2010 Formula One Turkish Grand Prix

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Had read on another forum the lap before Webber was told to change his mix to conserve fuel and Vettel was told to richen his mix up.

Any truth to that? Would explain why Vettel suddenly got the jump on Webber.

EDIT: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84050 confirms that Webber was in fuel saving mode at the time. Thought it was surprising seeing Vettel catch him so fast.
 
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Ardius
I don't think it warrants the FIA coming into penalise them though more than they already have been, they were punished with their DNF and 3rd place respectively.
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I would be interested to hear what if any opinion the FIA or Johnny Herbert/the stewards have. It appeared to me to be a fairly reckless manoeuvre which could and should have been avoided. I think both of the Red Bull drivers could mount a fairly credible argument on who was right but I think the key thing is to ensure it doesn't happen again and that both drivers understand that.

I have always had reservations on Vettel's ability and I have to say I think he has a 'gamers' mentality to mortality. Webber has also shown previously that he can and will be overly aggressive to defend a position. This doesn't sit well with me because it is a 'do or die' attitude, he never seems to consider 'living to fight another day' type of scenario.

Otherwise; what a great race to watch. I haven't felt that nervous for the whole duration of a race in a long time.
 
I think we all know how dirty Webber can be when defending for position. As for Vettle I think it was a little naive for him to think that Webber was just going to let him past cleanly. You can see clearly Webber was blocking and wasn't giving enough room while Vettle thought that since he was past his periferal vision of Webber that he would be able to go back into the racing line to take the proper apex with Webber giving him the racing line. But Webber being Webber did not want to give in. He wanted Vettle to take the tighter line so that he would lose momentum after the apex by slowing down. Purely a racing incident meant to happen with this two personalities. Personalities that surpasses common sense when it comes between two team mates. Hopefully they can sort that out or I think, we'll see a repeat of a Senna/Prost rivalry. Which can be exciting and frustrating to watch at the same time. hehe!

 
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J-PaP
Had read on another forum the lap before Webber was told to change his mix to conserve fuel and Vettel was told to richen his mix up.

Any truth to that? Would explain why Vettel suddenly got the jump on Webber.
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Back marker - Webber was held up slightly and that gave Vettel the run on him.

Edit: did anyone else see/read Horner's lips when, as the accident occurred, he seamed to say "Mark, move over"?
 
If Vettel and Webber were in different teams, it would be a very silly incident. Given that they are in the same team, it's even worse, and a reflection on the intense rivalry rumbling underneath.

There is a clear distinction between "Vettel turned to the right", and "Vettel turned suddenly to the right". In this case, Vettel did not turn sharply to the right (it looks like that from the track-cam, but look at the onboards). Actually Webber pulled to the right on the straight, and then he moved a bit to the left to provide as much squeeze as possible to Vettel. If they are opposing teams, this is called "racing". If they are team-mates, it's called "madness".

The reason Vettel turned to the right was probably because he was thinking of the better braking grip slightly to the right. In that situation, normally the other car (Webber) would just co-operate and move to the right, especially since that the corner was lost really. Webber decided he was going to put up a fight, and just held his ground. So I would classify it as a racing incident. However from a teams point of view, Webber should have not squeezed Vettel as much, and should have obeyed Vettel's movement approaching the braking zone.

As Christian Horner said; "The large mistake was that not enough room was given".

I don't want to talk down Webber; he's a great driver. I don't care who the other driver is, I'm just giving a common sense point of view, in particular from team perspective.
 
I personally blame Webber. Vettel was half car-length in front of Webber in the inside. Why on Earth would Webber continue squeazing Vettel, considering he's his teammate, and the overtaking maveuver was almost finished?
 
I'm sorry but, it might not have been a sharp right, but it was a turn that was made very fast, fast enough for Webber not to be able to react. If you watch the videos, Webber does react too late, he's not a maniac, he would have avoided contact if he could have.
Vettel turned in on Webber, not the other way around. It was also before a braking zone and before Vettel had cleared Webber, and certainly before Vettel could have expected to have fully passed Webber so that he could safely pull of that move - he was clearly trying pressure Webber which is no more clean than what Webber did mere seconds before hand.

