2010 Formula One Turkish Grand Prix

[Seismica]

Approx 100m, depending on fuel, car and driver.

Braking distance is just before the 100 metre mark. Which means they were at least around 100 metres from the braking zone when Vettel started to move away from the white line and into the path of Webber.

Vettel knows that if he braked early and hit the apex Webber would have taken him into turn 13, just like Button did when he overtook Hamilton.

He (Vettel) would have had to brake late and squeeze Webber out whilst risking the chance of Hamilton overtaking them both, or he could have tried to move over away from the dirty side to get a better exit from 12 and a better run into turn 13 and 14. Webber wasn't having any of it, he was forcing Vettel down the inside because he knew he would have then had the better line into turn 13 and 14. Vettel tried to push Mark wide before the braking zone. You can't do that at 180mph. Very selfish and reckless in my opinion.

 

[hornet_burnout]

^perfect.

Drivers usually overtake by brake diving on the inside. If this was normal corner, Vettel would have the edge and would not move right.

But he knew he was not in the best line for this particular corner and tried to push Webber. Not the other way around.

 

[BlacqueJacques]

^perfect.

Drivers usually overtake by brake diving on the inside. If this was normal corner, Vettel would have the edge and would not move right.

But he knew he was not in the best line for this particular corner and tried to push Webber. Not the other way around.

My thoughts also; wasn't that corner the 'bumpy' one on the inside as well, which would make for less optimimum late braking?

Makes for an interesting championship doesn't it ! 👍

 

[Radracing]

^perfect.

Drivers usually overtake by brake diving on the inside. If this was normal corner, Vettel would have the edge and would not move right.

But he knew he was not in the best line for this particular corner and tried to push Webber. Not the other way around.

It's hard to push someone when your in front but it's easier to push and take someone out when your behind with full view of how much to just line up the car in a strait line and wait for contact and spinout or at least upset the car knowing that the car in front wants to take the racing line and then slowdown to watch the outcome. It's an old trick that's done by punters in GT online. and I'm pretty sure it's done a lot in real racing. Lets call it "HOLD 'N' PUNT" oh and I'm sure I'm going to get a lot of flak for this one. hehe!

 

[niky]

It's hard to push someone when your in front but it's easier topush and take someone out when your behind with full view of how much to just line up the car in a strait line and wait for contact and spinout or at least upset the car knowing that the car in front wants to take the racing line and then slowdown to watch the outcome. It's an old trick that's done by punters in GT online. and I'm pretty sure it's done a lot in real racing. Lets call it "HOLD 'N' PUNT" oh and I'm sure I'm going to get a lot of flak for this one. hehe!

I'm sure it's perfectly realistic to punt in F1. I also like to take jumping headshots off the sides of buildings in real life, too. And before I hit the ground, I screw the rest of the guy's buddies by lobbing a grenade up at them, right before I die a gory death. (If you don't fast-bind your weapons, your Counterstrike sessions will probably suck)

Given that F1 drivers can hardly see behind them, they've got to focus on the road ahead and try to keep all distractions at bay. Which is why most drivers seem genuinely surprised when they get punted off. You drive your drive and trust that the other guy doesn't mess it up. This is the pinnacle of motorsports, you don't expect people to barge you around as in grassroots-level touring cars.

 

[Radracing]

I'm sure it's perfectly realistic to punt in F1. I also like to take jumping headshots off the sides of buildings in real life, too. And before I hit the ground, I screw the rest of the guy's buddies by lobbing a grenade up at them, right before I die a gory death. (If you don't fast-bind your weapons, your Counterstrike sessions will probably suck)

Given that F1 drivers can hardly see behind them, they've got to focus on the road ahead and try to keep all distractions at bay. Which is why most drivers seem genuinely surprised when they get punted off. You drive your drive and trust that the other guy doesn't mess it up. This is the pinnacle of motorsports, you don't expect people to barge you around as in grassroots-level touring cars.

Seems payback can be a "B!TCH!" Webber paying back Vettle for this incident. We might see more of this then 'cuz it happens in the pinnacle of any motorsports. It's called racing incident or stupid driving as others would call it.

 

[Seismica]

Seems payback can be a "B!TCH!" Webber paying back Vettle for this incident. We might see more of this then 'cuz it happens in the pinnacle of any motorsports. It's called racing incident or stupid driving as others would call it.

Paying back? Both incidents were Vettel's fault.

 

[Radracing]

Paying back? Both incidents were Vettel's fault.

Yeah! and I see the next incident will be Vettles again punting Webber on purpose this time. This is going to be interesting to watch. Who said F1 was boring?

 

[Seismica]

Who said F1 was boring?

The media did.

They were wrong.

 

[Radracing]

Very selfish and reckless in my opinion.

