- 22
- Canada
- Overlandrex3
Had some contact in today's championship race. Just wanted to learn from the incidents and see if I did something wrong, particularly in the first clip. Thanks!
Whose Fault Was It? (Incident Review Request)
- Thread starter Overlandrex3
- 25 comments
- 1,319 views
Veinz
Premium
- 4,847
- Ontario
Looks like the Mustang was on and off his brakes multiple times there. It looks like you out braked him even from that far back, so I wouldn't worry about it. He was maybe just being a little too cautious because of the cars ahead, the laggy car definitely does not help the situation.
As for the second vid, The Mercedes should have seen that coming, so I would put the blame on him.
As for the second vid, The Mercedes should have seen that coming, so I would put the blame on him.
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- 17
- Netherlands
I don't get the replies above. When it comes to corner rights, I always believed the deciding factor to be the amount of overlap the chasing car (you in this case) has on the defender at the turn-in point.
If we pause both of your vids at this point, we clearly see that in the first one you do not have any overlap at all. What the Mustang may or may not have done in the braking zone is not relevant anymore. This means the corner rights are all his. I hate to break it to you, but IMO this collision is 100% a classic divebomb and thus your fault. I think the correct course of action here would have been to let the other guy overtake you again and continue racing from there.
The second case is totally different. At turn-in point (at least I guess this is it, can't fully see the other car in the vid), you have achieved significant overlap. On a side note, what exactly qualifies as significant is subjective and debatable, but I think even the more conservative racers say half a car length is enough, which you have done here. Therefore the other driver is wrong for taking the racing line and thereby cutting you off.
As a final remark, I would like to add that the timing of your second overtake may not be the best. If the other guy would have defended the outside, he would end up with the inside line for the following right onto the long straight and you'd probably have to tuck in behind him again, costing both of you some time. Might have been better to stick behind him until the chicane after this straight and outbrake him there.
If we pause both of your vids at this point, we clearly see that in the first one you do not have any overlap at all. What the Mustang may or may not have done in the braking zone is not relevant anymore. This means the corner rights are all his. I hate to break it to you, but IMO this collision is 100% a classic divebomb and thus your fault. I think the correct course of action here would have been to let the other guy overtake you again and continue racing from there.
The second case is totally different. At turn-in point (at least I guess this is it, can't fully see the other car in the vid), you have achieved significant overlap. On a side note, what exactly qualifies as significant is subjective and debatable, but I think even the more conservative racers say half a car length is enough, which you have done here. Therefore the other driver is wrong for taking the racing line and thereby cutting you off.
As a final remark, I would like to add that the timing of your second overtake may not be the best. If the other guy would have defended the outside, he would end up with the inside line for the following right onto the long straight and you'd probably have to tuck in behind him again, costing both of you some time. Might have been better to stick behind him until the chicane after this straight and outbrake him there.
dabz343
(Banned)
- 950
- United States
- dabz343
Correctly out braking someone into a corner is one of those skills that novice drivers must master if they are to ever evolve. And it can be a bit confusing especially if guys see a door being left wide open, so kudos for putting up your replay and inviting critiques. Hope our thoughts help.
So the 1st important criteria that applies during an out braking situation is, do you achieve significant overlap by the end of the braking zone and before the lead car starts his turn in? Well, in this snapshot where the mustang starts his turn in, you did not quite make it.
If you had achieved significant overlap, then the 2nd criteria comes into play, did you make your way around the apex in a controlled manner? Or did you understeer across the track because you came in too hot and out of control?
Try to stay away from these lunges. It may gain you a position over a junior driver that is not very confident on the brakes, but over time it reinforces bad racecraft. Btw, if the mustang is showing weakness in turn 1, there must have been other parts of the track that you could have exploited to pass cleanly.
Sometimes being patient and taking some time to set someone up for a clean and authoritative pass is hugely rewarding and usually elevates one's race IQ...if you can complete a clean pass then build a gap, well then that can just demoralize your opponents like nothing else.
