Why is "Duping" so frowned upon as cheating when rubberband grinding is fine?

[Tornado]

If you got that much of a problem with the game that you can't play it as designed and intended without exploiting loopholes, then just turn the game off and go play something else.
💡

Or I can just, you know, play the game the way that I want to (which, coincidentally, means "play the game the way I played previous GTs). And if that requires the occasional duping or B-Day exploiting or whatnot, so be it. That way, I still got to enjoy what the game brings to the table, but I don't have to put up with (some of) the stupider aspects of its design.

 

[limesutam]

Personally, without some sort of "safe" trading system, where you both send your cars to a neutral account, and once each has been received, the cars are sent to the corresponding account.

"duping" as you call it makes perfect sense.

IMO there should have never been trading in the first place, but since it's here with no way of keeping it fair, the latter must follow.

and yes I do trade, Because it's my choice.

It's comical how people will let B-spec run for a whole day and then say that duping takes away form their racing time.

Maybe a case of the pot calling the kettle black......................

 

[prymet1me]

Another moral thread, I swear I will NEVER EVER understand why it bothers so many gtp members if other players decided to dupe in THEIR game. It almost seems the ones preaching about how you "should" play the game have some issues they need to work out on their own. Duping does not interfere with you game in any possible way.

 

[prymet1me]

Personally, without some sort of "safe" trading system, where you both send your cars to a neutral account, and once each has been received, the cars are sent to the corresponding account.

"duping" as you call it makes perfect sense.

IMO there should have never been trading in the first place, but since it's here with no way of keeping it fair, the latter must follow.

and yes I do trade, Because it's my choice.

It's comical how people will let B-spec run for a whole day and then say that duping takes away form their racing time.

Maybe a case of the pot calling the kettle black......................

This %100 true. Surprised this thread hasnt been visited by mods yet.

 

[Greycap]

To all those who don't think duping affects anybody else and gives zero advantage over others.

Let's assume there are two players, player A and player B. Both of them have earned five million credits. Both of them buy a car that drains their bank account and begin playing online. Soon it becomes apparent that a different kind of a fast car is needed. They both go their ways about it:

Player A starts doing more races to save another five million credits. It takes around five hours of playing (seasonal events not taken into account) to be able to get the desired car and return to the online races.

Player B pulls out a backup game save, buys the desired car, sends it to another account and back again after replacing the save once more. Back in the game in a couple of minutes with a free car.

Zero advantage my bottom end.

 

[Devedander]

It's that 'time/return' philisophy, Devedander, that is exactly what I disagree with.
If one spends the time to earn something, they return with what they've earned. With that logic, robbing a bank has a much better 'time/return' ratio than working at a job for making money, no?

So do you disagree with rubber band grinding? I mean yes it takes time, but if that's time you are asleep and don't have to actually interact with the game, it's not YOUR time it takes.

What about Bspecing races bob wins with no interaction from you?

As for robbing a bank, it's actually fairly hard to do successfully so the investment in learning how to do it right actually hurts the time/reward ratio.

That said, the time/reward really only applies if all else is equal, which obviously with robbing banks it is not.

 

[Lucas]

I don't know what "duping" is, for what I have read I understand it's something external to the game (that is, it can't be done with just the game and nothing else). If not, I would please ask someone to explain the term to me.

There's a game, Vagrant Story, where you were recommended in some FAQs to get a turbo controller in order to make some things easier. It was not cheating, it was simply replacing the human part by an automated process. A normal human could do it, but he/she would get bored.

Put bluntly, if the process (pushing buttons, etc.) was meant to be done (obviously by someone, a human being), yet still can be done in an automated process, then it is not cheating. However, I don't frown upon cheating. Everyone has the right to do with their game what they please, as long as it is not illegal.

 

[jjaisli]

To all those who don't think duping affects anybody else and gives zero advantage over others.

Let's assume there are two players, player A and player B. Both of them have earned five million credits. Both of them buy a car that drains their bank account and begin playing online. Soon it becomes apparent that a different kind of a fast car is needed. They both go their ways about it:

Player A starts doing more races to save another five million credits. It takes around five hours of playing (seasonal events not taken into account) to be able to get the desired car and return to the online races.

Player B pulls out a backup game save, buys the desired car, sends it to another account and back again after replacing the save once more. Back in the game in a couple of minutes with a free car.

Zero advantage my bottom end.

This is a flawed argument. And either way, all it proves to me is how ridiculous it is having to grind away to earn credits to buy the cars.

