2010 Formula One Turkish Grand Prix

  • Thread starter Thread starter Cap'n Jack
  • 423 comments
  • 26,049 views
Dodzzz
I personally blame webber 100% because he was trying to fight the wrong person (vettel), I mean they both were supposed to defend themself from the mclarens (lewis was right behind them), so what webber did to vettel was really not good for the whole team (including himself), even if vettel manage to pass him without colliding, they both would have then lost their positions to lewis in the very next turn because they're BOTH not in the racing line (and fighting each other).
Click to expand...

Webber doesn't take kindly to Vettel thinking he can walk all over him. Both drivers tried to assert their dominance in the team, but ultimately I think Vettel was in the wrong here.
 
Dodzzz
I personally blame webber 100% because he was trying to fight the wrong person (vettel), I mean they both were supposed to defend themself from the mclarens (lewis was right behind them), so what webber did to vettel was really not good for the whole team (including himself), even if vettel manage to pass him without colliding, they both would have then lost their positions to lewis in the very next turn because they're BOTH not in the racing line (and fighting each other).
Click to expand...

By that logic Vettel is 100% to blame, he was the one that decided to fight the wrong person (webber) ... and I could go on just swappingthe drivers names in your entire post.
 
Vettel's immediate reaction is a sign of a driver who is absolutely clueless and oblivious as to who was actually responsible for the accident, it was a pathetic gesture he made to the entire viewing public, a sign of great immaturity, to not let the adrenaline subside and to mentality assess what had just happened, automatically he assumed, oh look we have crashed, but of course Webber was the cause of this accident, Webber is crazy! Lets make a stupid hand movement that signifies that Webber is crazy. Seb needs to learn the art of overtaking, never anticipate, just adapt to the situation logically (quickly of course) but do not anticipate a move by your opponent, do not assume he will position his car in a particular state and velocity, as many opponents are unpredictable, ESPECIALLY opponents who are out in front of a GP in front of thousands of fans. Vettel is an absolute tool and a half!
 
Seismica
No actually I agree with Hornet burnout, Hamilton used to be aggressive and reckless but in this case he wasn't. There was run off that Button could have used, Button and Hamilton still gave eachother enough room. They both braked late into turn one and were both understeering wide, the contact was at relatively low speed and was a relatively small impact.

What he was referring to was how they gave enother plenty of room through turns 12, 13 and 14. Hamilton could easily have moved over to the outside line through 12 to cut him off, and he could easily have turned into Button through turn 13 when Button went wide to squeeze him out. Inside he bided his time and got a better exit out of 14 which led to the place regain. They did give eachother room. The contact into turn 1 was just squeezing Button out wide, nothing wrong with that. Turning into someone whilst travelling side by side at 180+mph is a little bit ridiculous though.

Vettel hasn't been in a competitive car as long as Lewis and his lack of experience is showing.
Click to expand...

Missed your post while replying earlier. Yes, that is it. Even in the front straight going flat out Button tried to scare/squeeze Hamilton who took the "punishment" and waited for the next turn and for Button to go right. Vettel did not.

No RESPECT, not mature maybe...


Another thing... please bare in mind that team-mates doesn't exactly mean they have to be best mates. Just two guys racing in the same team for the same and single crown. Heck, even the teams work for World Champion first, and for manufacturers tittle next.

So this idea that teammates must be all very careful with each other, and can be utterly aggressive with non-teammates is very wrong IMO. RESPECT should always be present between all drivers.

Team-mates have an extra duty to try and "mind the paint" on the other car. But that applies to both, and does not mean they can't have a fair fight.
 
Drivers are rarely going to blame themselves for accidents unless they hit something other than another driver. It's quite clear that Vettel is desperate to outperform Webber at the moment, Vettel's performances over the past 7 races has been a complete vice-versa to Webber's: He's getting worse, and Webber's getting better, he's in the form of his life at the moment, and this is really the first time that Vettel's had a teammate that can equal and exceed his own performance.
 
PeterJB
Drivers are rarely going to blame themselves for accidents unless they hit something other than another driver. It's quite clear that Vettel is desperate to outperform Webber at the moment, Vettel's performances over the past 7 races has been a complete vice-versa to Webber's: He's getting worse, and Webber's getting better, he's in the form of his life at the moment, and this is really the first time that Vettel's had a teammate that can equal and exceed his own performance.
Click to expand...