Aaahhh! The young and the reckless. and this are the days of F1 lives which might endup in General Hospital.

 

[easyasashii]

Hi guys ! I found two interesting videos :

F1 Webber explains the Istanbul track - Turkey GP 2010


And what I would have been happy to see


Have a nice day !

EDIT : I'm not saying I would have been happy to see Webber pushing Vettel like Raffaele Giammaria "did"... !

 

[zed300]

2nd photo shows the 150 marker so what would be the brake point for that speed in that corner?

I did think it was the 200 marker in the first pic, so Vettel probably couldn't have made the pass fully and get over to the racing line.
After watching the sim video of Mark at Turkey, it seems he brakes at the 130-140 metre point. A little further out than I first thought, so Vettel was under pressure to get a decent bit of road for braking it seems.

 

[waggles]

Mark in those laps doesn't push-the talking is distracting for him.

He just runs the lap safely.

Also, another couple of images:

 

[J-PaP]

Looking at picture #1. Honestly if you were Vettel would you feel it is safe to brake for the next corner? I'm not sure if F1 cars are wider in the rear but if they are Vettel's rear wheel would have been on the grass in picture #1.

 

[PeterJB]

They are wider at the back, but only by a few inches at the most. He could well have touched the grass, because he kicked up some dust just before he hit Webber, and he said he "Lost the car".

 

[Radracing]

Mark in those laps doesn't push-the talking is distracting for him.

He just runs the lap safely.

Also, another couple of images:

Photo one is a given it would be too obvious if Weber didn't give Vettle space to pass and drive him into the grass. But Webbers tactic was to try to squeeze Vettle into the dirty line not run him off into the grass since they are teamates. So he did move over a bit but not enough to make sure there would be no contact.

But Vettle being naive into thinking that Webber would give some more space into the braking point to the right because they are teamates and would be the optimal line (100meter marker) to get setup for the next corner. Webber knew exactly what Vettle was going to do so he held his line until contact happened on photo 2 that was the only time he really moved over to give Vettle more room. Webber knew that slight contact like the one with Button and Hamilton or Alonso/Massa when Alonso was still with renault pointing to his sidepod after the race with tire marks(I wish I had a video of that). That this would upset Vettles car and that would give him the advantage for the next corner if he could pull it off or hoping Vettle would chicken out and stay on the dirty line. That would also be an advantage to Webber. Apparently that didn't work out exactly as planned and I'm sure Webber would be foolish to admit that that was the intention so I'll leave that to my honest opinion and I'm sure a lot of you guys would say otherwise.

I would have done exactly what Webber did except for the part of contact and would have just gone to the right in hopes of making a pass at the next corner. If not and lets say Webber was confident enough that he could take Vettle in the next lap then he would have just let him pass easily and race him cleanly. This would be the ultimate test of character of every race driver. David Hobbs said once or twice that in the old days race drivers would not pull stunts like this because if they caused an incident that it would most likely end to a fatality nowadays with all the safety engineering in the car the drivers seem to be taking more chances trying dirty moves that are very, very risky. I still say its a racing incident considering both drivers personalities and put blame on both of them. And if you would get into percentages on who's more at fault, well thats just depends on how you would look at a glass of water. Is it half empty or half full? It still goes both ways.

Side Note: If I was Vettle and I intended to go to the right I would have anticipated contact and get ready to react for the countersteer in case of contact. But he was totally surprised and even steered the wrongway after the hit. Now was that in reaction to just take Webber out with him or just inexperience?

 

[Dodzzz]

 

[Fastas]

But Vettle being naive into thinking that Webber would give some more space into the braking point to the right because that would be the optimal line (100meter marker) to get setup for the next corner. Webber knew exactly what Vettle was going to do so he held his line until contact happened on photo 2 that was the only time he really moved over to give Vettle more room.

That's how most of us see it - Webber did hold his position.

Webber knew that slight contact like the one with Button and Hamilton would upset Vettles car and that would give him the advantage for the next corner if he could pull it off or hoping Vettle would chicken out and stay on the dirty line. That would also be an advantage to Webber. Apparently that didn't work out exactly as planned and I'm sure Webber would be foolish to admit that that was the intention so I'll leave that to my honest opinion and I'm sure a lot of you guys would say otherwise.

You don't honestly believe that Webber intended to make contact do you? That's just ridiculous; I sometimes wonder what it takes to drive one of these cars. Having seen numerous successful racers-come-tv presenters try, it doesn't take much imagination to realise it must be incredibly hard. To even contemplate such a manoeuvre as to intentionally make contact with another car, apart from being wholly against the rules of the sport and, likely to end in a seriously long ban if not personal injury, would be insane.

