life on it?

Not harldy. Believe you me, if my life was at risk over a video game, I have some serious issues in my corner of the world. LOL:dopey:
 
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Don't forget these 'sold' figures are to retailers, not at the register to the consumer and GT5 has been "re-released" at least 3 times by now. Still, 9mil is very impressive.
That said, GT is not going anywhere. I just hope we never see a Prologue 'game' ever again. I also hope we no longer see a standard x premium split in a full release game, regardless of genre or platform.

To be on topic, I know the PP adjustment has caused some issues lately reading this thread alone. I don't like that PP was altered but personally to me it isn't all that bad. Granted, I rarely play online which seems to be where most are complaining about.
 
To be on topic, I know the PP adjustment has caused some issues lately reading this thread alone. I don't like that PP was altered but personally to me it isn't all that bad. Granted, I rarely play online which seems to be where most are complaining about.

Ahh, if only we could rent games via the Playstation Store. What a revolution that would be? But yeah, we were straying for a minute there.

The pp change is pretty much an online/multiplayer issue. It's too much trouble to host any fair race now. I do believe that 2.10 put a hurting on the GT community more than it's place in the market though. Oh, btw Max, (paragraph -spacing - single) Help us out for those who have to scroll through mobile browsers, eh?
 
I've been trying to make the best of a bad patch by running the "new" Silvias, Challengers, Jaguars etc. online. This has been fun for a while but it's already getting a bit old. I hate HP/weight restrictions because it's a pain in the a**. Anyway, again there are only a few likely winners using those restrictions.

The way I see it, the PP system was never perfect, but it's a lot worse now. All the competitive cars (up to around 550+PP, depending on tires) are of the same type - FRs, typically heavy ones. And the lone MR, the 3400S.

Pre-2.10, there was probably about a 10-15 second spread between most cars at a given PP on the Nurb. There's also happens to be a 10-15 second spread between "average" online players like myself and the fastest drivers. The better a driver you are, the more ambitious your car choice could be; the more impressive your win.

Unfortunately now there's more like a 20-30 second spread between cars, and a very small, very similar group of them are 10+ seconds better than everything else. This makes the old self-handicap method too unfair now, not nearly as many cars can keep up even with a better driver.

Simply put, there's less choice for online racing. Any way you look at it, the PP changes are for the worse.

There are people (self included) enjoying the 2.10 patch for the different cars, but I think this is more an indicator of the lack of rules and options in online lobbies. PP & power & weight restrictions combined could give us similar racing to what we've got now (along with more varieties of fairly-matched racing) if they reverted back to the 2.09 PP scale.
 
PP & power & weight restrictions combined could give us similar racing to what we've got now (along with more varieties of fairly-matched racing) if they reverted back to the 2.09 PP scale.

Yep. I agree. Simply limiting HP and weight hasn't worked either. I've tried those rooms and there's still the same kind of imbalances. A PP limit and a weight and/or HP limit would be great.

Fact of the matter is the the Ring variants and other high speed tracks are the most played online. At the ring in particular, the 500pp cars that dominate now lap as fast as the 600pp cars. That isn't the spirit of what the pp system is meant to do, which is to allow us to determine which cars should be competitive with each other.
 
Heres a build sheet that I mad from the information of a 430 CUP Car.
430CUPCARBuildSheetF74_zps95e429c0.png
Some of you may have ran against me while I was running this Red 430 CUP Car on the Nurburgring GP/D track. Which I placed second in.

To get the whole scoop follow link.
 
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Heres a build sheet that I mad from the information of a 430 CUP Car.
430CUPCARBuildSheetF74_zps95e429c0.png
Some of you may have ran against me while I was running this Red 430 CUP Car on the Nurburgring GP/D track. Which I placed second in.

To get the whole scoop follow link.

Aparently, after the next maintenence, 19th February, the PP system is going back to how it was with the patch 2.09.
It seems that sheet is going to be useless...
 
I don't think it's the big of an exaggeration actually.

GT3 14.9 Million
GT4 11.6 Million
GT5 9 Million
Check this:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7166864#post7166864

Also look at the quoted nick and compare the old numbers with the actual. Makes the drama even more funny if you ask me.

GT5 is the best selling PS3 exclusive game. It's a very important name for the brand Playstation, in and out of the console world. Even if GT6 would be given for free with each launch console it would be a good investment for Sony.
 
Aparently, after the next maintenence, 19th February, the PP system is going back to how it was with the patch 2.09.
It seems that sheet is going to be useless...

How do you know this for certain?
 
Aparently, after the next maintenence, 19th February, the PP system is going back to how it was with the patch 2.09.
It seems that sheet is going to be useless...

If we do get a update, and IF the system does go back to the per-form the numbers shouldn't change by much. Maybe by one up or down like it has done with this update.
 