 

[prymet1me]

To all those who don't think duping affects anybody else and gives zero advantage over others.

Let's assume there are two players, player A and player B. Both of them have earned five million credits. Both of them buy a car that drains their bank account and begin playing online. Soon it becomes apparent that a different kind of a fast car is needed. They both go their ways about it:

Player A starts doing more races to save another five million credits. It takes around five hours of playing (seasonal events not taken into account) to be able to get the desired car and return to the online races.

Player B pulls out a backup game save, buys the desired car, sends it to another account and back again after replacing the save once more. Back in the game in a couple of minutes with a free car.

Zero advantage my bottom end.

See the this fails hard because you have no idea how much money the other guy has. Nice try however, besides that you can always find another room that is using cars in the class you have.

 

[strngz0731]

I guess I need to speak a little clearer.

I think duping is cheating.
(You're disregarding the system in place and using non-gameplay methods in order to reap game benefits, and that's cheating to me...)

I do not care how you choose to play GT5.
I do not care why you choose to play GT5.
I don't care if you dupe.
I do not care why you choose to dupe.
I do not care how you choose to justify duping.

It sure would be great if a portion of the effort spent duping was more constructively applied to trying to make the game better for everyone.

Or not.

It's probably easier to play the game through the loopholes of duping than it is to try to get the game improved anyway...

 

[prymet1me]

I guess I need to speak a little clearer.

I think duping is cheating.
(You're disregarding the system in place and using non-gameplay methods in order to reap game benefits, and that's cheating to me...)

I do not care how you choose to play GT5.
I do not care why you choose to play GT5.
I don't care if you dupe.
I do not care why you choose to dupe.
I do not care how you choose to justify duping.

It sure would be great if a portion of the effort spent duping was more constructively applied to trying to make the game better for everyone.

Or not.

It's probably easier to play the game through the loopholes of duping than it is to try to get the game improved anyway...

If you have any ideas that would improve A spec so I wouldn't have to dupe cars or do as much grinding I would be more than happy to try them.

 

[Devedander]

Another moral thread, I swear I will NEVER EVER understand why it bothers so many gtp members if other players decided to dupe in THEIR game. It almost seems the ones preaching about how you "should" play the game have some issues they need to work out on their own. Duping does not interfere with you game in any possible way.

What people say doesn't bother me, I subscribe to the "do what makes you happy as long as it doesn't screw up my game" theory.

But I am always curious about why people say what they say... hearing the logic behind other's points of view is often educational for everyone involved.

 

[Exorcet]

To all those who don't think duping affects anybody else and gives zero advantage over others.

It doesn't. Player A was just stupid enough to enter a race where his car couldn't compete. If player A made a room where only his car was competitive, he'd be more than fine.

It sure would be great if a portion of the effort spent duping was more constructively applied to trying to make the game better for everyone.

Duping stops me from improving the game? How. I'm sure that PD has noticed duping, and the complaints from those who dupe. If everyone had just stayed quiet, why would PD do anything?

 

[Ya Pops]

To all those who don't think duping affects anybody else and gives zero advantage over others.

Let's assume there are two players, player A and player B. Both of them have earned five million credits. Both of them buy a car that drains their bank account and begin playing online. Soon it becomes apparent that a different kind of a fast car is needed. They both go their ways about it:

Player A starts doing more races to save another five million credits. It takes around five hours of playing (seasonal events not taken into account) to be able to get the desired car and return to the online races.

Player B pulls out a backup game save, buys the desired car, sends it to another account and back again after replacing the save once more. Back in the game in a couple of minutes with a free car.

Zero advantage my bottom end.

I've never utilised that form of duping, but I'd have to commend Player B for giving fun priority.

So did everyone else leave the lobby, or is Player B stuck hotlapping by himself for 5hrs while Player A sorts his 🤬 out?

5hrs....

 

[DAG0-CHOPPERS61]

I guess I need to speak a little clearer.

I think duping is cheating.
(You're disregarding the system in place and using non-gameplay methods in order to reap game benefits, and that's cheating to me...)

I do not care how you choose to play GT5.
I do not care why you choose to play GT5.
I don't care if you dupe.
I do not care why you choose to dupe.
I do not care how you choose to justify duping.

It sure would be great if a portion of the effort spent duping was more constructively applied to trying to make the game better for everyone.

Or not.

It's probably easier to play the game through the loopholes of duping than it is to try to get the game improved anyway...

WHO CARES???

