2010 Formula One Turkish Grand Prix

[hornet_burnout]

From Webber on board you see that when Vettel is bedside him, Webber makes (very) small movements to the right with the wheel. He does give him (very little) more room than when it started, but he does. Vettel just assumes he's gone.

And I don't think Vettel stalled it (correction, I think the wheel RPM leds all flashing means he did), as when it was back moving forward, the car was not just moving on momentum. And when Vettel climbs out and looks at that car he seems to look at it as "this isn't that badly damaged after all".

Don't think he would have made it to the pits, but he sure didn't even think of it, he was too busy blaming Webber.


Another thing:
Webber is being criticized for not making it easy on his teammate. Well how about the other way around? Vettel did not give his teammate the benefit of the doubt. He immediately starts to complain while still spinning, calls him crazy to the cameras, and says it's all his fault on the interviews.

Racing incidents like this will always happen... it's just his attitude I don't like. He should acknowledge some responsibility on it.

 

[Robin]

I was really worried that if both of them had wiped out in the same spot (instead of Mark being able to continue) there would have been a massive fight. Then we would have known how they really felt about it all!

Robin.

 

[PeterJB]

A Red Bull mechanic appeared to head-butt a presenter on Vettel's way into the motor home, to which Vettel said something probably rude to them!

 

[hornet_burnout]

A Red Bull mechanic appeared to head-butt a presenter on Vettel's way into the motor home, to which Vettel said something probably rude to them!

Yes, whatever Vettel said was probably insulting, and unrelated to the incident as the reporter almost grabbed him to get some satisfaction, and it looked personal.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Wacky idea: after the accident, Red Bull decided to start manipulating everything by setting up a supposed rift between their drivers to lure everyone into a false sense of security ahead of the team's next round of upgrades.

 

[hornet_burnout]

Wacky idea: after the accident, Red Bull decided to start manipulating everything by setting up a supposed rift between their drivers to lure everyone into a false sense of security ahead of the team's next round of upgrades.

LOL 👍

Hey, it as wacky as the theories that the little fight between Button and Hamilton was just for show.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

It's exactly what I'd do: resolve it quietly, but let the media run away with it. Make it look like things are bad so that people start thinking we're up the proverbial creek.

 

[hornet_burnout]

It's exactly what I'd do: resolve it quietly, but let the media run away with it. Make it look like things are bad so that people start thinking we're up the proverbial creek.

Assuming things are resolved internally (which I doubt) it would be a good strategy.

 

[Seismica]

Vettel is adamant he was in control too.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8713707.stm

At 0:30

"All of a sudden I lost the car..."

I don't think he meant to turn in so soon. At that speed I would imagine it happened so fast neither of the drivers could have done anything about it. If you watched the replay you see Vettel's car kick up a bit of dust from the edge of the track, I don't know if that had anything to do with it, maybe he tried to correct and moved over too far.

It was definitely Vettel's mistake.

 

[725]

That was a good race, always liked the Istanbul circuit. Shame about Ferrari they need to get into the hunt asap. Excellent work by Mclaren shame about Lotus. What a shame for the Red Bulls, I have to agree with others that it did seem to be Vettel's fault not sure why everyone thinks that Mark should have given more space as he gave plenty. Silly incident which cost them a lot of points.

Also found Jonathan Legard quite annoying on the BBC coverage. Good post race forum too.

 

[zed300]

Vettel has 2-3 little wriggles at the crest and just after. He says he is in control, so this leads me to think all he was trying to do was intimidate his team mate. At what point did he ever think Mark was the type to be intimidated.

Yes Seb is quick, but Mark has the wood on him at the moment, with 3 consecutive poles and 2 wins. Seems like he has a bad taste in his mouth, and his mental attitude is a little fragile if he needs this type of tactic, to get back the dominance he has enjoyed over a team mate since the start of his F1 career.

His obvious disappointment showed in Spain, in the post race interview. It seems to have came to a head in Turkey. Grow up sook Seb.

 

[Touring Mars]

Racing incidents like this will always happen... it's just his attitude I don't like. He should acknowledge some responsibility on it.