Vettel didn't need to move to the right and he did it too fast for Webber to react in time. Why on earth would Webber be trying to pressure Vettel that far behind and being that close to him? Its ludicrous even to suggest this! (as the above poster just stated...though I don't see how that puts Webber in the blame, he wasn't pressuring Vettel at that point, he wasn't in the position to "pressure" him, merely cause an accident.)
Why are people suggesting Webber turned into Vettel???? Vettel's onboard clearly shows him turning right into Webber! Webber merely drove in effectively a straight line!
 
It's more a case of playing chicken Webber not giving in and Vettle thinking Webber would give in since they are teammates. As far as Vettle moving right to fast I don't think so since he knew Webber was to his right and that would take them both out but Vettle thinking Webber would just move over or slow down earlier to let him past. But that wasn't meant to be considering they are moving over hundred of miles an hour with split second decision to give or not to give. And that my folks is racing.
 
tibiquera
I personally blame Webber. Vettel was half car-length in front of Webber in the inside. Why on Earth would Webber continue squeazing Vettel, considering he's his teammate, and the overtaking maveuver was almost finished?
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I think the point is Webber was not squeezing Vettel, he was holding his line. It was Vettel who moved, towards Webber, and therefore causing the accident. Vettel needed the space to make the corner and without that space the move would probably have ended in a collision further up the track anyway.

The real question I would like to hear the answer to is why did Vettel think it would be a good idea to try the inside line. Using Button's move on Hamilton as an example, Button knew that the ultimate track position would be won by the turn of the final corner and not entering the first turn of the chicane.
 
Fastas
The real question I would like to hear the answer to is why did Vettel think it would be a good idea to try the inside line. Using Button's move on Hamilton as an example, Button knew that the ultimate track position would be won by the turn of the final corner and not entering the first turn of the chicane.
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Because that was the position left open by Webber at the time while he was trying to block for position. Thats what makes Webber a dificult driver to pass because he will try to block you until the last second and give you the disadvantage line for the opening and then sqeeze you more to slow you down to lose your momentum. That would be the fine art of blocking and he has it downright until the stewards says otherwise.

I think this is were as a race driver you need to know the drivers psyche you race with and know what the other driver is going to do in certain situations. As in this case knowing Webber he will not give in considering his style of blocking. You can hear that a lot from race commentators on how Webber is notorious when it comes to his blocking.
 
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Radracing
I think this is were as a race driver you need to know the drivers psyche you race with and know what the other driver is going to do in certain situations. As in this case knowing Webber he will not give in considering his style of blocking. You can hear that a lot from race commentators on how Webber is notorious when it comes to his blocking.
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Indeed, and this is where Vettel made a mistake, a very big mistake. There is no reason why Webber should have had to move over at the point in time, they weren't in the braking area and Webber was in fact turning to the right a split second before impact.
The facts are Webber's wheel was pointing straight and then slightly to the right before impact and Vettel's was clearly going right. Vettel caused the accident.

Even as teammates, Button wouldn't have moved over for Hamilton in the same scenario either - why should he? Vettel already had the corner before the accident, so Webber had no obligation to give Vettel more space considering Vettel had already done everything needed to secure the place.
 
Radracing
*Prost vs Senna vid*
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Except in that scenario the lead car (Prost) turned in on Senna.

This is the other way around. Vettel cost Webber the race win and quite a few championship points too.

Once Vettel was alongside him though, there was always going to be either a) contact or b) enough time lost for Hamilton to pass. It was a lose-lose situation for Red Bull when Vettel made the move, knowing Webber would not yield.
 
I've just watched the BBC F1 forum...some very disturbing thoughts about Webber's position in Red Bull. Webber(responding to questions about turning his engine down): "Dig deeper".

autosport
Q. Is there any reason why he had a jump on you on that particular lap?

