2010 Formula One Turkish Grand Prix

[Uodnelome]

Well, that was about as proper a Grand Prix as one could ask for. Measured against the season opener in Bahrain, and without any significant rain or stewards calls, some solid close racing (and incidents) leaves plenty to digest in the aftermath. McLaren and RBR streaking away from the field for the first significant portion of the race was pretty captivating stuff !! As for VET v. WEB, the focal point of discussion until pre-race build-up around Montreal begins, I offer these cautious thoughts...

Initially I felt some ambiguity over (what I feel) is Webber's drift to the inside approaching the braking zone -- was it a block or perhaps room for Vettel to overtake? I contend Mark moves to the left/inside just fractionally before Vettel commits to attempting the move there as well. Vettel's move is almost as if he acted to sell Webber on a dummy, perhaps effectively counteracted by Mark acting first to block left. Again, cautious offerings...I await to see how and where I am wrong.

Ultimately it would be most interesting to know just what each was thinking on the run up through the Faux Rouge into Turn 12 -- or Hamilton as it unfolded before him. I've read it suggested his subdued manner in the interview room was a result of being gifted the win due to the folly of the pair in front. Others of course, the later battle between him and Button, but that's a whole other discussion Toss into the mix statements about who was on fuel-saving strategies and since when in the race, and there's a situation where I don't want to be pinned down to making any definite judgments on!

Interesting that Hamilton's slow pit stop put him behind Vettel. A truly daft idea would suggest McLaren's brain trust deliberately slowed the tire change on the rear, setting loose Vettel on Webber...but that is a bit out there. I do, however genuinely wonder what the podium would have looked like should Vettel need to first pass Hamilton to get at Webber. What is certain is that I do not envy those within the RBR management playing damage control not only on the PR front, but within the team. How the dynamic between the two plays out given Vettel's bad luck in the early going, and Webber's dominant form in Monaco and Spain will be something to watch. Or it might pass uneventfully come the conclusion of Canada. For the sake of the journos generating more words on it, they'll be pulling for the former i'm sure.

Bigger picture, is this just a hiccup for RBR or McLaren's resurgence to the top? The way the Turkish Grand Prix has evened the race for both titles is a welcome development.

 

[hornet_burnout]

Vettel was going to do a "Button" on Weber (see how Button overtook first Schumacher and then Hamilton and you'll understand) but he anticipated and he starts defendeing the right side up the hill, which would give him the better braking position for T12 and the inside for T13. That's what leaves Vettel the narrow and left side.

He outsmarted Vettel and left him the worst part of the track and Vettel cracked under pressure. And that is why he lost is temper to teammate and press.

Webber was never incorrect to Vettel, they were racing for position, and for the lead.

 

[Anghammarad]

I'm really warming up towards Button. Always thought of him as a second tier driver who just happened to be in the right car last year but he is really showing intelligence as well as speed and good passing ability now. Hamilton may be more spectacular and a fiercer racer but Button uses his head which is something I've always liked.

 

[Famine]

Button's always been a smart driver, but he's also got the car control - more specifically the ability to control the car right up to the limit, rather than the ability to push it past and gather it up again - to be a tactician's dream. He'll give you your top lap time, he'll give you your fuel/tyre-saving, he won't destroy your strategy by behaving rashly and recklessly in the pursuit of another 1/10th. Stick him in a top car and you have a top driver - but he won't ever push a car faster than it has any right to go.

I was actually pleasantly surprised by Hamilton's role in their wheel-to-wheel, half-lap tussle. Hamilton is prone to hanging people out to dry and overdriving, yet was every bit as controlled and careful as Button.

 

[easyasashii]

IMO, in the Webber / Vettel incident, I would say it was Vettel's fault only because his acts went too far from what he intended to do...

What I'm saying is I'm sure he didn't touched Webber on purpose ! They were racing/fighting for the position and points, Vettel saw he had a chance to overtake Webber, went for it and managed to have a 2/3 car ahead. He saw the corner coming, knew that that if Webber wouldn't move he would have to take the inside line and thus have to brake on a dirty tarmac -make it more difficult for him but not impossible -.

Consequently, seeing he still had the time to go for the right and take the outside line, he might have wanted Webber to let him go on the right so made a move to show him what he wanted to do but at 280/300 km/h, turned a hair too much and touched Webber...

I sincerely don't think he touched him on purpose : someone who's racing and fighting for points won't jeopardize that by doing something that's stupid, he knew that touching would have meant losing everything... so between 100% sure of losing everything and trying the difficult inside line and still have the chance to stay on track and might even overtake Webber, he would have taken the inside line ! That's why I think, seeing that he still had time to go on the right, he tried to make Webber let him go for it but unfortunately turned too much !