Absolutely. Vettel is becoming increasingly unlikable, IMO. And, Sebastian, that's no way to treat a lady - especially on a first date...

 

[Seismica]

Absolutely. Vettel is becoming increasingly unlikable, IMO. And, Sebastian, that's no way to treat a lady - especially on a first date...

Are you David Coulthard now?

I do think Vettel should have simply waited a little longer before moving over. It was likely he would have been completely ahead of Mark by the braking zone, meaning Webber would have had to move over to avoid rear-ending him.

 

[725]

Are you David Coulthard now?

I do think Vettel should have simply waited a little longer before moving over. It was likely he would have been completely ahead of Mark by the braking zone, meaning Webber would have had to move over to avoid rear-ending him.

Agree with you if he had waited until the braking zone we could have had a different ending probably not as interesting though lol

Exciting stuff though I personally like these inter team rivalries shows more about the drivers then we see from regular interviews. I thought the Hamilton and Alonso rivalry was great

 

[dxm8975]

That was a good race, always liked the Istanbul circuit. Shame about Ferrari they need to get into the hunt asap. Excellent work by Mclaren shame about Lotus. What a shame for the Red Bulls, I have to agree with others that it did seem to be Vettel's fault not sure why everyone thinks that Mark should have given more space as he gave plenty. Silly incident which cost them a lot of points.

Also found Jonathan Legard quite annoying on the BBC coverage. Good post race forum too.

Yeah, that was completely Vettel's fault. But I don't think Webber gave him plenty of space to let him pass as others don't think so either. Well it doesn't mean he didn't provide "any" space for him to allow him to do it.. Anyway he was playing a bad role in the GP this year.

 

[hornet_burnout]

Are you David Coulthard now?

You lost me there on that joke guys I must admit.

I do think Vettel should have simply waited a little longer before moving over. It was likely he would have been completely ahead of Mark by the braking zone, meaning Webber would have had to move over to avoid rear-ending him.

Young, hot blooded, 3 races behind someone he considers inferior, sees a chance and he takes it right away... Understandable.

Should however accept the consequences of doing so.

 

[Seismica]

You lost me there on that joke guys I must admit.

Everytime he opens his mouth to speak... "Absolutely."

It's like his signature word/reply to any question. We get him on the BBC coverage so it's understandeable you wouldn't get it if you can't watch it on the BBC

 

[Radracing]

If you look at the top photo you can clearly see the skid marks where the braking area of the corner was. So that would be the target area for the racing line. The 3rd photo shows that, that was Vettles intention and knowing that Webber was his teammate he assumed Webber would also pull to that side of the track. The last photo shows that Webber being Webber would not move over. So this is the out come. So really, who lost? they both did and Mclaren won. Simple fact was the McLaren teammates gave each other room even when they touched and Rebull teamates didn't. Webber had better view of Vettle yet he didn't pull to the right and stay straight even when they touched he wanted to upset Vettles cars to lose momentum so he could get him at the next corner. Apparently it came out a lot worse than Webber wanted. Webber with full view of Vettles car next to him I think at that very moment your very first intinctive reaction would be to give more space as a teamate and also move to the race line to the right. So that would clearly show that his intention was otherwise.

 

[725]

You lost me there on that joke guys I must admit.

Seeing your location, I'm assuming you didn't watch the BBC Coverage? On the BBC Post race forum show, David Coulthard made some comments about another female presenter where viewers emailed the show claiming he was a flirt

Young, hot blooded, 3 races behind someone he considers inferior, sees a chance and he takes it right away... Understandable.

Should however accept the consequences of doing so.

Agree with that

 

[hornet_burnout]

Thanks for the clarification, usually I watch it on Portuguese Tv with local commentary.

