What will make or break your decision to buy/play GT7?

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by DigoARA, Sep 22, 2014.

  1. Harsk100


  2. Legro


    PS4 breaks it. No seriously, after Forza Motorsport 5 and Forza Horizon 2 I've decided to buy Xbox ONE instead of Playstation 4 when I buy my next console. But when I have gained enough money for having PS4 too, I'll probably buy GT7 even if it has less features and ¨Standards¨.
    swsc73, Imari and Fat Tyre like this.
  3. Tenacious D

    Tenacious D Premium

    I'm not sure what that "bugged software wildly beyond target release windows" is. So far, very few release windows have been offered, other than Zahara which really isn't that buggy, at least offline. The cars aren't buggy. I think this is the usual GT Planet drama.

    As for being only good for hotlapping and time trials, evidently a whole gob of people online disagree with that statement. Those of us still playing offline disagree, and from the activity in the GT6 section in the various boards, it's looking like more than a handful.

    Too many people here impose their views on the universe at large and assume they're right. People quit playing because there's no endurance racing, or because the car sounds make them harf, or because the Standard cars injure their eyes, or because the bots let them win no matter what, or because there's no Course Maker yet or whatever peeve they pet. And of course everyone feels the same way, right? Stands to reason.

    Except that apparently the main reasons that people have wandered off from playing GT6 are because it's almost a year old now, and they hunger for a next gen game, or simply a new game. The people who play a game for 11 months are a dedicated few. I'll admit that GT6 is simply too small to have that kind of legs. A good Arcade Mode like GT5 had, with the Course Maker, would be kind of like a baby Event Maker and give us a lot to do. A solid online community, which at this stage is improving some, would too, but I'm just not that into hunting down a good room, so when I race, I gravitate to the same old offline I-A races I've done for months, and there's a nice variety. But I've grown addicted to Deus Ex after seeing my autocrossing relative playing it, so I do that through the week and save GT6 for the weekends when I have more me time. I could play my other racers, but I don't, and I'll get to that in a sec.

    Sure, from what I can tell most of us want GT6 to be better. But as for being a bad racer, there's quite a division on how accurate that is.

    I think you're forgetting how games have gone in the optical disc based gaming age, either console or PC. Late in a system's lifecycle without fail, developers will push the hardware as far as it can go, and games will demand more resources than what's available, and there will be horrendous slowdown, extensive textures will rob memory and glitch - and that's what shadows are, and other framing issues. Devil May Cry 3 is a great example of this, where a developer insisted on extra octane everywhere, and certain levels flat out crawled in points. GT5 was a third gen game, what you usually see when a system is in its swansong year. And of course, GT6 is three years older. PD tore open the game engine and rebuilt it, but they evidently couldn't bring themselves to cut back anything, which I agree with the critics they really should have done. Even the resolution is higher! Oh well.

    And those "other games" with all their better features, once again there is quite a disagreement on all of that. Other than Forza, every other racer is about one-tenth the game in scope, and the developers of those games focus their resources differently. The A.I. in them is about as criticized by their fans, especially Froza and GRID, which are characterized as a demolition derby by a few on other forums. And GRID only flies off the shelves so workers can dust them. Every other racer has great A.I., except everyone fights over which game that is. Sounds, same deal. Other racers have very few distinct types on track at once, and Forza shortsheets a lot to highlight basically one car, the one the camera is focused on. But nobody wants to hear that.

    Hey, there are other great racing games out there. If you guys like them, awesome. If you prefer them, cool. But none of you are any more valid judge of what perfection is than anyone else. Preference is a highly individual thing.

    And I know what I'm going to say causes conniptions with some here, but a whole gob of racers around the world prefer Gran Turismo, for whatever reason. Some of them are pretty hardcore racing fans. Some of them are gaming journalists. Some of them are real life racers, and not just the graduates of GT Academy. I'm one of them. I really want in a racer what GT has, and since the closest competitor, Forzxa, doesn't have it, I presently clutch a wheel controller hooked up to GT6. Did some racing yesterday in my hopped up sports cars against actual racing machines, and... mostly lost. But those were fun losses. I have a bunch of racers I could play, but losing in them isn't as fun. Their cars don't feel like my cars because they aren't my cars, except in Forza, and I just don't much care for racing in Forza. Race car creating, sure! But not racing.

