2010 Formula One Turkish Grand Prix

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I'm glad Mclaren were running close to the Red Bulls in terms of pace. It makes for a boring season if one team absolutely dominates. Mclaren were neck and neck with RBR for most of the weekend, and their race pace is better than their qualifying pace so if anything the Red Bulls were holding them up.

It would have been very boring if there was a large gap between Red Bull and Mclaren, then another gap to Mercedes, then another to Renault/Ferrari etc.

There is actually a few interesting battles going on throughout the field.

Seismica - That's how you can spot the World Champion. They will go round the outside if they feel like it.

Hamilton vs Rosberg at Melbourne too :p The Mclaren team have two world class drivers at the team who are on top form.
 
Ardius - The real question is how does Bernie do it!?!? :lol:

Every time F1 starts to get a bit boring these things pop out of nowhere! I actually got a bit bored around lap 35 of the race, decided to cook some microwave popcorn, go back to watch then all of a sudden Vettel and Webber immediately take each other out!!

True story about the pop corn by the way :lol:
 
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I'm glad Mclaren were running close to the Red Bulls in terms of pace. It makes for a boring season if one team absolutely dominates. Mclaren were neck and neck with RBR for most of the weekend, and their race pace is better than their qualifying pace so if anything the Red Bulls were holding them up.

RBR have really missed a golden opportunity the beginning of this season. With a car so dominant they should have been miles ahead at this stage, just as Brawn were last year. Starting and finishing a season with the best car is great, but if that start and finish are in separate seasons you are always also going to need luck on your side to clinch the championship. They're really having all their bad luck at the wrong time at the moment.
 
RBR have really missed a golden opportunity the beginning of this season. With a car so dominant they should have been miles ahead at this stage, just as Brawn were last year. Starting and finishing a season with the best car is great, but if that start and finish are in separate seasons you are always also going to need luck on your side to clinch the championship. They're really having all their bad luck at the wrong time at the moment.

They're still quite a young team though compared to McLaren and Ferrari. From memory they've only been in a position to fight for a championship twice (this year and last for both the WCC and WDC - even if you include the years when they were Jaguar and Stewart GP?).
 
Heh, funnily enough, I think Red Bull have similar problems that Toyota always had though without the massive budget and board of directors in Japan.
Poor(er) strategy and management, only the technical side of the team is top notch.

Reliability has been their big watch-word though, and its not surprising with Newey cars.

Oh and:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84085
autosport
Red Bull Racing has conceded that it was wrong to pin the blame on Mark Webber for the clash with team-mate Sebastian Vettel in Turkey last weekend - with the team now believing their coming-together was simply an 'unnecessary' racing accident.

In a press release Q & A issued by the team on Tuesday to try and defuse the controversy surrounding the team, team principal Christian Horner cast further light on the events building up to the incident.

Having had two days to analyse the crash and the circumstances surrounding it, Horner said that all factions of the team - including Red Bull's motorsport advisor Helmut Marko - now believed both drivers should share the blame for what happened.

This stance is in contrast to comments made by Marko immediately after the race, where he wholly blamed Webber. That statement prompted furore from fans and the media, especially because it was Vettel who had turned right into Webber's car as he tried to overtake him.

"Ultimately we win as a team and we lose as a team and on Sunday we lost as a team, as a result of our two drivers having an incident," said Horner. "Having looked at all the information it's clear that it was a racing accident that shouldn't have happened between two team mates.

"After looking at all the facts that weren't available immediately after the race, Dr. Marko also fully shares this view."

Horner revealed that two laps prior to the incident, Webber had turned his engine down to try and conserve fuel - which cost him 0.18 seconds per lap.

"On lap 38 and 39, Sebastian's pace picked up and he closed right up to the back of Mark while under considerable pressure from Hamilton behind," explained Horner. "After a very strong run through Turn 9, Sebastian got a run and strong tow and moved to the left to pass Mark.

"Mark held the inside line and adopted a defensive position, which he is entitled to do. When Sebastian was three quarters of the way past, he moved to the right.

"As Sebastian moved to the right, Mark held his position and the ensuing result was contact that resulted in Sebastian retiring, Mark damaging the front-end of his car and the team losing a one two finish. Ultimately both drivers should have given each other more room."