 

[Famine]

So he did move over a bit but not enough to make sure there would be no contact.

I've not seen any evidence of this in photographs, video, steering wheel traces or any other medium. Webber's car was going down the hill in a straight line and at no point was the steering wheel turned left of centre.

 

[Radracing]

I've not seen any evidence of this in photographs, video, steering wheel traces or any other medium. Webber's car was going down the hill in a straight line and at no point was the steering wheel turned left of centre.

Webber didn't have to turn left he just stayed on course and wait for contact if that was his intention. Because for me if he wanted to be 100% sure there would be no contact he would have moved to the right already and just try to outbrake Vettle.

That's how most of us see it - Webber did hold his position.



You don't honestly believe that Webber intended to make contact do you? That's just ridiculous; I sometimes wonder what it takes to drive one of these cars. Having seen numerous successful racers-come-tv presenters try, it doesn't take much imagination to realise it must be incredibly hard. To even contemplate such a manoeuvre as to intentionally make contact with another car, apart from being wholly against the rules of the sport and, likely to end in a seriously long ban if not personal injury, would be insane.

And thats why I said he would be foolish to even admit that he tried to sqeaze him even just toward the dirty line. We will never know and only Webber will know what he was thinking at that very moment.

 

[Famine]

Webber didn't have to turn left he just stayed on course and wait for contact if that was his intention.

If they both drove in a straight line, there would have been no contact. Contact only arose because Vettel turned his wheel right before clearing Webber.

 

[Seismica]

I've not seen any evidence of this in photographs, video, steering wheel traces or any other medium. Webber's car was going down the hill in a straight line and at no point was the steering wheel turned left of centre.

Webber was turning right after the kink and then straightened his wheel going up the hill to block Vettel off (Normally they would have kept to the right, on the racing line).

He also turned right a split second before the point of contact.

But he never turned left, like you said.

 

[Radracing]

If they both drove in a straight line, there would have been no contact. Contact only arose because Vettel turned his wheel right before clearing Webber.

This is were I made the comment about the glass being half full or half empty. If Vettle just went straight and try to out brake Webber or if Webber just moved all the way to the right to make sure there was no contact and try to outbrake Vettle. Then we wouldn't be having this argument. So I blame both of them. and hopefully we can all get along.

 

[Famine]

This is were I made the comment about the glass being half full or half empty. If Vettle just went straight and try to out brake Webber or if Webber just moved all the way to the right to make sure there was no contact and try to outbrake Vettle. Then we wouldn't be having this argument. So I blame both of them. and hopefully we can all get along.

I am staggered that anyone can apportion any blame for the contact on Webber. Webber was the guy being passed and made no additional moves. Vettel chose to pass, chose which side he was going, chose to turn right while alongside his teammate (obviously not on purpose - I guess he thought he was past, like Jaime Alguersuari did to Karum Chandhok 4 weeks since).

Webber was driving down a hill in the middle of the track, with 1.5 car widths to his left and 3 car widths to his right. He didn't cause anything.

 

[hornet_burnout]

Oh look, Mr Max Mosley, say's it's Webber's fault... So it's gotta be!
/irony

http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/19255.html

Not that it surprises me... him having a completely wrong and wrongly based opinion solely on "Vettel was fastest". So was Button but Schumacher did not let him pass, nor Hamilton, he had to fight for it and vice versa. Nor him stating this opinion publicly after the team and drivers are trying to get some closure on the issue.

Always though he was... well, lacking "motorsports understanding".

 

[Radracing]

I am staggered that anyone can apportion any blame for the contact on Webber. Webber was the guy being passed and made no additional moves. Vettel chose to pass, chose which side he was going, chose to turn right while alongside his teammate (obviously not on purpose - I guess he thought he was past, like Jaime Alguersuari did to Karum Chandhok 4 weeks since).

Webber was driving down a hill in the middle of the track, with 1.5 car widths to his left and 3 car widths to his right. He didn't cause anything.

3 car widths is the key word and also the right side would be the optimal racing line so why not go right specially when he could see Vettle moving towards the racing line to the right. So Webber is partly to blame specially if he's got full view of Vettle and he knows he's in Vettles blind spot. Just like if you were driving on the right lane on the highway and the guys to your left is going for the exit on the right and dosen't see you. Do you hold your lane or slow down or pull further to the right to aviod contact?

 

[Famine]

3 car widths is the key word and also the right side would be the optimal racing line so why not go right specially when he could see Vettle moving towards the racing line to the right.

Because it's not his job to.

I know we've got to this stage where everything is done for F1 drivers, to protect them and not hurt their fragile egos - right down to Rob Smedley telling Massa where and when to turn - but an overtake is always the responsibility of the overtaking driver.