👍

To be fair Vettel was hit by bad luck in qualifying with his suspension problem, he was leading the way through practice and Q1-2. His move would have been good if he held the inside line, like err MarkWebber/DHolland said he was wrong to anticipate Webber moving over for him. If it was Hamilton (Or Schumi, Alonso, Kubica - Button may have yielded like he did in Spain for Schumi) defending for position they would not have moved over, so why should Webber?

Hopefully the teammates can put this behind them and that Vettel will have learnt from this. Webber has already said he would do the same again to defend his position. (I say hopefully, but i'm rooting for Mclaren/Button. I'm glad RBR screwed up :p)
 
I'm not. :D

Hopefully this won't happen again. Vettel has thrown away 56 points this year due to mechanic and/or driver error.
 
This won't be the end of it, I think we can be assured of that. Its not just the actions on track that is the controversial side of this incident, but also the terrible way Red Bull management have dealt with it.

We've had clear messages supporting Vettel's side of the argument and murmurs of team orders and favouritism of Vettel. Horner said all the wrong things about this incident and Webbers words from the press conference are very intriguing indeed.
I have to say Webber is not looking good right now for 2011 with Red Bull and its not really his fault.

Vettel will be super-focused on beating Mark at Montreal, I don't think we have seen the last of this little fight. What happens when Webber is in front next time?
 
Ardius
(..)Vettel will be super-focused on beating Mark at Montreal, I don't think we have seen the last of this little fight. What happens when Webber is in front next time?
Click to expand...

Although I honestly wish otherwise, I bet on even more deliberate aggressive behavior from Vettel. In and off track.
 
Regardless of who has the reason ( it's obvious that Vettel screwed up the team ), RBR has lost the Constructors championship lead to McLaren, I hope that Vettel doesn't make any stupid move in Montreal. A Healthy fight between teammates is acceptable, what we saw in Turkey isn't.

Not to mention his hand gestures, he's so talented, remember Hamilton in his first year. I hope he chill out and do his job, he's far better than Webber, he's only lacking maturity and error control, to be a champ, he doesn't need to win all the races, he just need to finish most of them in the lead spots. I hope he have learnt the lesson.
 
Dan_
Regardless of who has the reason ( it's obvious that Vettel screwed up the team ), RBR has lost the Constructors championship lead to McLaren, I hope that Vettel doesn't make any stupid move in Montreal. A Healthy fight between teammates is acceptable, what we saw in Turkey isn't.

Not to mention his hand gestures, he's so talented, remember Hamilton in his first year. I hope he chill out and do his job, he's far better than Webber, he's only lacking maturity and error control, to be a champ, he doesn't need to win all the races, he just need to finish most of them in the lead spots. I hope he have learnt the lesson.
Click to expand...

Isn't this Vettel's third year in the Sport? (Couple of years back I didn't really follow it as closely as I do now)

He should be getting more mature by now. I fear he's turning into a sort of Alonso character who always puts his own ego before his team's success.
 
Last edited:
Seismica
Isn't this Vettel's third year in the Sport? (Couple of years back I didn't really follow it as closesly as I do now)

He should be getting more mature by now. I fear he's turning into a sort of Alonso character who always puts his own ego before his team's success.
Click to expand...

4th year, 3rd full season.
You can still lack maturity and be in F1 for many years. Alonso is a perfect example of lacking maturity after several years in the sport. ;)
 
I agree RBR is handling it poorly.

I think Vettel is acting very child like and the team very parental like-see the hugs for Seb on the pit wall after his crash-consoling the favourite child!

Meanwhile, the more the season goes on, the more of a fan of Webber I have become!

Looking forward to Montreal bien sur! Dats fur shur!
 
I mentioned it before but didn't go into too much details about why I put most of the blame on Webber. Think about this: Vettel had a much greater speed, he had the inside line, and he was already half a car ahead of Webber. If there was no crash, Vettel would be able to finish the overtake maneuver before the corner. There was no way Webber could fight for his position on that corner. His only hope was for Vettel to overshoot the corner, or for him to get a better position in the chicanes and counterattack on the straight-away. You can argue that he had the right to fight until the last moment, but at that moment the fight was lost. Plus, that was his team mate there. So in my opinion there was a lack of common sense from Webber's part. It's true that Vettel made a mistake, but the way Webber acted was totally unreasonable.
 