Horner said that talks planned with the drivers would clear up several issues relating to the race - including Vettel's actions when he got out of the car where his gestures indicated he thought Webber had been 'mad' for causing the crash.

"The adrenaline was flowing and obviously there's a great deal of frustration when you've just crashed out of a race," said Horner. "It will be discussed and I am certain that the air will be cleared before Canada."

He added: "We're a very strong team and we will sit down and discuss this openly with the drivers in order to learn from what has happened and avoid a situation like this arising again. One of the strengths of Red Bull Racing is the team spirit here, which has contributed to the performance that we have achieved so far this season. The drivers are both intelligent individuals and this issue will be resolved prior to the Canadian Grand Prix."

Although the fallout from Red Bull's handling of the events has heightened suspicions among fans that Vettel is the team's preferred driver, Horner remained adamant that both drivers would continue as equals.

"Both drivers, as has always been the case, will continue to be given equal treatment," he said. "The Turkish Grand Prix has been a costly lesson for both drivers and we are confident that this situation won't happen again."

When asked for Red Bull owner Dietrich Mateschitz's thoughts on the matter, he said: "Dietrich has spoken with both drivers following the incident. He has always supported both drivers equally and summed it up by saying, 'S*** happens...' we shouldn't talk about the past, but concentrate on the future. The fact is that we not only have the fastest car, but also two of the best and fastest drivers".

Such has been the level of criticism aimed at the team that Horner has also written an open letter to fans on Red Bull Racing's website forum explaining the outfit's situations.

"We now have to re-group," he said. "We are a strong team and we'll sit down and discuss what we can learn from this incident. We have immense team spirit here at Red Bull Racing, both Sebastian and Mark are intelligent individuals and we will have the situation resolved before we go to Montreal.

"And finally as I have always pledged, both drivers, will continue to be given equal treatment. The Turkish Grand Prix has been a costly lesson for both drivers and we are confident that this situation won't happen again.

"We still have a long way to go this year until Abu Dhabi and whichever Red Bull Racing driver you're behind in the fight for the world championship, I hope we - and they - can count on your support."

Damage done guys, thats all thats needs to be said. You came out and showed your hand with regards to Vettel and now you've got to handle the situation very delicately.
Why on earth didn't they say this originally? Nevermind not having all the facts, Horner and Marko shouldn't have started blaming anyone. They should have remained neutral, but instead they appear to have shown a frustration from the team on behalf of Vettel's form recently and their desire to see Vettel ahead of Webber. Otherwise, why was it so easy for them to just blame Webber like that?
 
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Poor(er) strategy and management, only the technical side of the team is top notch.

Christian Horner might well be the weakest link in the chain at this moment in time. He does sometimes appear to be irritated and flustered. Perhaps he's a little out of his depth at the moment?

Up until this season they've had nothing to prove. Now all the focus is on them having the best package and everyone therefore expecting them to get the results, they look as if they're coming apart at the seams.

If Horner does have what it takes to be a good team principle, he'll learn a lot from this season (and the end of last) and hopefully gain the ammunition he needs to get the job done in subsequent seasons. As it stands he must be under so much pressure from Dietrich Mateschitz to get things right.
 
Yes. Even if it was Webber's fault, 100%, this is what should be said from the very first moment, without taking sides.

Choosing a side was wrong. Doing so based on personal preference (and getting it wrong on top of it), is very, very, very poor management.

We racer wannabees and racers as well, can debate and take sides and measure the guilt on each side. The team can't, not publicly at least.
 
I hope Webber wins the championship and shows up the 'coddled kid' !

Thanks for the article and your thoughts Ardius 👍
 
:cheers: No problem guys.

I can't wait to see what Vettel does now on the track.

Well I don't know what else is there for Vettel to do. Is he going to apologize? After having the backing of the team (and this statement from RBR doesn't exactly clear any doubts), I don't know if he feels the need to. They already blamed Webber, now it's 50/50 at fault. Though the right thing for him to do would be to apologize, at least personally, I think RBR are already resolved to put it behind them.

Vettel's relative silence in all of this is deafening.
 
I can't wait to see what Vettel does now on the track.

One thing is for sure and that is the pure glee that the likes of McLaren must be feeling right now over this saga. Let's face it, the slightest sign of an unusual situation committed by the Red Bull team is going to face the maximum amount of attention and scrutiny.

