We are very hard on PoDi

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo 6' started by Zlork, Sep 24, 2013.

  1. Zlork

    Zlork

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    My english isn't perfect. For a long post, I prefer write in french.
    I'm sorry in advance, I invite to use google translation to understand.

    I create a new thread, I avoid off topic.

    Great. Maybe, I missed something in my text but the most important is there.
    It must be a first post in another language on GTPlanet, I hope you can understand :)

    Now, we must be patient for next news.
     
  2. Chippy569

    Chippy569

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    I've translated it for you:

     
  3. amar212

    amar212 Premium

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    Thank you for this, but please present us with some context?

    Have you conducted an interview with Kazunori Yamauchi? If yes, where and when, thank you for the details :tup:

    Also, if I understand well, the sound has always been problematic because of the RAM? Good, then I was right for the whole time and it is important piece of the puzzle. Thank you once more for getting this clarification.

    So, to sum this up:

    - PD is deservingly proud for managing to implement dynamic tesselation on PS3
    - Youtube sounds are in fact different from actual life-sounds
    - Sound processing takes lots of RAM from PS3 (for those who don't know, PS3 does not have separate sound-processor, it is the Cell GPU that does almost everything, from graphics to audio and it is pretty much choked when doing 7.1 surround for instance, op.a.) so sounds have to be compressed
    - PS4 will offer much more flexibility in the sounds area
    - Players without internet should not worry about "Day 1 patch" - they will get all content
    - 12 % increase of the resolution compared to GT5, GT6 will be 1440x1080p
    - Better lighting
    - Suppression of pixelated shadows (alpha maps)
    - Clean smoke
    - More animations on the track
    - No tearing
    - Refined textures
    - Top Anti-aliasing

    Good questions, even better answers, thank you for this.
     
  4. Zlork

    Zlork

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    :)

    My friend (journalist) visited PoDi after TGS 2010. He provided some answers on how PoDi work.

    Yes, sound has always been problematic because of the RAM, I confirm.

    And, I would like to clarify about day one patch : in the future, there will probably new things to come via patches, I especially wanted to say that players without internet will have content (new physic, 1200+ cars, 37 tracks, customization, game mode, etc). They will a "finished game", they will not same feeling as when GT5 is release :tup:
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2013
  5. avens

    avens

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    First of all customers can and do judge what they are buying based on if they like the product or not in a quite cold way. Feelings, understanding, reasons, excuses and "being too hard on the company" just don't exist in the business and real world. A product is praised if it is objectively good, not if it is good for the circumstances.
    Now, I think the GT playerbase is quite justified on being critical of PD considering they have released not one finished main title in 10 years and counting (GT5 wasn't GT6 won't be) and in some aspects they are 10 to 15 years behind, while there is none in which they beat the competition.

    Secondly, the most recent interview dealt with some points: lack of content (or speed rather) and quality issues are because PD kept the team purposely small and it is the same staff from 1997.
    In this genre manpower and updated knowledge matter a lot. How can PD compete with the current standard if they are understaffed and most probably under qualified, both because of a PD decision? That's not precisely praise-worthy and they created the circumstances themselves, therefore the small size team is not an acceptable justification of bad and non existent work.

    Thirdly, particularly about sounds on the PS3, other games have achieved better sounding cars yet don't blame it on the console on every single interview. Other games of other genres are way more complex than this one therefore most probably more RAM demanding.

    As a fourth point, the OP doesn't explain all the 'broken promises' and shortcomings we saw in GT5 and now in GT6, nor justify them. Today alone there were three announced: same non-working clutch as GT5, track creator size is 4% of what was said (if not less) and the track creator itself maybe won't make it to release date.

    Lastly, what the OP implies is GT7 (or a re-release of GT6) on the PS4 is going to blow our hats away, right? I've heard that line before and consider the quality and quantity standard increases every year, both in which PD is considerably behind the competition and I don't see how come they are going to overcome time if the staff is way too small and is way too outdated. And BTW in gaming there is no such a thing as future proof work.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2013
  6. First of all, this post came sooner than I expected when you first mentioned it yesterday. Secondly, Very NICE!

    It's unfortunate that a lot of other people on here don't expect that simply based on the last few days. We'll just have to wait and see what happens.
     
  7. dr_slump

    dr_slump Premium

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    Ehh could you change the title?
     
  8. ITCC_Andrew

    ITCC_Andrew (Banned)

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    :lol: Pretty much this.