Of course, Webber could let Vettel through... and he did. He didn't deviate one iota from his line to squeeze Vettel into the grass... he performed none of that jockeying that Button or Hamilton did afterwards. He left Vettel exactly the same amount of room all the way down that straight, until Vettel veered into him. And please... most of us watching that race, as well as 99% of the media outlets watching saw Vettel's RBR veer right into Webber's path.

It still baffles me that people think that Mark should have avoided Vettel. He wasn't obliged to. Claiming it's his fault is like claiming that lady you sideswiped last week was at fault for not slamming on the brakes when you swerved into her lane. We've seen Mark avoid his fair share of fracases very expertly over the season (most memorably in Monaco), but he shouldn't have to expect that from his team-mate.

Ardius
4th year, 3rd full season.
You can still lack maturity and be in F1 for many years. Alonso is a perfect example of lacking maturity after several years in the sport. ;)
Click to expand...

Hey, it's called passion. :lol:

BlacqueJacques
I think Vettel is acting very child like and the team very parental like-see the hugs for Seb on the pit wall after his crash-consoling the favourite child!
Click to expand...

Parental hugs? It looked more like guys huddling to talk on a very loud pit wall. Vettel was going up to the pitcrew and apologizing for the incident. Part of being a good team player, communicating with your team. And probably part of why the team seemed to take his side, initially, since he did his fair share of campaigning for sympathy before Mark even stepped out of the car.
 
Last edited:
niky
It still baffles me that people think that Mark should have avoided Vettel. He wasn't obliged to.
Click to expand...

Yes, he should have avoided him and could have avoided him with his skills and talent because they needed to finish the race in front and win. The only way to do that is to avoid contact first. Blaming the contact to Vettle turning in too fast was just an excuse IMO. Avoiding contact would be the first priority especially as team mates. As competitors going for the points and championship no he's not obliged to. But as you can see Webbers priority is to be champion first and teamates later. So it goes both ways really depending on what your priorities are.

Seismica
Webber doesn't take kindly to Vettel thinking he can walk all over him. Both drivers tried to assert their dominance in the team, but ultimately I think Vettel was in the wrong here.
Click to expand...

and so it's okay for Webber to take Vettle out because he dosen't take it kindly to show that Vettle can pass him?
 
Last edited:
Radracing
But as you can see Webbers priority is to be champion first and teamates later.
Click to expand...

So why does Mark have to be the one that moves? Thinking about it, what you said could easily be, "as you can see Vettel's priority is to be champion first and teammates late." If Mark was to completely back off, roll out a red carpet and tell Vettel to move on through, he wouldn't deserve a seat in a top team, and may as well have given Seb the WDC trophy and retired back to Australia. I don't get why Mark, who was equal on points and ahead of the championship on countback, should have to be number two driver to Seb.
 
How on Earth is anyone ever going to reach the "pinnacle" of motorsport by learning that they should yeild to another driver, when they are in a positition to win a race.
If any of these drivers did that during their career, even back in Karts as a10 year old, they would never have got to F1.

These 2 RBR drivers are about as closely matched in ultimate speed as I can ever remember. They both lead the DC and are more than capable of winning races.

MW is under no illusions that he has to push himself to the limit, to match the young German. The decision to not give him the corner before they had even reached the braking area is not a mistake. His thoughts must surely have been to hold him there if he sits beside him, until the braking zone, then cross to the racing line and take back the lead thru 13. I cannot speak for Mark, but this would be a normal defence IMO.

Seb was just trying to get as much chance as he could, at getting some decent road for braking. No mistake in that. You just can't wander over expecting they are going to move over and let you through.

I thought there was enough road and he had enough pace to totally overtake MW, then he could've had the whole road.
 
Radracing
and so it's okay for Webber to take Vettle out because he dosen't take it kindly to show that Vettle can pass him?
Click to expand...

Hey, Rocky?

Yeah, Clubber?

(throws punch... connects!)

Ouch! WTF did you do that for! I thought we were friends!

You idiot, you're the most talented boxer in the world! You should have ducked! That was totally your fault, bro!

:D

Seriously... Webber should have had the mad 1337 skills (yo) to avoid Vettel? Seriously?
 
