Why So Many Vettel Haters?

[Brend]

Hate is the wrong word. I am British, so support Lewis, Jenson and Paul. This means that I'd prefer them too win. He just needs to let others get close.

This. A million times this. What I wouldn't give for a Jenson, Lewis and Paul podium...

 

[corporatesteve]

actually, I believe it was because he was running in 3rd at the start of the final lap and got passed by Heidfeld, Alonso, Vettel and Kubica.

or because it was really his tires and he knew his career was on the line.... go watch the old videos of it. Wait, heres one for you:

 

[Anghammarad]

1. Webber and Vettel drive the same car yet Vettel is much faster.

That says more about Webber than Vettel.

Edit: Only a fool would deny that Vettel has taken great strides this year. It is possible that he improved more this season than last. He is without a doubt one of the very elite drivers now, a club that I would say actually has got two new members this season and now consist of four racers. I let Hamilton stay in that club because I honestly feel that it is not his racing skills that have let him down this season but rather his mind and that I think he will bounce back. Webber on the other hand has proven that he is on the same skill level as Massa (but better in traffic)

 

[hampus_dh]

Hamilton is the driver with the most raw talent on the grid.

He´s the only person on the grid where i have gotten a Senna wibe from.
But the favorite is mr. Alonso
He´s the best driver on the grid period. The most complete of them all.

Hamilton vs Vettel in the wet.

 

[Greycap]

For the above I can only quote myself from an earlier thread.

Hamilton was 20 at the time and was driving his third season in F3, Vettel was 18 and driving his first season. That might just make a difference.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

For the above I can only quote myself from an earlier thread.

Also Hamilton was driving for ASM (ART Grand Prix) one of the best teams in motorsport below F1 whilst Vettel was driving for Mucke Motorsport, a good team but nothing compared to ASM.

 

[Brend]

Hamilton is the driver with the most raw talent on the grid.

He´s the only person on the grid where i have gotten a Senna wibe from.
But the favorite is mr. Alonso
He´s the best driver on the grid period. The most complete of them all.

Hamilton vs Vettel in the wet.

Nice video, although, If I'm not mistaken Paul Di Resta has beaten the 2 of them in Formula 3.

 

[YellowG1]

Also Hamilton was driving for ASM (ART Grand Prix) one of the best teams in motorsport below F1 whilst Vettel was driving for Mucke Motorsport, a good team but nothing compared to ASM.

Couldn't the same argument be made in relation to the RB7 versus the MP4-26 and the F150, both good cars but nothing in relation to the sublime RB7?

That said, I have no opinion on Vettel. I think he's very, very talented and he seems nice and genuine, but I'd really like to see RBR, Ferrari and McLaren all on a par with each other so we can have some close, hard-fought races.

 

[Bigbazz]

That says more about Webber than Vettel.

Edit: Only a fool would deny that Vettel has taken great strides this year. It is possible that he improved more this season than last. He is without a doubt one of the very elite drivers now, a club that I would say actually has got two new members this season and now consist of four racers. I let Hamilton stay in that club because I honestly feel that it is not his racing skills that have let him down this season but rather his mind and that I think he will bounce back. Webber on the other hand has proven that he is on the same skill level as Massa (but better in traffic)

This elite club, I assume you mean Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel and Button?

 

[hampus_dh]

Nice video, although, If I'm not mistaken Paul Di Resta has beaten the 2 of them in Formula 3.

Depends on what you mean

2004 Season
Hamilton rookie year - 1 Pole - 2 fastest laps - 1 race won

2005 Season
Hamilton´s 2nd year - 13 Poles - 10 poles - 15 wins

Paul Di Resta rookie year - 3 poles - 2 Fastest laps - 0 races won

2006 Season
Paul Di Resta 2nd year - 5 poles - 1 Fastest laps - 5 races won

Sebastian Vettel rookie year - 1 poles - 5 fastest laps - 4 races won

 

[Anghammarad]

This elite club, I assume you mean Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel and Button?

Indeed.

 

[Blaze_409]

That says more about Webber than Vettel.

Is it fair for you to judge that it is webber underperforming rather than vettel overperforming? Its not fair for me to judge either that vettel is overperforming and Webber doing the average.

See there is alot more nuance to this than simply saying one guy is only faster because of his car...or that one guy is under performing....