If we do get a update, and IF the system does go back to the per-form the numbers shouldn't change by much. Maybe by one up or down like it has done with this update.
Cue the music for the "Twilight Zone".:crazy::lol:
 
If we do get a update, and IF the system does go back to the per-form the numbers shouldn't change by much. Maybe by one up or down like it has done with this update.

I'm certain you're doing this on purpose now.
 
I’m not following you lad.

I've been reading some of the post again and I've been seeing pattern. Most of the cars people are speaking of are large displacement cars, cars know to produces great amounts of power when build up, cars that perform well for that decade or year. Yes people are still scrambling to find that right car for every locked pp number they like to run. Or they’re tuning cars based on track, high HP for the long straight track, mid range power cars for the balanced tracks or still trying to find that right car to cover the board. I see it in the open lobbies as well the private lobbies, everyone is trying to find the car to beat that car or the runners or the cheat cars as some call them.

The thing that is happening now is everyone is driving the same runner’s cheaters cars just to compete. Yes it’s all fine and good if all in it for is to see your name on top as well to see your win comment. Yes there are the few that run these cars just to race to see who the better driver for that race is. Who the driver or drivers that can control one of these runner or cheater cars, any of us could though can we be fast. Some yes some no but at the end of the day it all came down to what? The driver no it really came down to the car, because that driver had the runner car or the cheater car. That driver piloted that slow car though the turn but when it got into the higher rpm range it was a beast, a beast where, in a straight line. Not a beast coming out of a turn, putting power down through the turn. It all was done going in a straight line.

Going fast in a straight line all fine and good though the trouble is still the runaway cars that people are speaking of, some of the cars where runaway car before and are even more so now. When I look at these cars and see how fast they run away I think to myself “Bloody hell LOL the system is broken in away but not that bad” Yes there are some cars that should perform as well as they do and some should. But when I see cars from different decades that are high displacement, a high displacement car of a newer year; or a Japanese car that I know for that year it was a monster of a tuner car. I know some others are also taking this in mind with this new pp system. Some are just running stock cars in all to keep the runners from showing.

Everyone here has their say on the matter, I myself the more. For this you've labeled me as Troll, Nut Job whatever, even said I’m in my own universe. (Which is the Solar System which is in the Milky Way Galaxy) For looking at the pp system the way I do, and that the pp system is fully broken. That’s your opinion and thoughts. My opinion and thought are that the system isn't broken it’s just being looked in the wrong manner. Here you go again thinking of what to say about me, though has any one besides myself pointed out the year, decade or class of the cars that are running away. Did you look at the size of the motor? (Yes) or maybe, what about the performance of that car for that year? What class does that car belong in? A number of things.

Looking at the cars pp across the whole board is no longer going to work. Don’t believe me take a look at the lobbies, write down the name of the cars your seeing in the top three spots do research on those cars. See what you find, you’ll be surprised.
 
I imagine you were called a troll because of what Steph and I quoted, you claiming that the numbers didn't change by much, only "one up or down" when clearly that wasn't the case, many cars shifted by a large number and will do again if they switch it back.
 
@Zuel
Read through the following thread
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=269088

Build Johnnypenso's S2000 LM and my Altezza TC as per the tunes we provided for the 500PP class in that event. Test the tunes as they are listed on Spa or any other track. Then look at the cars current PP after V2.10 and tell us how the adjusted PP makes any logical sense. These are smaller displacement cars of the same era that are very evenly matched in handling and speed. Johnnypenso created a masterpiece of a tune there and mine was pretty good as well but now they can't even compete at the same PP due to V2.10.

In the past you've demanded testing and proof for how the PP is messed up currently, well there it is in black and white. That's just one example and far from the exception.

If you can't understand the simple facts with proof then you really are dealing with a different game than the rest of us.:banghead:
 
Yes I do agree with you that there was a major shift in the car when the new pp system was installed. With the current building methods to the motor I can see why there is such a major shift. Though with my build method of the motor I didn't see that much of a shift only one number up or down as I said before. I’m going to ask again to take a step back, really step back take a look at all the cars that you build. Take a look at the motors, the majority if not all will have a stage three motor modifications, super charger or turbo also installed. Which is all fine and good, keep that in mind. Now look at the year or decade, (What type of performance goals did companies achieve for that year) what displacement is the motor, which class is the car placed in, drive train type.

With all those areas in mind take a look at their real world counterparts. I know this is just a game just bear with me. As we all know cars get better as they get newer, some get faster some handle better or both though at the end they are graded on performance. Two years down the line cars have gotten lighter more nimble using less or more power though still fast, performance graded. Take the three fastest cars of any drive train from two years ago; take three of the fastest cars of any drive train from the year that you’re in. Pending on the year that you chose you’ll have a 45% of all the cars from the newer year will outperform the older cars. Now take these same cars tune the motors to the max do that same test which cars will outperform. Pending on the drive train 99.9% of the time the best performing car will be a front engine rear wheel drive car of any year. Now pending on the year and the displacement regulations that were set for that year that car will be the best performing due to its straight line speed. (Like Smokes Gold Supra)

If we do happen to get an update after the 29th to fix the pp system, I really don’t think we’ll see a major shift in the cars. I truly believe some car will be fixed but not in the manner you all are thinking. Yes it may get somewhere close though you we all will see the same cars running away.
 