    It's not an excuse to post in French, no matter how much I'd enjoy it.



    Has anyone validated the translation, or shall I?
     
  9. TokoTurismo

    TokoTurismo

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    Awesome! :D
     
  10. MGTurismo

    MGTurismo

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    I thought I'd never see the day a post on GTPlanet would show some sympathy towards Polyphony Digital. Thank you for this.
     
  11. Ameer67

    Ameer67 Premium

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    Very nice post, Zlork. And thank you Chippy for the translation.
     
  12. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    Thanks for the input Zlork! :tup:

    Nice comments about the sounds; I also thought RAM was an issue, and that coding complexity is holding the new sounds back.

    Bit worried about the "no tearing" thing though; I'll take tearing over v-sync stutter in an action game any day.
     
  13. Cosbuster

    Cosbuster

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    If anything, people should be harsher to them and not just in forum posts that don't do much but actual sales to maybe get the message across. There's just no excuse for releasing unfinished products like GT5 or the "pay for a beta and we might update it later" they seem to be going for GT6 with the amount of sales they are making and the amount of time they take.

    "But it's a small team". Well, either expand it to have a chance to come close to your goals or aim lower. You can't both keep a small team and do all the stuff you want to as it has become evident. Going all over the place with unfinished features and taking ages while still under-delivering isn't really helping the final product. Sometimes less is more, much more.
     
  14. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    Ultimately, that's their decision to make. If you think the result is unsatisfactory, you have your own decisions to make. Some people like the feel of a product made a certain way, I doubt that games are any different.
     
  15. Cosbuster

    Cosbuster

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    Well, of course it's their decision although I can't help but feel that very often it's hype and ignorance about the product rather than actually making a proper decision.
     
  16. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    That would still constitute your decision, to breathe the hype or skirt around it. Consumerism means something very different on either side of the transaction :)
     
  17. McLOVIN5489

    McLOVIN5489

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    Well put.....if your last 2 posts were worded any other way, it would have been complaints from the heavens, lol... I've recieved enough info to make my "decision" and I'm excited!
     
  18. georgetigra

    georgetigra

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    :tup::tup::tup::tup:
    this i want to write from a long time ago!!
    but my English is bad.... :nervous:
    we are hard with PD..
    is like take the Great GTA V and talk "hard" about gravel textures or everything ....
    with GT5 we have a lot of new features and continue to cry about everything..
    many people say about GT5.5 before the release..
    calm down people we have a great game here..
    we have features who dont have other games and the way we have it is all most excellent.. :nervous:
     
  19. Zlork

    Zlork

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    Once again, we can judge. In judging, we can make improve Gran Turismo :tup:
    But, we must also keep feet on the earth. Each console has limits and PoDi aren't robots.

    So, if Gran Turismo 5/6 isn't finished then no game is.

    Today, the development has changed, we must accept. And I'm afraid for next-gen :indiff:
    For example : Forza 5, we will download a piece of content if we want to finish the game + patches.

    You're wrong.

    Some developers who worked on the first episode are still there but it isn't the same team. They engaged many employees since 97. If I remember correctly, it was less 100 to develop Gran Turismo 1-4. Besides, I checked something. They are now 150 and opened a studio in Fukuoka. Once again, Sony has not unlimited resources.

    As for your last phrase. I'm sorry but it is an acceptable justification.
    They must find compromise to satisfy a majority players. Don't be egoist, please.

    :sick:

    Computer is my domain. I have already explained, I quote Amar :

    Also :

    This is not the case for other studios. They capture just a sound, near engine and exhaust. This sound isn't 7.1 surround, so but it's classic for TV format.

    About GT6.

    What broken promises ?

    Sound ? It is just a matter of time and programming.
    " I’m not sure if it is actually going to make it into GT6 in time yet" > https://www.gtplanet.net/gran-turismo-6-engine-sounds/
    And to be honest, I would not be surprised if PoDi kept new sounds for GT7. Wait and see.

    Size of course maker tracks ? Seriously, 100x100 isn't unthinkable. Kaz was wrong, it is human. Then official site displays "several tens".

    Damage ? Kaz confessed that it will be same.

    I think PoDi are progress very well in communication. It's not archaic as before, there concrete things. The problem is we are too impatient, we all have it now... Calm down.

    The PS4 is more powerful and easier to use, PoDi will have fun.
     