Could it be that vettel has turned into an awesome driver while at REdBull?.....Why does his skill have to be relate to what he did or who he did or did not beat in the F3 days.....(Who ever brought that up?)..Theres a such thing as improvement you know..

Vettel,Alonso, Hamilton, (Kubica?),Schumacher,Button will all be greats..

How can anyone argue that the real test comes when "he gets into a car that isn't the fastest in the field"
1.Been there done that(Monza-Torro Rosso)
2. Well obviously you cannot win a race in a sub par car if the guy who has the fastest car(for example if Fernando Alonso) is driving flawless and winniing........How the heck is Vettel in a Williams supposed to win if someone like Fernando Alonso is driving a Red Bull?(and it isnt raining)?

Its funny how this world works.....

when Hamilton was winning they claimed he had been gifted a path to F1 by Mclaren.
When Button was winning they said it was Brawns double diffuser
When Schumacher was winning they said it was the Ferrari and lack of competition.
(off topic- when the R8 dominated in Lemans they said that it was the lack of competition)

Why do people refuse to acknowledge awesome drivers?

 

[RTSolvalou]

2011 will be remembered as a non-season, period.

 

[Blaze_409]

I doubt that Sebastien vettel gives a hoot.

 

[hampus_dh]

Is it fair for you to judge that it is webber underperforming rather than vettel overperforming? Its not fair for me to judge either that vettel is overperforming and Webber doing the average.

See there is alot more nuance to this than simply saying one guy is only faster because of his car...or that one guy is under performing....

Could it be that vettel has turned into an awesome driver while at REdBull?.....Why does his skill have to be relate to what he did or who he did or did not beat in the F3 days.....(Who ever brought that up?)..Theres a such thing as improvement you know..

Vettel,Alonso, Hamilton, (Kubica?),Schumacher,Button will all be greats..

How can anyone argue that the real test comes when "he gets into a car that isn't the fastest in the field"
1.Been there done that(Monza-Torro Rosso)
2. Well obviously you cannot win a race in a sub par car if the guy who has the fastest car(for example if Fernando Alonso) is driving flawless and winniing........How the heck is Vettel in a Williams supposed to win if someone like Fernando Alonso is driving a Red Bull?(and it isnt raining)?

Its funny how this world works.....

when Hamilton was winning they claimed he had been gifted a path to F1 by Mclaren.
When Button was winning they said it was Brawns double diffuser
When Schumacher was winning they said it was the Ferrari and lack of competition.
(off topic- when the R8 dominated in Lemans they said that it was the lack of competition)

Why do people refuse to acknowledge awesome drivers?

But is it really?`

We know the RBR is the fastest car on the grid. Logics applied would say that Webber should be 2nd in Q and in every Race.

He´s fourth. He´s under-performing like crazy.

When Audi started to dominate in Le Mans it was because of lack of competition.

1999, BMW Toyota etc all left the sport. 2000 was the year Audi started their run.

It´s way easier to win Le Mans if you have a 50% chance of doing so then say 10% chance.

 

[corporatesteve]

How can anyone argue that the real test comes when "he gets into a car that isn't the fastest in the field"
1.Been there done that(Monza-Torro Rosso)
2. Well obviously you cannot win a race in a sub par car if the guy who has the fastest car(for example if Fernando Alonso) is driving flawless and winniing........How the heck is Vettel in a Williams supposed to win if someone like Fernando Alonso is driving a Red Bull?(and it isnt raining)?

Its funny how this world works.....

when Hamilton was winning they claimed he had been gifted a path to F1 by Mclaren.
When Button was winning they said it was Brawns double diffuser
When Schumacher was winning they said it was the Ferrari and lack of competition.
(off topic- when the R8 dominated in Lemans they said that it was the lack of competition)

Why do people refuse to acknowledge awesome drivers?

Why do people refuse to acknowledge awesome drivers? Maybe because technology today is far more advanced and that engineers really do not need to rely on driver skills anymore. The FIA even banned aids back in 1994, its not like this is a recent issue. Heres some examples:

1.the Toro Rosso win was actually based on the car ( see bourdais lap time vs vettel ). Score: Car 1, Driver 0
2. Button days at Brawn. FOTA concluded the loop holes. ( Look at Mercedes GP and Button at Mclaren right now, still dominant? nooooope ). Score: Car 2, Driver 0
3. Schumacher was great, but the financial investments from the MAR plus the testing made the car unbeatable. I will agree schumacher helped the car go to its limit. Score : Car 3, Driver 1
4. Lemans is more based on the reliability of the car instead of the driver.... try keeping a race engine running for 24 hours.