Wait, are people really saying that it's Webber's fault that, as he drove in a straight line down the middle of a straight, his teammate, trying to pass him, pulled alongside him and turned into him?

Really?
 
Yes. Though he didn't exactly drive in a straight line did he? He pushed Vettel and yes Vettel made the final mistake or lost control whatever story you want to believe. Webber pushed him too much to start with though which is hardly what team mates should be doing. End of the day they are both at fault.
 
Guys... I though Famine's post would show the ridicule of blaming Webber and people would shut-up about it, but it didn't.

1st - Webber did not PUSH anyone. If had done so, Vettel would have been completely on the grass and crashing alone.

2nd - Why is it mandatory for Webber to a be good lad an move away and not hold his line, when you do not think it's mandatory for Vettel to at least hold his line and not veer into Webber?

3rd - You do you guys think Vettel can act like an SOB who owns the track calling Webber a loony and insulting the press and be right, and Webber is a bad temmate just by holding his line and being correct and polite about the incident?

4th - Why is it that Webber, when driving straight, is obligated to guess Vettel is going to veer into him, and Vettel does not have to guess (more like SEE and HEAR) he still has a car besides him and not turn into it?

Oh, and these are pretty much rhetorical questions. I made them so you can stop and think of the nonsense you are stating against the facts. Leave you Vettel love personal preferences aside, and be fair.

Webber's words to Hamilton before the podium ceremony define it best: "He messed up."
 
J-PaP
Yes. Though he didn't exactly drive in a straight line did he? He pushed Vettel and yes Vettel made the final mistake or lost control whatever story you want to believe. Webber pushed him too much to start with though which is hardly what team mates should be doing. End of the day they are both at fault.
Click to expand...

All Webber did was get a crap run out of the previous corner. He realised that and parked his car slap-bang in the middle of the straight to force Vettel to pick from a rubbish, hard-braking inside line or the ideal, but obstructed line to the next turn. That's textbook positional defence. Vettel quite rightly tried to capitalise on the mistake, picked the inside but turned sideways into his teammate when all he had to do was drive in a straight line.

Compare with Hamilton and Button who apparently know how to race wheel-to-wheel with each other. To be fair to Webber, he does too. The weak link is Vettel - who was pulling the exact post-race faces Hamilton and Alonso do in their best Incredible Sulk moments.
 
J-PaP
Yes. Though he didn't exactly drive in a straight line did he? He pushed Vettel and yes Vettel made the final mistake or lost control whatever story you want to believe. Webber pushed him too much to start with though which is hardly what team mates should be doing. End of the day they are both at fault.
Click to expand...

Webber drove in a straight line leaving Vettel enough space to also drive in a straight line and fight for the corner under braking. He was putting him under pressure in the sense of making him use the inside line, but he had given the space for Vettel to complete the move and potentially beat him into turn 12.
And before we go back onto "the inside line is dirty and he wouldn't have made it", Sutil passed Kobayashi on the inside line there successfully...there have been loads of overtakes there on the inside line.
The "teammates" line is not valid either, they were fighting for position and effectively the lead of the championship. This is the risk you run with such scenarios, you cannot expect both drivers to just let each other past without a fight and why the hell would you want that? Of course, Red Bull wanted that, and it seems they wanted Vettel as number 1 too...but from a drivers perspective there was no obligation for Mark to move over more then he did. He's not just a team player, he is also fighting for his own championship.
Even so though, Webber didn't cause the incident, so he wasn't ruining the teams chances, Vettel is with these mistakes.
 
I still think it's both drivers at fault here, Vettel for doing a stupid move and Webber for not giving enough room. Yes he had the right to do so, but it was his teammate and you just don't do this with your teammate... what if he had given a lil more room and Vettel would have succesfully overtaken? We don't know, but they wouldn't have crashed most likely and Webber would still had the chance of winning or become second...
What I find much worse tho is Vettels and the teams reaction, seems a bit unfair towards Webber.
Only positive thing is that I now know who I will support for the season... Webber all the way, much better racedriver with more experience and not just raw speed.
Also he has a nice lead at the moment IIRC, so Vettel seems rather unlikely for DC.

Looking forward to Montreal...
 
He had enough room to get alongside and slightly in front of Webber (there was even more on the outside, had Vettel opted to go that side). Webber was driving straight and the track doesn't narrow. Vettel only needed to keep going straight...
 

Latest Posts

Back