1st. why isn't GT5 like GT3 where it takes over a year to get near 80% game done. not 2 months!

2nd. make the liscense test like old gt series. where you need to complete tests to run certain levels of racing. not do seasonal races to rank up and do them them. takes no skill!!

I don't care who cry's on here about duping. i paid 60.00 to play the game THE WAY I WANT!!!

thank you

 

[limesutam]

It would be cool though if you could open an online lobby with your friends and send them each the exact same car to drive.

Maybe with standards only since you can buy the premiums. Then once the race is over, everyone except the original owner and the winner of the race loses the car.

that's where I think duping would come in handy.

For a totally different purpose mind you.


Anyhow, I have used up all my 2cents for today..Thanks for reading

 

[prymet1me]

What people say doesn't bother me, I subscribe to the "do what makes you happy as long as it doesn't screw up my game" theory.

But I am always curious about why people say what they say... hearing the logic behind other's points of view is often educational for everyone involved.

Good point..BUT, I have yet to read one good reason besides "I think it would take away from MY personal enjoyment of the game." It seems the rest are just terrible arguments from players that honestly just sound a little hurt because everyone does not feel like grinding over and over again to drive cars they actually want to drive. Cause I will be honest with you, duping has extended this games life with me..and seasonal events if they ever come back.

 

[Tvensky]

Duping is Cheating. end of story!

Unfair driving, agressive driving, corner cutting, raming (not braking), wallriding is just stupidity and dishonest people using flaws! end of second story! Easy! 👍

EDIT: Grinding Ovals is not cheating - because you "PLAY" the game

 

[strngz0731]

So do you disagree with rubber band grinding? I mean yes it takes time, but if that's time you are asleep and don't have to actually interact with the game, it's not YOUR time it takes.

What about Bspecing races bob wins with no interaction from you?

As for robbing a bank, it's actually fairly hard to do successfully so the investment in learning how to do it right actually hurts the time/reward ratio.

That said, the time/reward really only applies if all else is equal, which obviously with robbing banks it is not.

Rubberband grinding, that I don't consider as cheating, just a dumb version of b-spec grinding.

Like I said originally, I farm b-spec all the time to acquire credits to legitimately buy cars in-game. (I started the 9-hours endurance b-spec race before I left for work.)
I also then don't copy them in order so I can recover the credits.

I also distinguished differences in effort and skill and interaction between a-spec and b-spec. The difference between b-spec and duping is that b-spec is a designed game element... Duping is...

(Sorry, I'm not all up on the logistics of heists, but I stand by the concept the example illustrated - that the time/return ratio of an activity doesn't justify any possible right/wrong element to an activity...)

 

[jjaisli]

Duping is Cheating. end of story!

Unfair driving, agressive driving, corner cutting, raming (not braking), wallriding is just stupidity and dishonest people using flaws! end of second story! Easy! 👍

Are you suggesting it's one and the same?

 

[Tvensky]

Are you suggesting it's one and the same?

dishonest people using flaws - YES! (its not stupidity - you have to press SixAxis buttons at least.. )

 

[Greycap]

This is a flawed argument.

See the this fails hard because you have no idea how much money the other guy has.

Interesting how it instantly becomes flawed or a fail when it clearly shows how the system really works for the benefit of those who do it.

OK; let's raise the amount of credits to the full 20 million. Fair play for both sides. What does the honest player get for it? One (1) Ferrari 330 P4, for example. Now what does the cheater get? Every car in the game that is buyable on the current level. Very hard to deny and surely has an impact on online playing.

I have yet to read one good reason besides "I think it would take away from MY personal enjoyment of the game." ... Cause I will be honest with you, duping has extended this games life with me..

So when somebody else says "it takes away from my enjoyment" it isn't a good enough reason but when you say "it extends the game's life for me" it is? Your enjoyment must be much more important then the others' in that case.

 

[nik99]

Marking the save file as exportable was a tick in a box. Implementing a proper, anti-duping system takes time and I believe this exploitation is the reaction to a kneejerk fix on PDs part. A longer term solution will likely involve the server capturing your trades and comparing them against your progress file.

I expect to see anti-duping implemented in a forthcoming patch.

Sony and PD care about:
1. Money.
2. Having money.
3. Getting more money.
4. Do you know where there is any more money? (Sony would like to have it.)

Is there some way that users repeatedly copying saved game data at a time that is 'convenient' for the user has any impact on what is really important to Sony/PD?