    I want GT7 to get back to the roots of Gran Turismo too, though I want those roots to sprout another trunk. I want it to use that FIA license to develop into some real world league racing, or real world-ish. I would prefer Kaz and the team focus on the essentials of racing again, more than other weird experiments like lunar time trials, or making singular vehicles like the WWII German war wagons. I'm not too sure we need anymore Vision cars either.

    But some of that is what makes Gran Turismo unique, iconic. If we get some of that again, which isn't unlikely, I'll play it. It may be cute, or silly, or dumb, but I'll do it, because it's there, and they took the time to put it there. Just please, no cops n robbers or car soccer! :lol:

    Lawndart, himself not just a real life racer but game developer, insists that even as frooky as Gran Turismo is, there's something right about the feel and essence of pushing a car around a track, and as vexed as I am of endless replay cams shot from below the waist, I still watch them. Because there's just something cool about reliving that race and its particular moments.

    This is why we play Gran Turismo, and prefer Gran Turismo, and is why we can hardly wait for GT7.
    ItsHim, no1pal and Animera like this.
  4. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

    You do realize you just did exactly that right?
    And you know this how?

    Apparently this wasn't the case for GT1-5.

    If nobody wants to hear it, why do you keep repeating it?

    Sound awfully like trying to impose your narrow view of Gran Turismo on the world. :lol:
  5. RandomCarGuy17


    United States
    Nothing will make me break my decision to buy GT7. I've been playing the series all the way from the start and I don't feel like quitting. I figure that the way PD is these days is probably going to mean the end of the series coming anyway; so I think I'll just try to make the best of GT while the series is still around.
    Cobra_GT500 and GranTurismo guy like this.
  6. Zuku


    United States
    Ummmmmm.......No to the bold

    Look I'm not looking for the A.I to be GOD AWFUL HARD just good enough so that when I race for 1 lap - 50 laps I actually either here comes the list

    A. Get Beaten because I crashed and burned/sucked horribly
    B. Have to Fight to Win
    C. Win only by a slim margin
    D. Win, but only because I was that good.
    E. Not follow a pre-determined racing line

    That's all Gran Turismo I'm lapping people without trying, and right now Codemasters games are doing exactly as I've asked.

    Plus they give me the added fear that even if I do get a lead I can't just bounce off the wall, and go back to normal way of continuing to lap my opponent.

    Let's see what else.

    No one is calling these other racing games perfect cause they aren't by any stretch that, but one game that does claim the title "REAL DRIVING SIMULATOR"..............yyyeeeeeeaaahhhh.

    Last thing

    They prefer it cause of this thing called a reputation ever wonder why people like certain car brands and what not they've built a reputation over many years. Like my pops he loved F-150 why brand reputation, but once you tarnish that rep BOOM! it's over, and GT has technically done that hence the reason a good 7.5 million sales are missing compared to 10 mil that GT5 sold.

    Another thing I'm admitting to this myself when I got GT4 it was all about that magical number of cars hearing the number 700 compared to 150 you know that's a lot. Hearing that it went up from 700 to over 1000(GT5) that will also get you. Because it sure got me, but once the number stops mattering, and you look at the game for what it is find out that you barely use the cars reality starts to set in.

    Then when you mess around and play another game like Codemasters/Forza/Assetto Corsa(however you spell it), and come back to GT and that number matters no more.

    That's why I'm not even caring about the updates GT6 receives anymore playing the first Grid just about everything in it is better than GT6, or at least the things that matter.

    At the end of the day we talking about Physics for GT6 being it's high point playing Codemasters games I think about the physics, but don't have time to because fighting for that #1 spot.
    raven214, mr_serious and Fat Tyre like this.
  7. Tappajakoala


    I bought Playstation 4 in July.
    Dark clouds are lurking and telling my reasonable new Fanatech CSR wheelset might not work at all with PS4 due Sony's deal with Thrustmaster. I have no intentions to invest few hundreds euros on new wheelset, no.

    PS4 has lot of potential with frame rate demanding racing games, but if option is default controller or brand new wheelset, I will not be buying driving games for PS4.