So the 1st important criteria that applies during an out braking situation is, do you achieve significant overlap by the end of the braking zone and before the lead car starts his turn in? Well, in this snapshot where the mustang starts his turn in, you did not quite make it.
If you had achieved significant overlap, then the 2nd criteria comes into play, did you make your way around the apex in a controlled manner? Or did you understeer across the track because you came in too hot and out of control?
Try to stay away from these lunges. It may gain you a position over a junior driver that is not very confident on the brakes, but over time it reinforces bad racecraft. Btw, if the mustang is showing weakness in turn 1, there must have been other parts of the track that you could have exploited to pass cleanly.
Sometimes being patient and taking some time to set someone up for a clean and authoritative pass is hugely rewarding and usually elevates one's race IQ...if you can complete a clean pass then build a gap, well then that can just demoralize your opponents like nothing else.
- 3,050
- England
- kilesa4568
The 1st clip is clumsy. Try and respect the other driver's predicted lines. They looked tentative having 2 cars side by side in front of them and a lagger coming in from behind. Attempting a lunge from 10 cars back is hardly ever going to end well though. Even if they are weak on the brakes.
The 2nd, you made the apex nicely and the other driver turned in on you. Pretty weird they didn't defend...
The 2nd, you made the apex nicely and the other driver turned in on you. Pretty weird they didn't defend...
- 22
- Canada
- Overlandrex3
Thanks for the critical feedback! As a general rule, I agree with you that overlap should control. I posted the first clip because I thought there might be exceptions.
I do realize I was probably too far behind the Mustang in this particular instance, but suppose I was closer yet not as close as achieving any overlap. When the track is as wide as Turn 1 at Nürburgring GP, it is possible that it would take longer for the Mustang on the outside to reach the apex than for me on the inside to simply make the turn before the Mustang gets there. I don’t think I would have to pull over and wait for the Mustang.
- 714
- New York
- GTP-DEADPOOL
With the first incident I agree with the others on it being 100% your fault. 2nd incident you were in the right and the other driver should have left you room on the inside.
While it might take the Mustang driver “longer” to reach the apex, he is on the race line and will have significantly higher exit speed past the apex. The key is he was already turning in and you were still too far behind. At that point the corner is his and attempting a pass will be a dive bomb.
Gotta remember that a lot of guys are using cockpit or bumper cam which has limited peripheral vision. Some cars also have terrible mirror setups which PD needs to address. So for the Mustang, he would have no idea you are there until it’s wayyyyy too late.
Myself personally. If I’m not at least halfway alongside you at the start of the brake zone I abort the pass and look for another opportunity, it’s simply not worth it. For the 2nd vid, while you were not at fault, I’d say you would have had better luck passing him on the straight right after those corners, sit behind him then take a wider entry on the right hander to give you a higher exit speed to pass him as he stays tight to defend. Just a friendly tip
K3Tuning
(Banned)
- 649
- United States
IMHO
1st is your fault. You don't get track position by turn in. As far as overlap goes I know nothing of this concept. I know Track position is given to the inside car if the inside and outside car are side by side. Inside line technically is a shorter line and thus when 2 cars are side by side going in technically the inside car is in the lead. You were not even close to side by side when he started his turn in, and in his eyes you came out of nowhere & bombed the corner.
2nd video is sweet. You out maneuvered him and seems he was bitter. I love doing this when I can. Make a move one way they cut the other way when they go to block. Sweet.
1st is your fault. You don't get track position by turn in. As far as overlap goes I know nothing of this concept. I know Track position is given to the inside car if the inside and outside car are side by side. Inside line technically is a shorter line and thus when 2 cars are side by side going in technically the inside car is in the lead. You were not even close to side by side when he started his turn in, and in his eyes you came out of nowhere & bombed the corner.
2nd video is sweet. You out maneuvered him and seems he was bitter. I love doing this when I can. Make a move one way they cut the other way when they go to block. Sweet.