Final score : car 4, driver 1.

When regulations make each car 100% the same. That is when we will see true driving skills. Untill then, it will always be about the car and how it adapts to new technology. This also applies to other aspects such as aviation.

 

[niky]

If it was all about technology, we'd have a Red Bull 1-2 every single race. That it isn't so points to the fact that some drivers are more equal than others.

This season has really been Vettel's season to shine. He has driven consistently and he has been a monster in qualifying... ekeing out that last tenth... actually... up to half-a-second... over his competitors. And they're really trying. Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso seem to be able to extract more out of their cars over one lap of qualifying than anyone else.... but Vettel seems to have that little bit extra... utilizing better one-lap tire conservation and incredible mid-lap pace.

If it were all about the car, Vettel and Webber would be tied for points, Button and Hamilton third and fourth, and the Ferraris somewhere back of Mercedes... ...but it isn't, and it isn't so.

That the car has been extremely dominant this season doesn't take away from the fact that Vettel has driven excellently and has consistently outperformed his team-mate. And it doesn't make him any less of a superstar.

Same with Michael Schumacher and Alonso. Schumacher was a ruthless, cheating arse who marginalized his team-mates and used every trick in the book and then some. But in his heyday, he was amazing to watch at the wheel, with an ability to read a car that was beyond his peers.

Alonso's Renault years were characterized by a driving style that, though it was enabled by the unique characteristics of that car, was still fascinating to watch... the sharp, incredibly aggressive and abrupt turn-in... a style which enabled him to win two championships. Then he switched cars... the McLaren was different... it didn't have the front end of the Renault. He spent half a season adjusting to it, then the second half matching the classically smooth and incredibly able Lewis Hamilton.

Now he's in a Ferrari that's horrible compared to the other two front-runners, but he's still challenging for podiums, at least at the times when his car isn't crapping out on him.

So... it's not just the car. Look at which drivers are outperforming their cars and/or their team-mates to a great degree and you'll see who the stars in F1 are. Whatever your thoughts are on the RBR, Vettel is undoubtedly one of them.

 

[Imari]

We know the RBR is the fastest car on the grid.

Do we? It was almost certainly true earlier in the season, but it's debatable at best now. RBR and McLaren have been pretty neck and neck in terms of qualifying pace the last few races.

I argue that, right now, the Red Bull and the McLaren are more or less even and it's coming down to driver skill. And that really, the Ferrari isn't as far off the pace as all their moaning would have you believe. That shows me that Vettel is an AMAZING driver, and Button and Alonso are the only ones who have their **** together enough to even think of challenging him at the moment.

 

[hampus_dh]

Yes its the absolute fastest car on the grid and have been so since the start of 2010.

I know it's two cars but the concept and design is the same.

Vettel and Webber have the best car on the grid it's as simple as that.

 

[Seismica]

Do we? It was almost certainly true earlier in the season, but it's debatable at best now. RBR and McLaren have been pretty neck and neck in terms of qualifying pace the last few races.

I argue that, right now, the Red Bull and the McLaren are more or less even and it's coming down to driver skill. And that really, the Ferrari isn't as far off the pace as all their moaning would have you believe. That shows me that Vettel is an AMAZING driver, and Button and Alonso are the only ones who have their **** together enough to even think of challenging him at the moment.

The Red Bull is still the faster package. Mclaren may have found something in qualifying but have lost out slightly on race pace. Webber is often very close behind. I think the Los MiniDrivers episode from Suyzuka captured that well, he was holding a sign saying "I was racing too" as he crossed the line.

Vettel is getting the most out of the car, but so are Button and Alonso in the races and yet Vettel is only knocked off his perch when strategy and tyre wear come into play.

Yes its the absolute fastest car on the grid and have been so since the start of 2010.

I know it's two cars but the concept and design is the same.

Vettel and Webber have the best car on the grid it's as simple as that.

It's been the fastest since the back end of 2009

 

[Alex.]

The whole discussion has become a non-starter. Every multiple world champion won at least most of their championships in the best car. Senna included, and we know how he's looked upon.

 

[hampus_dh]

The whole discussion has become a non-starter. Every multiple world champion won at least most of their championships in the best car. Senna included, and we know how he's looked upon.

But thats not really because of that though.

