2008 Brazilian Grand Prix

  • Thread starter PeterJB
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I never thought I would have so much respect for a Ferrari driver but I hope the other drivers will follow Massa's example.

Such a good sportsman 👍
 
We know that all the drivers are brutally quick, but I think it will be Kimi vs. Massa vs. Lewis vs. possibly Vettel(if the car is good enough)
 
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Alex.
We know that all the drivers are brutally quick, but I think it will be Kimi vs. Massa vs. Lewis vs. possibly Vettel(if the car is good enough)
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I disagree, I predict it will be Kubica vs. Heidfeld vs. whoever is at Honda vs. Alonso.
 
Ardius
I disagree, I predict it will be Kubica vs. Heidfeld vs. whoever is at Honda vs. Alonso.
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What makes you think Hamilton won't be up there challenging again. his first two season in F1 and he could have won them both. On that evidence I'd say he's a safe bet for title contender next year.
 
I believe Ardius is in reference of car performance rather than driver performance.

[edit]Tree'd
 
Dave A
What makes you think Hamilton won't be up there challenging again. his first two season in F1 and he could have won them both. On that evidence I'd say he's a safe bet for title contender next year.
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This:

ExigeEvan
It's no insult to Hamilton, Dai. People just don't believe that Mclaren will have a competitive car next year.
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I have no doubts of Hamilton's ability. I do have doubts about McLaren's focus, especially when the afforementioned teams have been quite vocal about starting on their 2009 cars very early (except for maybe Renault, though I think they've started earlier than Ferrari or McLaren have).
And also, both Honda and BMW Sauber have been noted to have highly advanced KERS systems, whereas we haven't heard much about McLarens and we've heard Ferrari's is not so great.
 
nissan tuner
I never thought I would have so much respect for a Ferrari driver but I hope the other drivers will follow Massa's example.

Such a good sportsman 👍
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👍 Well said that man...

Only_in_f1
Funny as it is, it seems a shame that Glock has become a scapegoat.
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Indeed... poor guy must be wondering what happened! Not to be too serious, but I do feel that the conspiracy theorists are being extremely harsh on Glock... they are basically insinuating that he is a race fixer and a non-professional... highly insulting and undeserved. That said, Glock has more to worry about than that... I'm half-expecting that James Allen might want to have his babies now :ill:
 
Ant Hamilton wanted to kiss him, poor Timo.

On a serious note, the fact the link earlier about Massa's brother warning the Toyota team, its nice of him, but a sorry state of affairs to be in. Ok I get the passion of the Brazilians and that's what makes them such great people and fans of F1, but something's just can't be helped.

If Glock had followed the trend he wouldn't have been there to be passed anyway. And I don't think Vettel would have had to buy a drink in Brazil again.
 
Respect to Massa for that. Brave face, not a single blame, and such sportsmanship are pretty rare these days. And Alonso too, did perhaps a first step to a truce?



Also, checking next year's chances of each team:

McLaren have run with KERS, and while they did put everything they could into improving the MP-4/23 for Hamilton's title fight, they also had a '09 model running for a while. Ferrari have tasked Dallara with the F2009's development since the start of the season, and took over themselves a couple of races ago - yet Domenicali complained about KERS so much that the FIA agreed to standartise it for 2010. BMW Sauber appear to be going strong - first team to test with KERS, and stopped developing parts for the F1.08 a couple of races ago, focusing instead on the F1.09 (launch date: 20th January).

Renault are an unknown quantity, without any statements, rumors or tests with KERS, a mixed bit of late development on the R28 apparently freezing the early start on the R29. Toyota, meanwhile, admitted to struggles with KERS, and even confirmed in a FOTA meeting that they will line up at Melbourne without it. Red Bull (in English and Italian) have begun very early with the RB5/STR4's aerodynamic package, and also have "the Newey bonus", but KERS-status is unknown. Williams and Honda, early failers of this season, have both done tests with KERS installed - Williams even with a '09-spec rear wing - and are hoping to capitalize on the rulechanges and early focus. Williams' unique KERS system and excellent mechanical grip from this year may come in handy. As for Force India.. Gascoyne is an excellent designer with some nifty innovations, and they too switched to '09 plans early - but who knows?
 
Ah, well that changes things a bit.
So, according to that we have:

Teams likely to have an advantage with KERS:
McLaren
Honda
Williams
BMW Sauber

Teams likely to fall in the field, depending on how effective KERS is:
Ferrari
Toyota
Toro Rosso
Red Bull

Unknown:
Renault
Force India (though I'd promote them to "likely advantage" if they secure this McLaren Mercedes deal).
 