@XDesperado67

I know of the thread already, and you know the one thing those entire cars have in common. They all have been modified with a motor upgrade and de-tuning or none at all pending on pp. Yes those test numbers are sound but on an overly build motor then de-tuned to class.

If you remember the first time GT5 came out what did everyone do? Max the crap out of their cars, couldn't control them. Asked for the power limiter back, de-tuning starts making the cars more controllable but still have one thing in common. The stage 3 motor will always be the sought after motor due to the high torque at a de-tuned rate. People got faster with all types of drive trains, things were fine for two years. Racing was fine cars were balanced or so thought so. 2.10 update comes out totally shifts the whole pp scale, all type of cars fall and rise.

People got mad because they lost what they had. Now think back to the first live hands on test that GT Planet got with GT5. What was the number one thing everyone demanded from GT5? Realism Now that we may have you want to complain.

(Addition)
Or as close as they can get....
 
@Zuel obviously you haven't looked at the thread and tunes I indicated.
Both cars are race cars and neither has engine tuning.
Both cars used almost identical power limiter to reach 500PP with the aero settings they used (94.6% & 94.8%) which is far from being extreme.

Obviously your not interested in anything that doesn't meet your personal expectations or doesn't fit with your ideas.
 
Yes I do agree with you that there was a major shift in the car when the new pp system was installed. With the current building methods to the motor I can see why there is such a major shift. Though with my build method of the motor I didn't see that much of a shift only one number up or down as I said before.

You sound a bit like someone saying they don't notice the rise in fuel prices because they always fill up their car for a tenner.

All you do is explain the plain obvious and are somehow under the illusion you have discovered something we all don't get or don't want to get.
I've given you a chance to explain as I've read all your posts in this thread (as you could've been onto something which you aren't by the way).

You claim the system is fine due to your ability to build competitive cars within a certain PP number without maxing them out.
Sorry to be blunt but duh! That was already possible before this update and again has nothing to do with the PP-shuffle we've seen.
You go on about cheater cars and driver ability versus the car's ability but that's exactly what the PP system is there for to try and even out as much as possible (and which currently is more unbalanced than ever).
That has nothing to do with maxing out and powerlimiting the car afterwards (as the PP system should take that automatically into account ideally) but everything with picking the right car for the right track and setting it up properly.

The powerlimiter has flaws as it gives advantages it perhaps shouldn't, that's the thing then that needs sorting out, not blaming people for using parts the game offers.
The PP system should be seen as an indicator of performance within the car's category or class, meaning a 500PP classic muscle car should be made competitive against another 500PP classic muscle car and not expect to be competitive against a 500PP Elise on a twisty track (which sometimes is what happens now strangely enough).
That you are able with your superior tuning skills to create a 500PP classic muscle car without fitting all upgrades available has nothing to do with this update however.
 
@Zuel
Read through the following thread
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=269088

Build Johnnypenso's S2000 LM and my Altezza TC as per the tunes we provided for the 500PP class in that event. . Johnnypenso created a masterpiece of a tune there and mine was pretty good as well but now they can't even compete at the same PP due to V2.10.

Thanks Des:)

I’m not following you lad.

I've been reading some of the post again and I've been seeing pattern. ...snip...The thing that is happening now is everyone is driving the same runner’s cheaters cars just to compete....snip... But when I see cars from different decades that are high displacement, a high displacement car of a newer year; or a Japanese car that I know for that year it was a monster of a tuner car.
....snip..... For this you've labeled me as Troll, Nut Job whatever, even said I’m in my own universe. (Which is the Solar System which is in the Milky Way Galaxy) For looking at the pp system the way I do, and that the pp system is fully broken.


....snip...With all those areas in mind take a look at their real world counterparts. I know this is just a game just bear with me.
...snip... Pending on the year that you chose you’ll have a 45% of all the cars from the newer year will outperform the older cars.....snip...(Like Smokes Gold Supra)

...snip... Yes those test numbers are sound but on an overly build motor then de-tuned to class....snip...
People got mad because they lost what they had. Now think back to the first live hands on test that GT Planet got with GT5. What was the number one thing everyone demanded from GT5? Realism Now that we may have you want to complain.

(Addition)
Or as close as they can get....

You sound a bit like someone saying they don't notice the rise in fuel prices because they always fill up their car for a tenner.
All you do is explain the plain obvious and are somehow under the illusion you have discovered something we all don't get or don't want to get.
You claim the system is fine due to your ability to build competitive cars within a certain PP number without maxing them out.
Sorry to be blunt but duh! That was already possible before this update and again has nothing to do with the PP-shuffle we've seen.
...snip...

Zuel, if your spaceship ever makes it to this part of the galaxy, stop by for a :cheers:
 
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