Webber parked his car in the middle of the frickin' track. Vettel could have gone anywhere he wanted. He went left and he turned right before he'd passed his teammate.

As for Webber seeing Vettel moving right - he was alongside him at 180mph. The first he knew of his teammate's stupidity was when Vettel clipped his front wing. In the 0.4s between Vettel being safe, driving straight and smashing into the side of his teammate, turning right, Webber did react to turn away from Vettel, but Vettel's manouevre was so violent he hadn't got a hope of avoiding him.

If Vettel can't even manage to pass a teammate safely when he's driving in a straight line, what is he doing in Formula One?

So Webber is partly to blame specially if he's got full view of Vettle and he knows he's in Vettles blind spot.

You're driving down the freeway in a straight line, one lane to your left, two to your right. A guy comes steaming up your left and, before passing you, swerves into your car with no warning causing a crash. Guess what? You're partly to blame for it.

Really?

 

[Radracing]

Because it's not his job to.

I know we've got to this stage where everything is done for F1 drivers, to protect them and not hurt their fragile egos - right down to Rob Smedley telling Massa where and when to turn - but an overtake is always the responsibility of the overtaking driver.

Webber parked his car in the middle of the frickin' track. Vettel could have gone anywhere he wanted. He went left and he turned right before he'd passed his teammate.

As for Webber seeing Vettel moving right - he was alongside him at 180mph. The first he knew of his teammate's stupidity was when Vettel clipped his front wing. In the 0.4s between Vettel being safe, driving straight and smashing into the side of his teammate, turning right, Webber did react to turn away from Vettel, but Vettel's manouevre was so violent he hadn't got a hope of avoiding him.

If Vettel can't even manage to pass a teammate safely when he's driving in a straight line, what is he doing in Formula One?



You're driving down the freeway in a straight line, one lane to your left, two to your right. A guy comes steaming up your left and, before passing you, swerves into your car with no warning causing a crash. Guess what? You're partly to blame for it.

Really?

No Webber didn't park it in the middle. If you watch the video in Vettels view before the pass Webber blocked right first (0:15 in video) then went left but Vettle was alongside already so he tried to sqeaze Vettle. But Vettle was ahead and started to drift right for position to the raceline so when you say straight. Straight to the dirty line or straight for the clean raceline? Natural reaction would be to head straight for the clean raceline which is to the right. Going straight for the dirtyline would only make sense if your know your side by side and the guy to your right won't move over.

Answer to comment two is that Webber new Vettle was intending to go right because he already did give him room to pass but was sqeasing him to the dirtyline. Vettle didn't go steaming or violently steer to the right. He was drifting slowly to the right to show his intention that he was aiming for the race line. The only time he steered violently to the right was when contact was made and his cars balance was upset and so was his ego.

 

[Famine]

No Webber didn't park it in the middle. If you watch the video in Vettels view before the pass Webber blocked right first then went left but Vettle was alongside already so he tried to sqeaze Vettle.

What utter nonsense.

Firstly, that's two moves - not legal. Secondly, Webber put it in the middle of the track because he got a crap run out of the corner - classic line defence. Thirdly, he didn't squeeze Vettel anywhere.

But Vettle was ahead and started to drift right for position to the raceline so when you say straight.

No drifting occurred. He went from straight ahead to turning right. Watch the on-board videos. He literally jerked the wheel right, while alongside Webber.

Answer to comment two is that Webber new Vettle was intending to go right because he already did give him room to pass but was sqeasing him to the dirtyline.

No, Webber knew Vettel would go left - again, textbook racing. Go for the inside line and outbrake. That's why he gave less room to the inside (but still more than enough for a car) and more to the outside. Very few drivers would go to the outside because you really do need an advantage to make a pass around the outside stick. The idea there is to force the other driver to make a decision - inside and outbrake (textbook), outside and hang on (difficult).

It was textbook positional defence from Webber and a textbook overtake from Vettel. He just steered right too soon - exactly like Alguersuari on Chandhok 4 weeks ago (for which Alguersuari got a penalty).

Vettle didn't go steaming or violently steer to the right. He was drifting slowly to the right to show his intention that he was aiming for the race line.

Dude, watch the in-car again. The gap between these two images is 50 metres, which at that speed is 0.6s:

In the space of 0.6s, Vettel goes from steering slightly left, to steering slightly right. That's a violent move in an F1 car. Webber? Straight ahead (slightly to the right, truth be told, as if giving his teammate more space...) in both frames - no squeezing, no turning, until he is clobbered by the idiot to his left.

 

[Dan_]

C'mon guys, I can't believe you're still discussing this.....

Vettel is guilty, it's clear by all images, all videos and all evidences. Webber defended his position clearly in a straight line.

If I were Mark, I would punch Seb.