Ardius
Ah, well that changes things a bit.
So, according to that we have:

Teams likely to have an advantage with KERS:
McLaren
Honda
Williams
BMW Sauber

Teams likely to fall in the field, depending on how effective KERS is:
Ferrari
Toyota
Toro Rosso
Red Bull

Unknown:
Renault
Force India (though I'd promote them to "likely advantage" if they secure this McLaren Mercedes deal).
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I would certainly agree on that one, particularly as the whole 'customer car' side of things is still a possibility....

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/10/23/force-india-negotiates-deal-to-buy-cars-from-mclaren/

.....given that next years Force India could well be pretty much the same car as the McLaren.


I also wonder how Alonso will react if the Renault starts another season with a car that is simply uncompetitive. Renault have always made a big deal of being able to compete with the major teams on a faction of the budget, but given the level of investment required in getting a car to make the most of the 2009 changes I do worry about that kind of approach.

Personally I love the way that major rule changes can level the playing field to a degree, personally I want as many competitive teams on the grid as we can get, that way lies better racing for the fans.


Regards

Scaff
 
I can't think of a season in which 6 drivers (3 teams) were fighting for the championship, so i don't expect huge changes next year. The best scenario possible is to have Hamilton, Massa, Kimi, Kubica and Alonso fighting for the title next year. I don't think Honda can pull such a huge miracle in one year.

And also, Ferrari won't just drop like a rock, speacially considering the budget they have.
 
At a guess, I'd look for Honda to be potentially very fast but have big setup and reliability issues. Their new car must be basically starting from scratch (even more than all the cars will be with the new rules) and they've really never built a truly competitive F1 car (2006 was their closest, but still not great); I just don't see them putting out the whole package in one year. All the effort they've been putting in this year should give them a shot at making it fast, but I think they'll need a few steady years to get setups and reliability sorted. So I could see them winning a couple of races but also having a lot of DNFs.

And I have to echo the respect for Massa. He definitely showed himself to have a ton of class over the last few days.
 
I've been wondering... should we change the title of this thread to "2008 Brazilian Grand Prix - Glock was on slicks in the rain" so people stop posting that silly conspiracy theory? :lol:

The KERS is a whole new kettle of fish... I dislike it, in principle, because more complication equals more points of failure. I kind of like the idea of a mechanical system better... possibly less weight than the electrical one... I would like to see what it does to fuel consumption first, before making up my mind about whether it's worth it or not.
 
Congrats to Hamilton on winning the championship. Also Vettel and Massa aslo had great races. I feel sorry for Massa he did everything he could but he can up a little short.
 
Metar
Also, checking next year's chances of each team:

McLaren have run with KERS, and while they did put everything they could into improving the MP-4/23 for Hamilton's title fight, they also had a '09 model running for a while. Ferrari have tasked Dallara with the F2009's development since the start of the season, and took over themselves a couple of races ago - yet Domenicali complained about KERS so much that the FIA agreed to standartise it for 2010. BMW Sauber appear to be going strong - first team to test with KERS, and stopped developing parts for the F1.08 a couple of races ago, focusing instead on the F1.09 (launch date: 20th January).

Renault are an unknown quantity, without any statements, rumors or tests with KERS, a mixed bit of late development on the R28 apparently freezing the early start on the R29. Toyota, meanwhile, admitted to struggles with KERS, and even confirmed in a FOTA meeting that they will line up at Melbourne without it. Red Bull (in English and Italian) have begun very early with the RB5/STR4's aerodynamic package, and also have "the Newey bonus", but KERS-status is unknown. Williams and Honda, early failers of this season, have both done tests with KERS installed - Williams even with a '09-spec rear wing - and are hoping to capitalize on the rulechanges and early focus. Williams' unique KERS system and excellent mechanical grip from this year may come in handy. As for Force India.. Gascoyne is an excellent designer with some nifty innovations, and they too switched to '09 plans early - but who knows?
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Last time I checked up on KERS, Honda had the most developed unit - I'm gathering Ross Brawn's influence saw the team start their 1009 challenger very early - and McLaren's unit was reportedly twenty kilograms heavier than they wanted it to be, and were having trouble getting the weight down (but confident it could happen).

That was several weeks ago, mind you. Maybe seven days after BMW worked out why their engineer got shocked during a KERS test.
Robin.
Hmm, I guess im one of these 'consipary theorists' then, I don't believe that Glock would have lost so much speed on the 2nd to last corner. You just can't write that stuff... Oh well if he starts buying expensive houses and yatchs next week you will know what happened! :sly: He didnt even try to block Lewis off.
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Juncao - where the pass happened - is possibly the most difficult corner at Interlagos. It's uphill, it's an odd shape, and in watching hotlaps, the drivers take something of an unconventional line into and through it. Not only that, but your exit speed dictates your pace up to Aquinabulas (sp?) and the Start/Finish Straight.
Bram Turismo
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here?