Can you imagine if Webber suffers the same fate as Hamilton did in a pit stop as this weekend? There will be a huge inquiry, by the press and fans, if not by officials.

What's even more daft about this situation is that we are only just over one third of the way through the season. This situation is doublely strange because of this fact and that the points are so close between the drivers that it may not be at all significant by the end of the season.

Example of potential result of next race:
race position / champ. standing
1. Vettel 103
2. Hamilton 102
3. Button 103
4. Alonso 91
5. Webber 103

So, in a race (Canadian GP) that can and usually throws in a curve ball or six, anything can and probably will happen and the result of the Turkish GP may be put into perspective a little more.
 
Hm, I think Vettel won't apologise, as that will be a bit too morally defeatist, its better to tell himself that Mark made the mistake and that he can still beat him. If he apologises it wouldn't hurt his image though, as the situation has already been screwed up. The only people who are making things worse for themselves at the moment are Red Bull, a good lesson in how not to handle your public relations.

But I'm more interested in what happens next time Vettel catches Webber. Is he going to try an aggressive move again or is he going to be more cautious? Is Webber going to be more cautious? Will this look like team orders?

Like it or not, Red Bull are going to be heavily scrutinised from now on.

And yeah, I laughed at the psychological warfare McLaren used after the race:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84073
Very clever haha. "Oh look, our drivers didn't crash and fought fairly, guess Red Bull can't cut it?" :lol:.
McLaren will be looking to cause more incidents like this, after all, it was their pressure on Vettel and Webber which created the situation where Red Bull felt the need to get Vettel ahead and they so desperately fought.
 
Based on my previous opinions stated about Vettel and this current situation, I doubt Vettel will ever apologise. The only thing the team can do is put a face on and hope neither of them win the title but at least bring home the constructors' :lol:

I don't think the odds on Red Bull copying McLaren's garage layout are too high either.

.......McLaren will be looking to cause more incidents like this, after all, it was their pressure on Vettel and Webber which created the situation where Red Bull felt the need to get Vettel ahead and they so desperately fought.

There's too much ground to cover for this to be likely.
 
I seriously doubt any team, let alone McLaren (given their curiously similar situation) will be enjoying or attempting to exploit the phony controversy generated by the Red Bull collision at the weekend. I'm just glad they were actually team mates... imagine if it had been Hamilton and not Webber involved in that crash... I doubt there is a handbag big enough :sick:
 
I'm pretty sure McLaren will be trying to push the crack in Red Bull's driver relationships as much as they can, like they did with that article. Obviously they would have done this anyway by becoming a threat on the track, but its to their benefit that Red Bull collapses like this.
At least to me, it comes across as gloating from McLaren that their drivers didn't repeat the same incident.

If McLaren have a similar incident at Montreal, you can bet on them contrasting to Red Bull in any way possible. Psychological warfare has already been at play from Red Bull anyway, with their amused comments on "is it the exhauts that give you an advantage?", "is it a ride-height adjustor?", "what makes you so fast?".
McLaren (and everyone else) will be entering the races now knowing that they can pressure Red Bull into making strategy and management mistakes.
 
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Hm, I think Vettel won't apologise, as that will be a bit too morally defeatist, its better to tell himself that Mark made the mistake and that he can still beat him. If he apologises it wouldn't hurt his image though, as the situation has already been screwed up. The only people who are making things worse for themselves at the moment are Red Bull, a good lesson in how not to handle your public relations.

But I'm more interested in what happens next time Vettel catches Webber. Is he going to try an aggressive move again or is he going to be more cautious? Is Webber going to be more cautious? Will this look like team orders?

Like it or not, Red Bull are going to be heavily scrutinised from now on.

And yeah, I laughed at the psychological warfare McLaren used after the race:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84073
Very clever haha. "Oh look, our drivers didn't crash and fought fairly, guess Red Bull can't cut it?" :lol:.
McLaren will be looking to cause more incidents like this, after all, it was their pressure on Vettel and Webber which created the situation where Red Bull felt the need to get Vettel ahead and they so desperately fought.

I'm also interested in seeing what will happen when Vettel tries to pass Webber on the track next time, it would be worth watching how they move when it happens during a race. :D
 
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At the beginning of the pass Vettel had only just enough room, his left front went past the white line. In the middle photo posted by Waggles Mark HAS MOVED OVER , more than a car width and is avoiding the ever wandering Vettel. Vettel just kept going, until he touched tyes and that violently turned his car right.