  20. Samus

    Samus

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    The RAM excuse keeps popping up again and again and still the people doing so can't answer this simple question:

    If RAM is the main, underlying issue for poor sounds why do some cars sound very good? Are they accessing some magic RAM?

    No, the answer is most of the sound problems stem from the samples and how they're used. If you use a V8 sound for a V12 it's never going to sound right even if you have 256GB of RAM to store the high resolution sample.
     
  21. RedBaron

    RedBaron

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    Engine sounds have problems with incorrect samples, it's like eating from eintopf. They are mixing V8, I4, V10, V12 sounds from different RPM's and mixing them together. When there are correct samples used, car is sounding at least decent (F458 Italia, V12 Vantage, Zonda 7.3).
     
  22. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    Obviously the misattribution is a major issue, but when your sampling scheme is the same on PS3 as it was on PS1, then you're clearly compensating for something. It isn't just about individual samples, but the whole scheme.

    I'm surprised to see you say that some cars sound "very good" though. I'd say some samples sound good in certain situations, but cars overall still have a lack of detail. Detail is data, aaand data need somewhere to live.
     
  23. MXH

    MXH Premium

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    Noone asked them either, really. If they'd the sense to start fresh with GT5 - creating an interesting and diverse car list from the very beggining - rather than bringing old assets into the game and (in my opinion) dragging it down as a result of it, it would've been perfectly understandable. It is a decision that is entirely on PD.

    Since I doubt that budget is actually a huge issue, or an issue at all, how many people they have on their staff is once again - on them.
     
  24. Samus

    Samus

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    This is true and I'm not for one second suggesting RAM isn't an issue, it obviously is, my point was that it's not the major issue for a lot of the cars that sound bad. "Very good", "good" or whatever you want to call them, some cars are pretty decent but when you have something like the current Z4 GT3 sample, RAM usage is the least of the issues with that one. I know that might not be final but just making the point. The first sample used on the Honda Weider is another example. The final, third sample is far from perfect but it at least sounds reasonable, you can live with it.
     
  25. Imari

    Imari

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    In PDs case, having a small team is not an acceptable justification for substandard results.


    They had one of the largest budgets in gaming at the time for GT5. I don't think it's an unreasonable assumption that the money exists to hire more team members, if they wished to. It is an assumption however, and you may debate it if you wish.

    Kaz has mentioned on several occasions that he prefers to keep the team small, for reasons which are not clearly explained. Whatever they are, PD is a game development studio so presumably those reasons are intended to help PD produce a better game.

    If PD isn't producing a better game, then whatever Kaz/PDs reasoning is for keeping the team small is, it isn't working. They should be increasing the team size.


    Short version: If your substandard results are caused by small team size, and you have the means to increase your team size but do not, your substandard results are directly caused by your decision.

    You have chosen to make a worse game than you could have. That is not acceptable in any field.
     
  26. hehe HEEEE

    Substandard? Damn are people's POV's widely different. If they told us nothing about GT6 until the final month it released, which includes the leaks, I'm 99% sure that the complaints wouldn't be so annoying. What do you think meant Kaz by saying that updates are going to be the "norm" in the future for GT with the digital age already coming in full spring?

    It's not like I'm wagging my finger and telling him to make complete games from now on. There are always things to add and there are ALWAYS things that don't make the cut. NOW, they can finally change and improve and add "things" after the game releases.
     
  27. Samus

    Samus

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    Is Kaz not the same man who said all of the updates for GT5 made it a bit of a muddled up mess, backend code wise? Yet here they are, planning to do it again.
     
  28. Zlork

    Zlork

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    It is an acceptable justification in the context.

    Many times, Kaz has admitted to wanting hire youngs developers in Fukuoka (https://www.gtplanet.net/polyphony-digital-to-continue-expansion-in-fukuoka-japan/) What Kaz doesn't want is the outsourcing. This is not the same thing ! And personally, I'm ok with this idea.

    After, Kaz decides nothing alone, there is Sony behind him. And I don't know how Sony manages its studios to be honest.

    Reminder : since GT4, effective went from 100+ to 150+
     
  29. Whitestar

    Whitestar Premium

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    That pretty much applies to every game in the history of games. There's no such thing as a perfect game. They are what they are. :)
     
  30. MXH

    MXH Premium

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    Considering how development time went through the roofs this generation and how other developers have acted during the same time regarding manpower, PD's efforts pale in comparison.