But I watch BBC F1 very occasionally, and now that you mention it Seismica, even I can recall him starting most f his sentences with "absolutely"

 

[niky]

If you look at the top photo you can clearly see the skid marks where the braking area of the corner was. So that would be the target area for the racing line. The 3rd photo shows that, that was Vettles intention and knowing that Webber was his teammate he assumed Webber would also pull to that side of the track. The last photo shows that Webber being Webber would not move over. So this is the out come. So really, who lost? they both did and Mclaren won. Simple fact was the McLaren teammates gave each other room even when they touched and Rebull teamates didn't. Webber had better view of Vettle yet he didn't pull to the right and stay straight even when they touched he wanted to upset Vettles cars to lose momentum so he could get him at the next corner. Apparently it came out a lot worse than Webber wanted. Webber with full view of Vettles car next to him I think at that very moment your very first intinctive reaction would be to give more space as a teamate and also move to the race line to the right. So that would clearly show that his intention was otherwise.

Yeah... the McLarens didn't touch, but neither did the driver closer to the racing line (in each case) pull over to give the other driver the entire rest of the track to play with.

Watch the sequence between Button and Hamilton again... Neither ever gave the other more than a car and a half worth of space going into a corner... each trying to keep the other off the optimum line by constraining them on the inside/outside of the track... but Hamilton somehow found the grip to make the move into turn one stick, and that was the end of that. Neither pushed the other over to the other side of the track. Each was acutely aware of where the other was at all times. They played a little game of chess neatly and cleanly, without tipping the board or throwing the pieces around. That's how you race for position.

You're racing for position. You're not obliged to make it easy. Mark Webber was giving Vettel exactly enough space to make the turn, but he was pinning him on the inside of the turn, trying to force him to brake earlier and thus keeping him from taking the place. In a perfect race, Vettel would have accepted that, raced him wheel to wheel and perhaps used his advantage in terms of fuel trims (running the better one, having more power) to drag race him out of the corner... or concede that corner and come around the other side of Webber on the exit... again using his extra power.

No... instead, he either tries to bully Mark to the outside of the corner to get a better angle on it or accidentally pulls over on him. Big no-no. Very clear from the video that Mark had given him a whole lot of space to take the inside line... You don't automatically assume that once you've got your nose a few inches ahead that the other car has completely disappeared and that you can swerve a dozen feet to the right to get back on the racing line... do you? Look at your screencaps... that racing line is nearly four car-widths away!. Do you actually expect Vettel was trying to make it all the way there?

I'm a big Vettel fan, and I'm just as disappointed as he is that he's not top of the sheets this season... but I still don't see this one as being Webber's fault.

 

[Radracing]

Yeah... the McLarens didn't touch, but neither did the driver closer to the racing line (in each case) pull over to give the other driver the entire rest of the track to play with.

Watch the sequence between Button and Hamilton again... Neither ever gave the other more than a car and a half worth of space going into a corner... each trying to keep the other off the optimum line by constraining them on the inside/outside of the track... but Hamilton somehow found the grip to make the move into turn one stick, and that was the end of that. That's how you race for position.

You're racing for position. You're not obliged to make it easy. Mark Webber was giving Vettel exactly enough space to make the turn, but he was pinning him on the inside of the turn, trying to force him to brake earlier and thus keeping him from taking the place. In a perfect race, Vettel would have accepted that, raced him wheel to wheel and perhaps used his advantage in terms of fuel trims (running the better one, having more power) to drag race him out of the corner... or concede that corner and come around the other side of Webber on the exit... again using his extra power.

No... instead, he either tries to bully Mark to the outside of the corner to get a better angle on it or accidentally pulls over on him. Big no-no. Very clear from the video that Mark had given him a whole lot of space to take the inside line... You don't automatically assume that once you've got your nose a few inches ahead that the other car has completely disappeared and that you can swerve a dozen feet to the right to get back on the racing line... do you?

I'm a big Vettel fan, and I'm just as disappointed as he is that he's not top of the sheets this season... but I still don't see this one as being Webber's fault.

I don't think a dozen feet was his intention but he was trying to get every inch he could by moving over slowly. The only time Vettle moved over suddenly was after the contact because the car balance was already upset and he lost control.

The only fault Webber had was he did not move to the raceline to the right since they were teamates. If it was Hamilton then that would have been okay. The only fault Vettle has was assuming Webber would pull to the right.

 

[The Outlaw]

Yeah... the McLarens didn't touch, but neither did the driver closer to the racing line (in each case) pull over to give the other driver the entire rest of the track to play with.