- 3,250
- Canada
Firat one 70/30 your fault, you're bombing I from way back.
Second one 100% the other guy. That was a clean passing move and you musta leava da space.
Second one 100% the other guy. That was a clean passing move and you musta leava da space.
- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
Your fault is, you are too far away from the other car to be visible on radar. Especially in the second clip. You are driving in his blind spot, radar included.
In the second one it does seem you have overlap before turn in, however you are so far to the left the other car likely didn't see you there until he was already committed to his turn. It's his fault for not leaving you any room at the apex, however it could have been easily prevented if you had stayed at most a car width away from the other car.
In the first one the other car is already turning before you come alongside, yet he seems to be lagging a bit as well and is probably quite distracted by the 3rd car jumping around wildly to be paying attention to you. Your dive doesn't look pretty though.
In the second one it does seem you have overlap before turn in, however you are so far to the left the other car likely didn't see you there until he was already committed to his turn. It's his fault for not leaving you any room at the apex, however it could have been easily prevented if you had stayed at most a car width away from the other car.
In the first one the other car is already turning before you come alongside, yet he seems to be lagging a bit as well and is probably quite distracted by the 3rd car jumping around wildly to be paying attention to you. Your dive doesn't look pretty though.
- 2,647
The problem with the move on the second clip is that you’re way off the racing line, making it much less likely that the other driver would see you or expect an overtake. Doing this also makes your speed on the apex very slow.
That leads to a much bigger collision and you losing 2 positions instead of gaining 1, collision or not.
That leads to a much bigger collision and you losing 2 positions instead of gaining 1, collision or not.
- 921
- Whitefish Bay(B
- bdubclub
If you have to ask....
Both were noob moves, 2nd one especially, I can’t see how people think that was alright. First the swerve, second you have a terrible line entering, so even if he left you a few more feet it wouldn’t have mattered, you were coming through anyway. No way possible you were holding that apex with that corner entry. 100% on you 0 on him. This is what is frustrating with newer players, there is no “last of the late brakers” in sim racing, it’s not the fast way around. In that instance, you needed to tuck in behind him through those two corners, and concentrate on nailing the exit down the hill leading to the chicane. You were so close to that guy, he may have even made a mistake just by you staying on his bumper. Pressure in this game is real, it’s hard driving mistake free when someone is stalking you. Be patient, you will make more passes.
Both were noob moves, 2nd one especially, I can’t see how people think that was alright. First the swerve, second you have a terrible line entering, so even if he left you a few more feet it wouldn’t have mattered, you were coming through anyway. No way possible you were holding that apex with that corner entry. 100% on you 0 on him. This is what is frustrating with newer players, there is no “last of the late brakers” in sim racing, it’s not the fast way around. In that instance, you needed to tuck in behind him through those two corners, and concentrate on nailing the exit down the hill leading to the chicane. You were so close to that guy, he may have even made a mistake just by you staying on his bumper. Pressure in this game is real, it’s hard driving mistake free when someone is stalking you. Be patient, you will make more passes.
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- 549
- New York
- soundtiger95
I disagree with this assessment completely. That move in the second video is perfectly fine and OP absolutely would have held the apex. They weren’t carrying all that much speed. A move like that is definitely ok as long as you’re confident in your skills and do it with authority instead of second guessing yourself and hesitating for a second. It is an aggressive move for sure, but it’s one that can be pulled off.
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- 2,277
- UK
- TPC_Watto
Just to weigh in on the second video conversation. I do think it's fair to say that your move was fine within the rules and spirit of racing. You had a run on the other car, they moved to the racing line and you made a move up the inside. Regardless of the argument that it's better at that part of the track to follow them through that left/right section and pass on the straight that follows, your move on this particular corner was still fine.