Senna was remembered for taking a not so good car and still managing to do really really well.

And let's not forget his rain skills.

One word: Donington.

 

[Diabolik_za]

Yes its the absolute fastest car on the grid and have been so since the start of 2010.

I know it's two cars but the concept and design is the same.

Vettel and Webber have the best car on the grid it's as simple as that.

You are really confident that it is. Why is it the absolute fastest currently? And how much faster is it than the Mclaren, absolutely?

 

[PeterJB]

You are really confident that it is. Why is it the absolute fastest currently? And how much faster is it than the Mclaren, absolutely?

Fast enough for 16 Pole positions, 11 race victories, and 9 fastest laps.

 

[Diabolik_za]

Fast enough for 16 Pole positions, 11 race victories, and 9 fastest laps.

I'm arguing current RB vs current Mclaren. RB was the better car at the start of the season, but it seems like that gap has diminished.

Also, the above statistics relate to Vettel, so it doesn't help to establish a baseline for performance of the two cars.

 

[Hun200kmh]

There's no arguing the RBR is the best car. And there's no arguing that all great champions had the best cars or very close to best cars in all their WDCs. (Keke Rosberg's WDC in a total underdog was different because the guys with the best car got killed (Villeneuve) or irreversebly injured (Pironi).

But indeed the drivers are still the ones making it. Vettel extracted from the RBR all it had to give. As did Button from his McLaren, and Alonso from his Ferrari. Their teammates failed in doing it. That tells a story, I think.

 

[PeterJB]

I'm arguing current RB vs current Mclaren. RB was the better car at the start of the season, but it seems like that gap has diminished.

Also, the above statistics relate to Vettel, so it doesn't help to establish a baseline for performance of the two cars.

Those are the combined statistics of Webber and Vettel.

Yes their lead has diminished somewhat, but they're still basically untouchable.

 

[Diabolik_za]

Those are the combined statistics of Webber and Vettel.

Yes their lead has diminished somewhat, but they're still basically untouchable.

I was incorrect regarding the statistics. Thanks for pointing it out.

If Redbull was currently untouchable, then the last few races would have been Redbull 1-2s finishes. Its been far from that, in both qualifying and race day.

 

[Brend]

Depends on what you mean

2004 Season
Hamilton rookie year - 1 Pole - 2 fastest laps - 1 race won

2005 Season
Hamilton´s 2nd year - 13 Poles - 10 poles - 15 wins

Paul Di Resta rookie year - 3 poles - 2 Fastest laps - 0 races won

2006 Season
Paul Di Resta 2nd year - 5 poles - 1 Fastest laps - 5 races won

Sebastian Vettel rookie year - 1 poles - 5 fastest laps - 4 races won

I did indeed mean the 2006 season but overall I take back my statement. 👍

 

[hampus_dh]

You are really confident that it is. Why is it the absolute fastest currently? And how much faster is it than the Mclaren, absolutely?

Have you watched this and the last season in F1 and have you taken a deeper look at the RB-series mainly the two latest versions?

They are perfection, Newey has done it again and he is still one step ahead in aero.

2012 might be different and im hoping for a three way battle next year in the same sense as Ferrari BMW and Mclaren were in 2008.

07 Mclaren and Ferrari were neck and neck.

2010 RBR in it´s own league.
2011 RBR still in it´s own league.

Should also touch on the subject many make that for Vettel it looks so easy.
That´s because the car does exactly what he wants. Look at Webber aswell, his car is not fighting him one bit.

Vettel is a great hotlapper, uses all of the road and then some etc compared to Webber but the dynamics of the car is the same. The car is made to lead the race. When they get behind like in Germany or Webber now in India.

Front wing loses downforce and it´s extremely hard for them to pass the Macca or Rari.

2011 Q times, RBR to nearest competitor.

Australia - 0.778
Malaysia - 0.104
China - 0.715
Turkey - 0.525
Spain - 0.980 (Vettel´s KERS failed but he was on the run to beat Webber)
Monaco - 0.441
Canada - 0.185
Europe - 0.405
GreatB - 0.117
German - 0.055
Hungary - 0.163
SPA - 0.432
Italy - 0.450
Singap - 0.423
Japan - 0.009
Korea + 0.222
India - 0.296 (Vettel backed of the last run that was quicker then the pole time)
Abu D
Brazil

4 tenths might not sound much but within the top teams it´s an eternity.