Watch the sequence between Button and Hamilton again... Neither ever gave the other more than a car and a half worth of space going into a corner... each trying to keep the other off the optimum line by constraining them on the inside/outside of the track... but Hamilton somehow found the grip to make the move into turn one stick, and that was the end of that. Neither pushed the other over to the other side of the track. Each was acutely aware of where the other was at all times. They played a little game of chess neatly and cleanly, without tipping the board or throwing the pieces around. That's how you race for position.

That's incorrect. It was rather obvious that Button and Hamilton made contact (wheel to wheel) at turn 1, when Hamilton was able to regain the position and make it stick until the end of the race.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

It appears that there was an implied team order for Webber to let Vettel through. I think this is why some of the team don't blame Vettel fully.

Yeah there aren't supposed to be team orders, but there are. The teams just don't admit to it.

 

[hornet_burnout]

Ok... lets compare everything between the Red Bull and the McLarens then, and see what stands out.

On fuel:
- Vettel had one more lap of full power than Webber. He had to try and he did.
- Button had a bit more fuel than Hamilton and regardless of team warnings he tried. They are racing drivers. They have to try and they did.

Radio and team orders:
- Webber and Hamilton both got those "orders" you say. Must save fuel now. Even were told the other car was doing the same.

On teammates:
- Attacking Button tried to surprise his teammate boosting fuel mode, as in equal cars, it would very difficult to pass him otherwise. So did Vettel.
- Defending Webber didn't make it easy on his teammate as neither did Hamilton.

On room to move:
- Former arrogant and bully Hamilton (IMO), now more mature and the 2008 World Champion Hamilton, respects Button and left just enough room for both to race, and so did the always cool and 2009 World Champion Button.

- Webber tried exactly the same, leaving just enough room. But Vettel's ego with just one wheel in front said "it's all mine now". Because he does not respect Webber as his pear (as I said before this is shown all the time, he always diminishes his teammates accomplishments), and it's that arrogance and lack of respect that caused the crash.

Let's hope he "grows up" to (truly) understand and accept responsibility for his actions in the future.

I think Hamilton did and has won some of my respect. Mr Schumacher never did

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

On room to move:
- Former arrogant and bully Hamilton (IMO), now more mature and the 2008 World Champion Hamilton, respects Button and left just enough room for both to race, and so did the always cool and 2009 World Champion Button.

Is that why they made contact when Hamilton retook the place?

 

[niky]

love tap =/= elbow to ribs.

 

[Seismica]

Is that why they made contact when Hamilton retook the place?

No actually I agree with Hornet burnout, Hamilton used to be aggressive and reckless but in this case he wasn't. There was run off that Button could have used, Button and Hamilton still gave eachother enough room. They both braked late into turn one and were both understeering wide, the contact was at relatively low speed and was a relatively small impact.

What he was referring to was how they gave enother plenty of room through turns 12, 13 and 14. Hamilton could easily have moved over to the outside line through 12 to cut him off, and he could easily have turned into Button through turn 13 when Button went wide to squeeze him out. Inside he bided his time and got a better exit out of 14 which led to the place regain. They did give eachother room. The contact into turn 1 was just squeezing Button out wide, nothing wrong with that. Turning into someone whilst travelling side by side at 180+mph is a little bit ridiculous though.

Vettel hasn't been in a competitive car as long as Lewis and his lack of experience is showing.

 

[hornet_burnout]

Is that why they made contact when Hamilton retook the place?

Yes, I believe so. It's not easy, and it was "just enough". More would be making it easy for Hamilton, less would be Button going for the apex, shutting the door and ending it in tears for both.

Bottom line, great racing stuff and both finished the race, patting each other on the back.

 

[Dodzzz]

I personally blame webber 100% because he was trying to fight the wrong person (vettel), I mean they both were supposed to defend themself from the mclarens (lewis was right behind them), so what webber did to vettel was really not good for the whole team (including himself), even if vettel manage to pass him without colliding, they both would have then lost their positions to lewis in the very next turn because they're BOTH not in the racing line (and fighting each other).