However, I guess that as teammates Vettel assumed Webber would have let him go for a safer line but knew he had to show him... So I think, as teammates, it was Webber's fault, excellent defensive strategy as a racer but, as a teammate, after showing Vettel he could have given him a very bad spot, he should have let him a better line... For the RBR team, it would have been better !

But I can't blame him either because, he had an excellent defensive strategy, there is nothing to say about that, and who knows that he wouldn't have let Vettel go for the right if Vettel hadn't turned too much ??? He might even thought Vettel was going for the inside line and was caught by surprise !

To sum up, too much pressure and tension between them, a half a second decision, too much steering at 280-300 km/h... Vettel was just unlucky enough to turn a little bit too much...

We all experienced it with GT !!!

That's my opinion !

 

[hornet_burnout]

Not on purpose obviously, but it's his mistake or bad luck as you say.
Vettel should man up and acknowledge that and not try to lay it all on his team-mate.

 

[easyasashii]

That's exactly what I'm saying :

IMO, in the Webber / Vettel incident, I would say it was Vettel's fault only because his acts went too far from what he intended to do...

Just bad luck, not intentional ! If they weren't teammates, I would say he's terribly stupid for trying to go for the right but as teammates... Not sure... they can race against each other but I think they also have to make sure both cars will go on podium... making Vettel go for the inside line does give him a chance not be able to brake enough and go straight in the gravels... it was a 50/50 chance for vettel on the left, more safe for both cars on the right... But still Vettel mistake : not enough control of his car !

Well, next episode at Montréal !

 

[waggles]

I'm going to post some screencaps here-big images, watch out. They are not mine-Ifound them on another forum. They just prove Webber's innocence.

This clearly shows Mark steering right-trying to give Seb more room, as he is moving over i.e. avoiding the collision.

This shows Seb steering right-not necessary at all.

These frames are from about 0.5 seconds apart, overlayed at 50% opacity, you can see Webber's nose is still pointing the same direction, Vettel's is pointing more towards Webber, just before Vettel hit Webber.

Pretty conclusive really.

 

[beau99]

After this race, I remain a Vettel fan.

No, he shouldn't have turned into Webber, but Vettel was clearly faster and Webber should've gave him room. The end.

 

[Famine]

After this race, I remain a Vettel fan.

No, he shouldn't have turned into Webber, but Vettel was clearly faster and Webber should've gave him room. The end.

There was enough room for Vettel to get alongside and slightly in front and the track didn't narrow in any way - nor did Webber steer towards the left to narrow the gap. Vettel had the room and screwed it up. The end.

 

[waggles]

Just because someone's faster, doesn't mean they should have the red carpet laid out for them in order to pass.

Ever heard of the concept of defense?

This doesn't reference you, by the way, Famine.

 

[Seismica]

I find it difficult to comprehend how people are still saying it is Webber's fault, when there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

The discussion about Schumacher vs Alonso at Monaco was fairly contructive, but this discussion is just plain stupid. It was Vettel's fault.

 

[725]

Its quite odd, when you guys say Webber should have given more room, you mean he should have slowed down to let Vettel pass? Button and Hamilton certainly didn't give each other more room and they didn't crash. They just showed how its done, excellent from the both of them

I feel sorry for Webber he has been so dominant I hope he continues his excellent form in Canada.

 

[Dan_]

I find it difficult to comprehend how people are still saying it is Webber's fault, when there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

The discussion about Schumacher vs Alonso at Monaco was fairly contructive, but this discussion is just plain stupid. It was Vettel's fault.

This is crystal clear, however I just read about one interesting fact: ( I can't find a like for the article in English )

1 - Webber pushed very hard at the start of the race, at this point, Vettel was saving fuel.

2 - At the moment of Vettel's overtake attempt, Webber was saving fuel and engine (shifting earlier), because RBR engineers figured out that his car was too thirsty and could start losing power at a late stage of the race, which would lead Hamilton to get them with real possibilities of overtaking, since McLarens are faster than RBRs on the straights.

3 - Vettel was given order to overtake Webber, the order came from his engineer, and Webber's engineer wasn't aware of that same order, he demanded Webber to keep saving fuel and engine. Then everything happened.

The article, states that it is a attempt to chill things out, and probably a not 100% accurate version of the facts. Even so, no matter if Vettel has received order to overtake Webber, he did it wrong. Webber adopted a defensive and clean line, he left room for Vettel in the straight, however he got the best line, and maybe Vettel would miss the apropriate braking spot and corner entry location, hence staying behind Webber's car. I'm not trying to be an idiot, but this is so obvious that is completely dumb to keep further discussing on the fact. Vettel is guilty, period.