I have several issues with your proposed anti-duping measures;
a) It will hurt people who have legitimately lost their game progress. Sometimes a PS3 will just stop working.
b) I have 2 PS3's.
i. Can I use the same PSN on each or do I need a unique one for each system? (I really don't know?)
ii. Do I have to copy the savegame data over each time I switch systems? (inconsistent progress in my save game means I am cheating?)
iii. Is Sony going to ban my PSN and get a court order to stop me from ever owning or talking about a PS3 because I don't fully understand the EULA?
iv. When are the Fun Police going to show up at my house?
v. How long will I be in jail?

 

[jjaisli]

dishonest people using flaws - YES! (its not stupidity - you have to press SixAxis buttons at least.. )

Can you really sit there in all honesty and tell me that somebody who rams somebody else or punts somebody out in the braking zone, who seeks to gain an unfair advantage can be lumped together with people who dupe cars? How is it even remotely similar?

 

[jjaisli]

Interesting how it instantly becomes flawed or a fail when it clearly shows how the system really works for the benefit of those who do it.

It's a flawed argument Graycap for several reasons.

But I can tell you this, if you were in a lobby with me and I had the car and you didn't, I'd gladly send it to you without a second thought. I don't play the game to collect the cars. I play to race the cars.

EDIT: Sorry for the double post.

 

[Tvensky]

Can you really sit there in all honesty and tell me that somebody who rams somebody else or punts somebody out in the braking zone, who seeks to gain an unfair advantage can be lumped together with people who dupe cars? How is it even remotely similar?

ahh, shut up cheater defender, I dont want to waste my time with you! 👎 Cant I have my "own" Opinion. Duping is Cheating... what are you going to do with that its a fact. End of story. now leave me alone and dont reply me.. my opinion! 👍

 

[Exorcet]

OK; let's raise the amount of credits to the full 20 million. Fair play for both sides. What does the honest player get for it? One (1) Ferrari 330 P4, for example. Now what does the cheater get? Every car in the game that is buyable on the current level. Very hard to deny and surely has an impact on online playing.

OK, Player B has every car. Player A only has a Ferrari P4. Now, player A goes to a race where the limits correspond to the stats of the P4. Where is the advantage?

ahh, shut up cheater defender, I dont want to waste my time with you! 👎 Cant I have my "own" Opinion. Duping is Cheating... what are you going to do with that its a fact. End of story. now leave me alone and dont reply me.. my opinion! 👍

1. "It's my opinion" is not a defense, at least not a good one

2. If someone is answering you, they're giving their own opinion

3. opinions aren't facts

 

[Ya Pops]

dishonest people using flaws - YES! (its not stupidity - you have to press SixAxis buttons at least.. )

Duping cars and smashing other drivers off the track is the same thing?

Interesting how it instantly becomes flawed or a fail when it clearly shows how the system really works for the benefit of those who do it.

OK; let's raise the amount of credits to the full 20 million. Fair play for both sides. What does the honest player get for it? One (1) Ferrari 330 P4, for example. Now what does the cheater get? Every car in the game that is buyable on the current level. Very hard to deny and surely has an impact on online playing.

So? If the room has been set up correctly, cars should be evenly matched regardless of how many are left in the garage.

when somebody else says "it takes away from my enjoyment" it isn't a good enough reason but when you say "it extends the game's life for me" it is? Your enjoyment must be much more important then the others' in that case.

Since nobody's come up with a better reason than 'They've got more cars than me.. I can't compete when the lobby rules change', I've yet to see a valid argument to support whatever it is you're trying to say.

ahh, shut up cheater defender, I dont want to waste my time with you! Cant I have my "own" Opinion. Duping is Cheating... what are you going to do with that its a fact. End of story. now leave me alone and dont reply me.. my opinion!

I was going to come up with something exceedingly witty, but I'm overcome with sadness over your plight..

 

[maxpontiac]

So I don't get it... it's wrong and cheating to dupe cars, but it's fine to rubber band grind ovals for cash?

You of all people should understand the the elitism featured here on GTPlanet. However, you do make a point.

I guess some people get irritated when you dont play the game like they do.

Or, get irritated because you like such said game and/or parts of it, and they don't.👎

 

[Tornado]

Cant I have my "own" Opinion.

Sure you can. It is also entirely possible for an opinion to be objectively wrong.
If you are saying that duping (which, at best, has an indirect effect on others online, but even that is an arguable point) is the same type of thing as punting, wallriding and various other griefer actions (where the effect is not only a direct correlation, but also purposely intended to remove other's enjoyment of the game), then yours is.