I will say it again, Vettel had the pace and momentum, to just drive on ,there was no need to move right for another 50-60 meters. By then he would have had the whole road, with 170 meters to the corner.
 
Vettel went for the inside, to Webber's left...

All Webber did wrong was get a poor run through the preceding corner. He clearly knew it because he put his car in the middle of the track - which is the basics of defending your position. It forces anyone who'd try to pass you to pick a suboptimal line - they either go on the racing line to the outside and risk trying to turn into the corner with you sitting on the apex, or they go to the inside and hope to outbrake you and risk you ducking under them on corner exit and you waste your time.

At that point, every decision was Vettel's. Webber was driving in a straight line down the centre of the track. Vettel chose to go left and outbrake - which is what any racing driver will do (passing round the outside requires huge cojones and more than a little faith) - and Vettel chose to steer his car to the right into a teammate he hadn't fully passed yet. He didn't crash into Webber on purpose, but the situation was entirely in his hands and he screwed it up.

I agree with this. I've been club racing cars and karts for over 40 years, and been in very similar situations many times. Normally, in my league of racing, the overtaking driver will be required to "seal the deal" by actually outbraking the defender. Normally, the defender will realize the other guy is getting past and be prepared to cede the corner prior to the apex. In the Vettel/Webber incident, it is not clear to me that Vettel couldn't have performed the required outbraking maneuver due to the track surface down the inside. Can someone clear this up for me, please?

Respectfully,
Dotini
 
He could have, and probably would have tried.

We still don't know if he had a brain-burp and forgot Webber was there or if he got pushed off-line by debris... he was on route to a clean overtake and he fumbled it.

I doubt there is a handbag big enough :sick:

You're not suggesting they go at it with those ugly new ones with all the chrome and buckles? That could leave a few scars... :lol:
 
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At the beginning of the pass Vettel had only just enough room, his left front went past the white line. In the middle photo posted by Waggles Mark HAS MOVED OVER , more than a car width and is avoiding the ever wandering Vettel. Vettel just kept going, until he touched tyes and that violently turned his car right.

I will say it again, Vettel had the pace and momentum, to just drive on ,there was no need to move right for another 50-60 meters. By then he would have had the whole road, with 170 meters to the corner.

2nd photo shows the 150 marker so what would be the brake point for that speed in that corner?
 
It can't always be only one person at fault in an accident. Webber is at fault for moving Vettel over a bit too much and not giving him much room, so if Vettel was to ever move over, which he did, they would collide, and that's where Vettel is at fault, for moving over when he was not clear enough of Webber.
 
It can't always be only one person at fault in an accident. Webber is at fault for moving Vettel over a bit too much and not giving him much room, so if Vettel was to ever move over, which he did, they would collide, and that's where Vettel is at fault, for moving over when he was not clear enough of Webber.

yes I agree with this.
I don't think it's easy to keep the car straight at 300kmh.
I still personally blame webber for squeezing his own team mate at that speed, it's like suicidal move for both of them.
 
It can't always be only one person at fault in an accident. Webber is at fault for moving Vettel over a bit too much and not giving him much room, so if Vettel was to ever move over, which he did, they would collide, and that's where Vettel is at fault, for moving over when he was not clear enough of Webber.

Webber didn't push Vettel on the dirty line. He slotted himself down the middle of the road and let Vettel decide where he wanted to pass him on. And when Vettel decided, he pulled a little further out to give him room... as can be clearly seen in the video, and as it has been discussed on the previous 10,000 pages...

Clearly, everyone else here, on Formula1.com, on Autosport, on espn (formerly F1live) and etecetera has managed to notice Mark driving in a straight line with tons of room on both sides... why can't you?
 
Approx 100m, depending on fuel, car and driver.

Yeah, it depends on car and the driver who controls it, if he's a good driver he will need less distance to deccelerate his own car, on the other hand if he's bad or has trouble with his car, he might require more to do it.. :rolleyes:
 
Yes... braking!

The track was sooooo bad and dirty on the inside that maybe poor Vettel was just trying to brake soon and use contact with the other RedBull to help with that... not trying to break is momentum (in the race and in the championship...).

/end sarcasm
 
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