    My first touch into Gran Turismo games were the third one, I liked very much since I was also quite new into PS2 console too. Later on I got copies of Gran Turismo 1 and 2 but after intros they did look so ugly (as PS1 games) I never went back to them (I know I went bit far with some of you GT-fanatics with this insult, I'm sorry).

    GT 4 was massive upgrade from GT3 and it supported 900 degree Logitech's wheel I bought.

    Then came PS3 and GT5Prologue. I was bit excited about high definition performance, dashboards and such. One thing begun to annoy me was sounds. They reminded me about housecleaning when I turn vacuum cleaner one. Some of cars had good sounds, but 90% of car sounds were from vacuum cleaners.

    I did look forward GT5, but it somehow let me down. It was not improvement GT5prologue made us to wish. Majority of cars were ported from ps2 and some even ps1. And they even looked out so. From relatively big range of cars only couple hundreds of them had detailed dashboards. Sound issues annoyed me even more.

    GT6 was announced and I first time I did doubt I will not be getting this game at release, but good offer did turn my head. Game itself was somehow improvement of GT5, but also downgrade from GT5. 24h endurances has come 24 minutes endurance. What a joke! Standard cars were still in though their outlook was improved. Dashboards were missing from those still. If car game has dashboard, I will use it. In GT5-GT6 I avoid driving cars which has no dashboards. Sounds are still horrible, even more worse than in GT5.

    As summary. I see Gran Turismo has difficulties to evolve. Version after version they repeat same mistakes and improve things which doesn't matter prety much anything. Game studi PolyPhony keeps being sorry about sounds, but no improvements are made. Nowadays it looks out their main taks is to run and fund global GT Academies with real cars. Game itself has become a side product.

    I try to avoid car bias agruments, but this huge Nissan fetish is also annoying me. Even great deal of GT6 has GT-Rs by Nissan. Then there's these special Nürburgring GT-Rs by Kaz as only difference is number sticker on their side.
    I'm disappointed and feeling let down.

    If PolyPhony won't turn their ship course to fresh waters, they will hit rocks sooner or later. 2020 Gran Turismo franchise might not even exist anymore.

    /rant over
  8. MarchingSaint


    Exactly my feelings about the GT franchise.
    Except the fact that i'd buy it nonetheless just to "see things by myself"
  9. amdlll


    United States
    Before I buy GT7, PD will need to put in the features promised in GT6 first. Also, they need to let GT6 run its course for 3 years just like GT5 did. It's a comfortable amount of time before releasing another game, otherwise it would be kind of awkward... not only that, they should fully develop the game before they release it! They should also put in something like a racing tournament option in an open lobby like they do in single player. Win points in one race, they carry over to the next. Plus more people in an open lobby... less skylines... bring back ferrari f1.... okay, getting carried away now!
    MarchingSaint and Fryto like this.
  10. Zuku


    United States
    They aren't going to reason being those sales numbers are way down, and the next-gen is here.

    At first I was telling PD to put GT on PS3, but at this point GT6 is really a lost cause it's been a year almost since GT6 has come out, and still no signs of major features coming anytime soon, and even if they do come for most it's basically too little too late.

    Heck in the same time span that PD has had to at least get GT6 corrected other games have went over them I've always used GTA V as an example it's had 17 updates probably more in the span of a year.

    GT has only had 12, and only about 5 were meaningful.

    Although GTA V has 17 only 10 may have been extremely meaningful in any way. Still though you do the math.
  11. swsc73


    I don´t think I will make the same mistake like with GT6 and buy it too soon. I will first wait for the first feedbacks in this forum.:gtpflag:
    raven214 likes this.
  12. Flash3001


    Don't care. Just waiting the launch day
  13. Zuku


    United States
    It will take more than that friend in the mean time I insist please try other games. If you do that promise if GT is very poor the blow won't be so bad, and if it's very good then you can just hop right in.
    swsc73 likes this.
  14. raven214


    United States
    I call missing an expected release time by 7 months for 1 track to be wildly beyond the targeted release time. Granted, this is typical PD behavior, but that doesn't make it acceptable. I would be far more understanding if there had been any communication from PD in February - March letting us know there would be a delay, but instead - as is typical - we were given nothing but silence.

    The bugged software comment is referring to the bugs that almost always come with PD updates. To be fair, this happens with all games, but how do you not test out the obvious things, like can you play online with the new gauges installed? That's a no brainer thing to check before you release a new feature, ie., does it work.