However! I believe you have to make it as easy as possible for the other car to know where you are and what you are doing. Sven rightly points out that you were in their blind spot of basically every camera view available AND their radar. This was because when they moved to the right of the track you moved almost the entire way to the left. Yes it was still the other cars responsibility to not hit you at the apex, but you made it more difficult for them than it needed to be.
What I would advise in that situation is when the other car moved to the right to stay on the racing line, you should position you car on their left but only leave a very small gap. This way you could appear in the drivers peripheral vision, will be on their radar, and if you are close enough they will be getting the ingame proximity warning. This leaves it very obvious to them where you are and would discourage them from turning in on you. It also gives you a better line through the corner.
Of course some drivers will turn in anyway, but at least you have done everything you could to make an incident less likely.
As I said, yes it was their responsibility to not hit you but after you disappeared from every view they had available they probably just decided to go for the apex as normal. Then, suddenly, BAM there you are.
All just my opinion. Make it as easy as possible for other drivers to see and know what you are doing. When I get mixed up in incidents it's always a good idea to watch the replay from other drivers perspectives. This can often change how you feel about your own driving.
The less said about the first incident the better, but well done for posting both videos and inviting feedback.
However! I believe you have to make it as easy as possible for the other car to know where you are and what you are doing. Sven rightly points out that you were in their blind spot of basically every camera view available AND their radar. This was because when they moved to the right of the track you moved almost the entire way to the left. Yes it was still the other cars responsibility to not hit you at the apex, but you made it more difficult for them than it needed to be.
What I would advise in that situation is when the other car moved to the right to stay on the racing line, you should position you car on their left but only leave a very small gap. This way you could appear in the drivers peripheral vision, will be on their radar, and if you are close enough they will be getting the ingame proximity warning. This leaves it very obvious to them where you are and would discourage them from turning in on you. It also gives you a better line through the corner.
Of course some drivers will turn in anyway, but at least you have done everything you could to make an incident less likely.
As I said, yes it was their responsibility to not hit you but after you disappeared from every view they had available they probably just decided to go for the apex as normal. Then, suddenly, BAM there you are.
All just my opinion. Make it as easy as possible for other drivers to see and know what you are doing. When I get mixed up in incidents it's always a good idea to watch the replay from other drivers perspectives. This can often change how you feel about your own driving.
The less said about the first incident the better, but well done for posting both videos and inviting feedback.
nuu1212
(Banned)
- 282
- Germany
Both times your fault, because you are just taking ridiculous lines far far away from an 'ideal' or 'standard' racing line.
My logic is as simple as this:
If you are overtaking by taking a totally different line, it is your responsibility not to cause a collision.
These "overlap" situations/discussions/considerations IMHO only become relevant if both cars take approximately the same line.
Only in this case does the term "turn in point" make any sense, because both are closely side by side and have to turn in at approximately a common point. If the driver ahead turns in on the car behind despite an overlap of more than 1/2 car, he obviously causes the collision.
In neither of the videos does the opponent "turn in" on you, they just drive their standard line.
Fun side note: Please translate this to French, Italian and Spanish...
Serious side note: The current SR/penalty system completely misjudges this, you get ridiculous SR- if you just drive a standard line and someone interferes with that line as e.g. in your videos. I am 100% sure that the Mustang got SR- there, because it happened to me about 20 times last week.
Pretty hard to know about racing lines for a "steward system", but still they could try harder...
My logic is as simple as this:
If you are overtaking by taking a totally different line, it is your responsibility not to cause a collision.
These "overlap" situations/discussions/considerations IMHO only become relevant if both cars take approximately the same line.
Only in this case does the term "turn in point" make any sense, because both are closely side by side and have to turn in at approximately a common point. If the driver ahead turns in on the car behind despite an overlap of more than 1/2 car, he obviously causes the collision.
In neither of the videos does the opponent "turn in" on you, they just drive their standard line.
Fun side note: Please translate this to French, Italian and Spanish...
Serious side note: The current SR/penalty system completely misjudges this, you get ridiculous SR- if you just drive a standard line and someone interferes with that line as e.g. in your videos. I am 100% sure that the Mustang got SR- there, because it happened to me about 20 times last week.