 

[Ardius]

I feel more sorry for Webber being in this team right now, as it appears to be against him. Horner initially placed the blame squarely at Webber's door, and Red Bull's motorsports man, Helmut Marko is still blaming Webber. The stupid thing isn't that they are blaming Webber for this incident, but that they are blaming a driver at all. A wiser team might have refused to comment or lay blame like that, but as it is, they have effectively shown they don't even want to discuss, just blame.
It says a lot about what they were planning in the laps preceeding the incident, especially when BBC's Ted Kravitz revealed the strange differences in performance between Vettel and Webber. Talk of Webber being told to turn his engine down and Vettel not being told to or being told to turn his up were discussed, Red Bull wanting Webber to let Vettel past for the lead.

The daft thing is, Red Bull didn't have anything like a safe margin in that race and they were always fighting the McLarens, Helmut Marko says Vettel couldn't have stopped Hamilton unless he got past Webber - is that suggesting Webber is better at stopping Lewis or that he is expendable?
The words "dig deeper" from Webber, conflicting explanations from Red Bull and the very clear pro-Vettel comments from Marko don't inspire a great deal of faith in Red Bull to get behind Mark in this championship fight.

Of course, if they want the constructors crown, they will have to back Webber at some point. I have to say with this one incident and all this PR rubbish from Red Bull, I'm quickly switching to supporting Mark for the WDC just to show them up.
In an ideal world, Red Bull would have passed it off as a "racing incident" to the press, said they would bang their drivers heads together and nothing more. They cannot go around visibly supporting one driver over the other - do they want to cause more incidents in future? Now Webber will feel he needs to really pull out the stops to beat Vettel and every little mistake and reliability issue will be closely analysed and criticised in case it is "team orders" or favourability of one driver.
The thing that could save this is if Vettel came out and held his hands up, Red Bull management would still look stupid but the atmosphere in the team may be a bit better if Vettel tries to work with Webber rather than continue arguments.

Imagine the storm that would be caused if McLaren came out and said they are supporting Jenson and Lewis is to blame for future incidents? Or if Ferrari did the same with Felipe or Fernando? The teams want to keep both drivers happy, not play a blame game.

 

[Seismica]

Just to add to what Ardius said, it's notable that Webber was leading Vettel for most of last year's championship aswell. It was the last 4-5 races that Vettel started to take the lead in the team and catch Button.

 

[easyasashii]

There was enough room for Vettel to get alongside and slightly in front and the track didn't narrow in any way - nor did Webber steer towards the left to narrow the gap. Vettel had the room and screwed it up. The end.

I do understand what you're saying Famine, and yes it was Vettel's fault because he didn't have enough control of the situation/car. Speaking frankly, if I were Webber I would have done the same : you want to play ? ok ! Let's play !

However, I still can't blame Vettel for trying to go on the right and assume his teammate will let him go for the right and or was already behind... I think Vettel might have been overconfident as a teammate and Webber more a racer than a teammate... However, everyone knows that at 280-300 km/h, you don't have the time to think so maybe Vettel lost control of the situation for 1 second and the incident....

Just because someone's faster, doesn't mean they should have the red carpet laid out for them in order to pass.

Ever heard of the concept of defense?

This doesn't reference you, by the way, Famine.

Defense, yes I understand as a racer but as a teammate I have doubts... It's like in a football/soccer game you and I were in the same team, you're ahead of me, the ball is on our right, if you catch it you'll score and if I catch it I'll score. What would you think if I don't let you go for the ball whereas you're ahead of me and because of me you have a 50/50 chance to go out the field ?

It is just that I can understand why some blame Webber for being more a racer than a teammate in that case -maybe he didn't have the time to prove the opposite- and why some -as I do- think it was Vettel fault (for being overconfident and losing the control of the situation and car).

 

[hornet_burnout]

After this race, I remain a Vettel fan.

No, he shouldn't have turned into Webber, but Vettel was clearly faster and Webber should've gave him room. The end.

Agree with what you say and respect you're a Vettel fan, except this: "Webber should've gave him room"

1st - He did (I said it before, and is well illustrated in the previous page by Waggles)
2nd - He didn't have to.

 

[Ardius]

You can't expect a competitor who is fighting for a championship to let another past easy just because they drive for the same team. Its the difference between being a number 1 and a number 2 in a team - if he lets Vettel through, yes hes being a teamplayer and securing his place at Red Bull perhaps but he is just residing himself to a life as a number 2. A number 1 goes for the win, he doesn't make it easy for teammates and the first person you want to beat is your teammate.

Vettel certainly didn't make it easy for Mark either.

Both drivers were level on points in the race, that overtaking move was the difference between leading the championship and running 2nd. If you were Mark, would you really just let Seb through?

 

[easyasashii]

If you were Mark, would you really just let Seb through?

Hell no !!!

I was just trying to understand why people tend to say Webber wasn't 100% innocent in this incident, and I think they have a point... But I would say it was 90% Vettel's fault and 10% Webber !