    Hot lapping and time trials was referring to offline, but since you brought it up, where are all these people online? I readily admit I am not online like I used to be (becoming a parent really puts a hurt on free/gaming time), but when I am playing I rarely see anyone on GT6. Most of my PS3 friends are from GT5 and used to be on all the time, but now I barely see any of them and when they are on they are usually playing something other than GT6. I'm not saying no one is playing GT6, but it is evidence that a selection of dedicated GT players is not playing for whatever reason.

    When it comes to actually finding rooms in the game, I would say 90-95% of the rooms I see are drag/drift, car show/cruise, Nascar, or RS tires with no wear. The comeback to this is "host a room yourself," which I have tried with no success. The other day I created a room with realistic settings and waited a solid 30 minutes without a single soul joining. I don't have the time to commit to a regular racing league like I did in GT5 - it was a blast by the way(!) - so I am dependent on pickup races and the crap shoot that comes with them.

    I agree with the first part but you lost me on the second. There are a host of reasons why people leave a game. Time/boredom, new releases, life events, shortcomings of the game itself, etc... the age of the game is but one factor and this is where replayability and user customization (eg. course maker, strong race options), as well as good online features/support come into play.

    My recent experience has been that the community (active players in-game) seems to be on the decline. If it is improving, as you say, then why do we both need to "hunt" for a good room?

    I feel it's fairly overwhelming how bad of a racer GT6 is offline. For the most part, career mode is unimaginative and limiting, and the AI is horrendous.

    As bland and predictable as the AI may have been in GT5, at least it was consistent. Once you sandbagged your car enough, you could have a pretty good race. The rubber banding in GT6 destroys this, and as such it is very hard to find good racing offline unless you count the power up boost the lead AI seems to get at the end of the race once you pass him.

    The career is bland. It literally feels like a generic sampling of random races rather than any kind of larger career with true progression. I'm not talking about turning this into an RPG, but simply adding a sense of progressing through the ranks and working your way up. For example, we could choose a career path between cars (GT) and karts, starting at entry level and then working into bigger, faster race cars. Sunday Cup/bring your own "street car" races could be a whole separate category.

    Customization is lacking across the board offline. In career mode, tire wear/fuel use is only available in the highest level, and mechanical damage and AI difficulty are not even available as options. Single player "arcade" mode is even more limited, where no more are the options from GT5 for tire wear/fuel use, mechanical damage, and one-make races. If I want to create my own endurance race to make up for their total lack from career mode or simulate the Daytona or Indy 500 I have no way to do that in GT6.

    I don't particularly mind if there is silly stuff in Gran Turismo, but the racing needs to come first before crazy side projects are added. The frivolous stuff should never be done at the expense of the racing, but that is exactly .what it feels like to me right now.

    As a prerequisite for improving offline, the AI needs to at least be consistent - there are ways to work with that, that are not possible with the current rubber banding. Additionally, I really want to see more elements of racing:
    - practice/qualifying for all races
    - standing starts on road courses
    - tire wear/fuel use
    - optional mechanical damage (that affects AI cars as well)
    - some sort of adjustable difficulty
    - endurance races with B-spec driver swaps
    - an engaging career mode with a sense of progression and being a... career
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2014
  15. ItsHim

    ItsHim Premium

    • No G27 support (I seem to remember hardware OEMs have to provide drivers now for the PS4)
    • No Nordschleife (including dynamic weather/time transitions)
    • No stereoscopic 3D support
    • Financial crisis finally hits the real world economy thanks to the politicians who got voted for by the less intellectual gifted individuals 5 years ago
    Everything else is just an added bonus. I don't believe Occulus Rift is just yet ready for the mass market, but in 5 years time I'll jump on that wagon. If the GT series wouldn't offer something similar spectacular then, it's the end of the road for me. Probably.
    swsc73 likes this.
  16. avens


    Lack of G27 support. That's it really.

    Other plausible reasons could be that there isn't a single must play PS4 games by that time, or an economic crisis or some long lasting personal situation, but PD nor myself have much control over that :sly:. Just support the G27 and I'll buy GT7 (and a PS4) 99%; if not I'll pass.