Pretty hard to know about racing lines for a "steward system", but still they could try harder...
- 921
- Whitefish Bay(B
- bdubclub
May have been a bit harsh, and if it was or wasn’t ok, we can agree to disagree there. Either way, he ended up losing a position going for the move, instead of possibly gaining one by falling back in line.
- 549
- New York
- soundtiger95
And the only reason why they lost a position was because the other driver had no idea what they were doing and had zero situational awareness, nor did they hold their line. OP was coming up on them quick and got alongside well before the turn. If that’s me in the outside car, I’m going to hold the outside line and give way because I was beaten. The other driver should have seen all of this happen and react accordingly instead of just continuing on with a line like he is hot lapping.
- 3,050
- England
- kilesa4568
Both moves came from either being too far back (vid 1) or taking a line which put you too shallow on the entry to the corner (both 1 and 2).
When attacking a position, I will always place my car as close as I can get to my opponent. This shows them that I am there, if they don't see me and still try and turn in the hit won't be as hard, and you control the corner, when you turn in, what speed you want to do and what line you take (within reason) on exit. Going 1 or 2 car widths up the inside really compromises your entry and exit of corners, if you do manage to get the position cleanly, you will lose it again very quickly.
In Vid 1, you should have made a dummy move. Show your nose but don't try to overtake. Next lap around, if you're a bit closer, they will probably leave you room to make that overtake.
In Vid 2 you just needed to be a bit closer to the car in front.
When attacking a position, I will always place my car as close as I can get to my opponent. This shows them that I am there, if they don't see me and still try and turn in the hit won't be as hard, and you control the corner, when you turn in, what speed you want to do and what line you take (within reason) on exit. Going 1 or 2 car widths up the inside really compromises your entry and exit of corners, if you do manage to get the position cleanly, you will lose it again very quickly.
In Vid 1, you should have made a dummy move. Show your nose but don't try to overtake. Next lap around, if you're a bit closer, they will probably leave you room to make that overtake.
In Vid 2 you just needed to be a bit closer to the car in front.
K3Tuning
(Banned)
- 649
- United States
In the video buddy explain this as a clean inside pass, the contact the fault of the outside car. Looks very much like our situation number 2
Now our Friends Aston has more of an overlap only real difference would be he's a foot or so deeper on the inside, but really don't see an issue with that especially with context .
Seems a bit wide yeah, but only because Merc cut from one side of the track to the other on a straight to cut off the Aston who was on the optimum line....
The only real question here would be that of intent on part of the outside driver. Did he intend to hit the inside car.
Probably didn't intend to do it only because I dont think he saw him. In my opinion it seems the Merc should of seen the Aston if using cockpit cam or anything but bumper cam. Bumper cam so far forward you lose vision on the sides where other cams you can see. That's nobodies fault but his, you choose that cam for its advantages, can see so clear just its very far forward, you have to accept the disadvantages where you have to use the joystick to look around more. In this case even intent I don't think matters since the merc put himself in a position he can't see properly and didn't look, its his fault.
Now our Friends Aston has more of an overlap only real difference would be he's a foot or so deeper on the inside, but really don't see an issue with that especially with context .
Seems a bit wide yeah, but only because Merc cut from one side of the track to the other on a straight to cut off the Aston who was on the optimum line....
The only real question here would be that of intent on part of the outside driver. Did he intend to hit the inside car.
Probably didn't intend to do it only because I dont think he saw him. In my opinion it seems the Merc should of seen the Aston if using cockpit cam or anything but bumper cam. Bumper cam so far forward you lose vision on the sides where other cams you can see. That's nobodies fault but his, you choose that cam for its advantages, can see so clear just its very far forward, you have to accept the disadvantages where you have to use the joystick to look around more. In this case even intent I don't think matters since the merc put himself in a position he can't see properly and didn't look, its his fault.
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