Penalize Hamilton? What did he do wrong? I didn't know drivers were being penalized for driving the perfect race. Penalize Glock? What did he do wrong? Having the balls for keeping the car out, and nearly clinching a 4th place from 10th starting place? :dunce:
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I wasn't saying they should penalise Hamilton, I'm saying that if they decided to take action over the incident - ie Glock fixing the championship so that Hamilton would win by moving over - the FIA couldn't do anything about it. They can't penalise him, because that would just move him further down the order. And they can't exactly give him points so that they undid Glock's loss of position, because that would be unfair and would basically be rewarding him for doing something wrong. And they can't penalise Hamilton to move him back down behind Glock, because Hamilton didn't do anything wrong.

I was basically saying that if it were found that Glock had moved over to let Hamilton win the championship, there'd be nothing the FIA could do about it, unless it was found that McLaren conspired with Toyota to have Hamilton win.
 
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I don't believe even for a second on a fixed move by Glock, but i understand why people are angry. Even with the tire situation, the normal move was for Glock to hold his line against Vettel and Hamilton, not just stand in the corner like he was being lapped.

That's where people are picking on it, IMO.

Given the situations, talking about a fix is loser talk, just like i read in a spanish newspaper today. The only thing that can be said is that Glock did nothing to defend his position.
 
Do you race?
Juncao - where the pass happened - is possibly the most difficult corner at Interlagos. It's uphill, it's an odd shape, and in watching hotlaps, the drivers take something of an unconventional line into and through it. Not only that, but your exit speed dictates your pace up to Aquinabulas (sp?) and the Start/Finish Straight.
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That way well be true but the irony of Glock not being able to cope with it on the last lap I cant get away from!... sure it was raining on the last lap but it was also raining for the few laps before that... didnt seem to be struggling then. Its almost unbelievable what I saw on TV and thats why I refuse to believe it was a simple as the water stopped Glock's car.

fasj6418
I don't believe even for a second on a fixed move by Glock, but i understand why people are angry. Even with the tire situation, the normal move was for Glock to hold his line against Vettel and Hamilton, not just stand in the corner like he was being lapped.
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I agree, water or not it does not effect Glocks ability to try and block a driver challenging for the position. I guess he didnt want to be the guy Hamilton rear ended into and then the whole of the UK would be at his neck. It guess was easier to let him through then potentially cause some accident.

Robin
 
Robin.
That way well be true but the irony of Glock not being able to cope with it on the last lap I cant get away from!... sure it was raining on the last lap but it was also raining for the few laps before that... didnt seem to be struggling then. Its almost unbelievable what I saw on TV and thats why I refuse to believe it was a simple as the water stopped Glock's car.
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Glock was running the control tyre, wasn't he? It ight have grooves, but they're completely ineffective at dispelling water the way wets do. The tread on a wet tyre is specially designed to channel water away, so without it, Glock was essentially driving on the slick covering above the actual surface of the track.

Robin.
I guess he didnt want to be the guy Hamilton rear ended into and then the whole of the UK would be at his neck. It guess was easier to let him through then potentially cause some accident.

Robin
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Do you think England would love or hate James Allen all the more if he got there first?
 
Robin.
That way well be true but the irony of Glock not being able to cope with it on the last lap I cant get away from!... sure it was raining on the last lap but it was also raining for the few laps before that... didnt seem to be struggling then. Its almost unbelievable what I saw on TV and thats why I refuse to believe it was a simple as the water stopped Glock's car.



I agree, water or not it does not effect Glocks ability to try and block a driver challenging for the position. I guess he didnt want to be the guy Hamilton rear ended into and then the whole of the UK would be at his neck. It guess was easier to let him through then potentially cause some accident.

Robin
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Have you ever tried to drive a car on sheet ice or control a car that is aqua-planing?

If you had you would now exactly how difficult it is to simply keep driving in a straight line, let alone get around a corner, let alone then try and actively stop a car behind you (that is not suffering from the same problem) getting past.

Glock's single aim on that corner was keeping the car on the road and finishing in the points, its doubtful he was even able to see the cars behind him (spray and useless F1 wing mirrors help see to that) clearly and even if he had blocking them would have been next to impossible.

As 'do you race?' has already mentioned, the corner in question (Juncao) is well know as a very trick corner and one that induces massive understeer if you loose grip.

I suggest that if you ever get the chance, go and spend some time on a skid-pan, that should give you a rough idea of what these kind of tyres are like in the wet.

No grip = crap laptimes and a battle simply to keep a car on the track, let alone try and actively block someone else.


Regards

Scaff
 

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