    The thing with wheel support is that, if I purchase another one, it will have to be because of current consoles' support. So, if that happens I'll probably just end up purchasing a Xbox One compatible wheel and leave GT, because the Forza series has been topping the GT series for a quite a while and the gap is ever increasing with each new game. Not only that, there's a new one every year, with the main series and Horizon, and Forza 6 is shaping to be a game changer.
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2014
    Fat Tyre likes this.
  17. Zuku


    United States
    You know this is just way off topic I feel like had done a poll way back during the GT5 days when we were finding out how bad it was getting.

    Long story short I don't think many people would have been mentioning flipping to Xbox One/PC like they are now. Just been noticing more and more that Forza and Pcars getting tons more mentions.

    If that don't tell you something is wrong with GT man I don't honestly know what will.

    Back on Topic:

    If Wheel Support and 1 track is the reason to break you into buying GT7 I have no words.

    For me it's a long list summed up to one word......two....maybe three Quality and Immersion those two go hand in hand.

    This video of DiRT 3 is some things I want to see in GT7 for me to come back I know we're not racing cars Rally the entire time, but I mean the dust affects etc. When you got Weather man crap just play the game trust me it's worth it lol.

    Fast-Forward to about 9:00 mark when he drives the Ford Fiesta or think it's Lancer Evo X that's the kind of damage I want to see in GT7.
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2014
    MarchingSaint likes this.
  18. Nothing. I'll still buy GT7. I've been with PD's franchise since GT1-GT6. I've bought all games and enjoyed all games even despite all the games bugs, problems and annoyances and lack of features or options or things that i haven't liked about the games. I've still managed to hold onto the game and play it purely for the online entertainment element of being able to drag tune cars and drag with friends online. This is all i play it for.

    Although i am enjoying GT6 being able to drive a Ferrari 250 GT0 or a certain car as standard before upgrading it and then drag racing it. The fac of having some new content, ie cars or tuning features not on GT5 are still enjoyable to an extent and its the content GT6 offers which is really worth my buying it for the enjoymen i am getting.

    I feel GT7 on PS4 will be amazing enough in graphical terms like NFS: Rivals blew me away in graphical detail, resolution and fidelity. I feel GT7 will be amazing. GT8 will be even more impressive unless GT7 is designed to evolve into GT8 instead of releasing a whole new game. How about entertaining that theory and concept? who knows! All i know is i will be buying it no matter what.

    Just like i'll probably be buying Project cars on PS4 to experience that Next Generation feeling and excitement that was missing from PS3 era technology. Most of PS4 games i have played have all been exciting and enjoyable and impressive so far. PS4 has made me excited all like a little kid again like PS2 brought over PS1. And the Playstations brought over Sega or Nintendo. PS4 somehow brings back all the fun and excitement of what is possible and what you are able to experience.

    For me this is what Gaming is all about.
  19. rawbar


    G27 support, that's it.
    alexboph99 and Johnnypenso like this.
  20. Ddrizle


    Had steadily been losing interest in GT. After purchasing GT6, I couldn't care any less how GT7 plays, looks and/or feels, I've lost interest in the series all together.
    Fat Tyre likes this.
  21. ironman44321


    Yeah...I'll be buying GT7. Since I got GT4 like 40% of all my gaming has been GT. Quite frankly getting a new console wouldn't be worth it without GT.

    I'm hoping a praying for more wheel support so I don't have to buy another wheel (I just bought a rather expensive one last year).

    So pretty much even if GT7 is just a prettier GT6 I'll be fine. Though I'm pretty confident GT7 will be a return to form for PD and GT.
    TayeezSA and Tenacious D like this.
  22. Jay.


    United Kingdom
    I bought and played all the other GT games as they were released, but after the disappointment of GT6 and it's content support, GT7 will be the first in the series that I don't buy.
    I may however hire the game after a few months, depending on player reviews and feedback after release, then rethink my decision.
    Fat Tyre likes this.
  23. Cobra_GT500


    I would like to see b spec back 24 hour endurance races back and an interesting career mode.
  24. Pseudopod


    Realistically, no single thing will make or break my decision. The most it would do is decide how soon after release I would get the game.

    If I have to make a list or something, I think I would get the game on release if it had: day/night/weather cycle on every track, 800+ premiums and no standards, "them engine sounds", decent AI cars, and a much bigger career mode with more races that would include a much greater range of vehicles.