 

[Ardius]

I don't think anyone has said its 100% Vettel's fault, but its certainly more Vettel's side than Webbers. Webber's actions were a factor, but he shares little of the blame certainly.

 

[easyasashii]

Well, sorry if I got it wrong Famine , if I understand what you say : it was Vettel's fault because he should have fought for it, and go for the inside line. The fact that he chose to go on the right to have the outside and safest line by assuming, because they're teammates, that Webber should let him do so, was his mistake, so 100 % ???

EDIT : I've just convinced myself !!!

 

[waggles]

Well, sorry if I got it wrong Famine , if I understand what you say : it was Vettel's fault because he should have fought for it, and go for the inside line. The fact that he chose to go on the right to have the outside and safer line by assuming, because their teammates, that Webber should let him do, was his mistake so 100 % ???

EDIT : I've just convinced myself !!!

Very good-it's a sign of maturity.

I think Vettel's issue is like a kid playing soccer with an open goal-he'll probably miss, because his head's spinning, and thinking about the celebration beforehand, and not concentrating on what needs to be done.

Vettel is the same-far, far too eager to demonstrate to Mark that he was ahead.

Also similar to a kid, he goes and blames everyone else for it, and then has daddy (Dr Marko) aid him, even though they're clearly in the wrong.

 

[Famine]

Vettel went for the inside, to Webber's left...

All Webber did wrong was get a poor run through the preceding corner. He clearly knew it because he put his car in the middle of the track - which is the basics of defending your position. It forces anyone who'd try to pass you to pick a suboptimal line - they either go on the racing line to the outside and risk trying to turn into the corner with you sitting on the apex, or they go to the inside and hope to outbrake you and risk you ducking under them on corner exit and you waste your time.

At that point, every decision was Vettel's. Webber was driving in a straight line down the centre of the track. Vettel chose to go left and outbrake - which is what any racing driver will do (passing round the outside requires huge cojones and more than a little faith) - and Vettel chose to steer his car to the right into a teammate he hadn't fully passed yet. He didn't crash into Webber on purpose, but the situation was entirely in his hands and he screwed it up.


Four weeks ago we were laughing at Jaime Alguersuari who lapped Karum Chandhok and scythed straight across the front of him having not fully passed him - ending Chandhok's race. Vettel did the exact same thing, only on a teammate and at 180mph - and only ended his own race.

 

[hornet_burnout]

And to mess things up even more (been saving this one...), what if it was the other way around?

What if Webber was behind and had gone for it? Would Vettel yield? Hell no...
What if Webber made the same mistake? He'd been crucified by everyone for turning into his team-mate.

 

[easyasashii]

Very good-it's a sign of maturity.

Nope, trying to understand other people's opinions is a sign of maturity !

Lucky me, it looks like I'm not the only pro-Webber here 👍 ! As I said :

Speaking frankly, if I were Webber I would have done the same : you want to play ? ok ! Let's play !

Vettel went for the inside, to Webber's left...

Yep... true ! Damn, more difficult not to see the 100% now...

 

[Seismica]

(passing round the outside requires huge cojones)

Four weeks ago we were laughing at Jaime Alguersuari who lapped Karum Chandhok and scythed straight across the front of him having not fully passed him - ending Chandhok's race. Vettel did the exact same thing, only on a teammate and at 180mph - and only ended his own race.

That's true If Vettel had escaped from the incident unscathed he would have almost certainly got a drive through penalty.

 

[Louie_Schumii]

It isn't Formula One without the drama and contoversy is it

 

[Famine]

Seismica - That's how you can spot the World Champion. They will go round the outside if they feel like it.

I want to be fair to Vettel here. He went for a clear gap. He wouldn't be a racing driver if he'd just sat there, teammate or not. He went for the safer inside and he knew that Webber wouldn't squeeze him (teammate or not, it's a real bastard who'll squeeze another driver out at that speed). If he'd only kept the steering wheel pointing at the bottom of the hill, it'd have been 50:50 as to who'd come out ahead after the corner, but he was already ahead and Webber would have needed to outbrake him - or nip wide at the last instant, apex it and duck under as Vettel bogged on exit.

But he didn't. He turned into the car right next to him. Whatever the circumstances that lead up to it and the intentions, Vettel's input and Vettel's input alone caused a crash which, luckily, caused no injury and only ended his own race.

 

[Ardius]

It isn't Formula One without the drama and contoversy is it

Nope, and think how much it adds to the excitement at the next race and the championship - will Webber still lead races? Will Vettel make more mistakes? Are Red Bull team orders going to really come out?
All I can say is "finally!", it was getting a bit dull at the top with teams just racing and winning and no friction between teammates. We were having to make a big deal out of nothing with Alonso & Massa and Schumacher & Rosberg!