    Just a few of the above and I would probably get it once it got a price drop to 30-40 bucks. That's what I initially planned on anyway. I rarely buy games right after release. A few months down the road and they'll be cheaper and considerably less buggy. I have an enormous backlog of games to spend my time on while waiting anyway.

    I don't think there is anything PD can do to actually make me decide to never buy it. Even if it's GT6.1 with PS4-level graphics, I would buy it whenever the price dropped below 20 bucks. I would probably buy it even if it has standard cars, even though I really dislike them. I'd just do what I do in GT6, avoid buying them whenever possible. I always pick premium versions even if they cost more and have slightly worse performance.
    JKgo likes this.
  25. titleguy1


    United States
    Regardless, I will buy it. The question is, will I play it. I'm expecting a lot from GT7, since GT6 to me was somewhat of a letdown. However, if it is exactly or nearly the same as GT6, I may not play it.
  26. SlipZtrEm

    SlipZtrEm Administrator

    Reviews from members I trust, here on GTPlanet. I haven't moved to the new generation of consoles yet, but when I do, it'll be for a handful of series. GT disappointed me enough with the PS3 titles that the next game will be the first since GT2 that I don't buy on day one.
    raven214 and Johnnypenso like this.
  27. Tornado


    Whether PD honors the advertised GT6 featureset. Choosing a PS4 specifically is already a pretty questionable proposition, so if PD fails to actually deliver anything related to all of the "coming in a future update" features (especially if they ultimately advertise them as being held over for the next game) you can pretty much write off anything that they promise for GT7 until the game actually releases.

    Which is a pretty far cry from the "buy the system for the eventual appearance of the series" momentum that was so strong going into 2005.
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2014
  28. Griffith500


    I suspect for many, it's not just "whether", but also "when" PD gets GT6 where they want it. A "Spec II" or equivalent not too long from now might cut it.

    For me personally, I'm already sold on account of the inevitable improvements to sound, and the eventual final destination that the "Grand Tour" event from GT5 represents. That is, unless someone else beats them to it, which seems unlikely given that that someone else would have to not yield to the immediate demands of the vocal playerbase, which would potentially be commercial suicide (investment wise) for a fresh face, and well beyond the consideration of any of the entrenched developers.

    I love me some idealism, I do. :D
  29. 92E36BMW325i


    To be honest , i´ll buy it no matter what. That day i´ll buy both the PS4 and GT7

    GRANTURISMO 7 Things to expect. (dream about)
    AI difficulty from 0 to 100% : relentless, agressive, late braking, fast through the corners. In GT5 & GT6 is just crap.
    More exhaust sound just too silent. Real race cars are hugely loud, and road cars as well, we all know.
    Standing starts with full grid. ( like in the redbull junior event )
    Qualifying option ( in previous GTs there was )
    The rear view exterior camera is ridiculous, completely static, useless.
    So much cars all 1990S bimmers, mercs, audis, volks, renaults, citroens, the lot....
    Can´t be possible they feature 3 lap 3 races Championships in International A
    Grids make no sense at all, either in order, or cars included just a random mix of cars.
    Free tyre choice, stop messing with that, instead of making players go slower they must make AI faster and champioships longer and tougher, like they were in GT3 & GT4, best structured games in the series.
    Finished GT6 in 4 or 5 days maybe? Just nonsense.
    Make a proper lemans 24h grid with 56 or so cars.
    Cheers, have fun.
  30. raven214


    United States
    Since posting in this thread I took another look at Project Cars and at what it aims to do. I must say, I am blown away by the planned features. Most everything Pcars is trying to do are things I have been dreaming of seeing in GT6.

    For me, the premise of this thread has shifted. I am squarely in the Pcars camp now, so the only way I can see myself getting GT7 and a PS4 is if Pcars is a total failure and I don't decide to go for some alternative (e.g. iRacing). An appeal for me of GT and console gaming in general has always been the ability to get right into a session from the comfort of my living room, but I am willing to forgo that if it means getting virtually everything I have been waiting (years now) for GT to still be nowhere near ready to deliver.

    I suppose I would have to return to the table if tomorrow PD releases updated AI, B-spec, endurance races, the course maker, etc, etc... but let's just say I'm not exactly holding my breath on that one.