MW: Hmm. Maybe.

Q. Did you come out of the previous corner a bit slower on that lap?

MW: Hmm. You guys need to dig more, somewhere else.
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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84051
 
Webber's got every right to do that but they're teammates who've been told to give each other room. Vettel was passed Webber. The racing line was on the other side and they should be making their way over before the incident happened. Also, they have Hamilton right behind them. Vettel knows they should be moving over slightly by now and expects Mark to do the same, not completely move over but at least a bit more so they both have a good run through the corner and Vettel still has it all to do and Webber could re-pass. If they continue to squabble on that side, they're going to have to brake too much or go very deep and Hamilton would just drive around the squabble or have a great opportunity.

Another factor is pushing Vettel to a car width over the bumpy crest and the dirty side of the track is risky for yourself. We see Vettel's car a little twitchy and then seems to wander over. Seb said he lost the car and to me it does look like he needed more room as the car was moving about. Not sure whether he just let it wander a bit or just assumed Mark would get over and accept he's passing and was a bit hasty moving over so quickly to make the apex.

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Webber's instinct was to pressure Vettel and it's not turned out too bad for him really. But the team won't be liking Webber right now.
 
hornet_burnout
Vettel still acts as the #1 driver on the team AND on F1...................... He discard Webber's accomplishments like in qualifying saying "there's no points in qualif"............... This time he just expected Webber to have made his life easier. That is not going to happen. The sooner he realizes Webber is on top of the game, that he's is worthy of it and on par with the best, the better for both of them.
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The bit in bold....is that really what Vettel said? This coming from the guy who, at the beginning of the season was celebrating every pole as if it was a race win?
 
chromatic9
Webber's got every right to do that but they're teammates who've been told to give each other room. Vettel was passed Webber. The racing line was on the other side and they should be making their way over before the incident happened. Also, they have Hamilton right behind them. Vettel knows they should be moving over slightly by now and expects Mark to do the same, not completely move over but at least a bit more so they both have a good run through the corner and Vettel still has it all to do and Webber could re-pass. If they continue to squabble on that side, they're going to have to brake too much or go very deep and Hamilton would just drive around the squabble or have a great opportunity.

Another factor is pushing Vettel to a car width over the bumpy crest and the dirty side of the track is risky for yourself. We see Vettel's car a little twitchy and then seems to wander over. Seb said he lost the car and to me it does look like he needed more room as the car was moving about. Not sure whether he just let it wander a bit or just assumed Mark would get over and accept he's passing and was a bit hasty moving over so quickly to make the apex.

Webber's instinct was to pressure Vettel and it's not turned out too bad for him really. But the team won't be liking Webber right now.
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Why should the team hate on Webber? He didn't make the mistake!

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We have seen millions of overtakes before at a variety of tracks where the inside line is the dirty side, and a disadvantage to be on. We have also always seen the driver on the inside stick to his line without ramming the other driver off the road, teammate or not, and we have also seen many a driver stick to his line like Webber did without having to worry about mental teammates moving across.
Vettel already had the corner, but Webber had already given him room. Vettel was on the dirty side, yes, and maybe he would want to be on the clean side but he can't expect Webber just to vanish.

In fact, more often than not, the outside driver would usually try to pressure the inside driver further by moving across and squeezing him into the inside, but Webber did leave him space and was momentarily moving to the outside in preparation for the corner. But Vettel decided he wanted his line early, felt his teammate should just move right out the way and made a very clumsy error.

There is no way this is Webber's fault, all the evidence I have seen suggests although he was initially aggressive before the overtake he is not at all to blame for the incident.
 
Ardius
Why should the team hate on Webber? He didn't make the mistake!
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Have you not heard what Chris Horner said after the race?

I would stick up for Mark myself but the team has told the drivers to give each other room. Vettel had passed and they should be making their way over to the racing line and not allow Hamilton a chance. It was a selfish move and quite risky at that location which you'd expect on an opposing team driver. Considering everything I doubt some of the Red Bull team ie the main people at Red Bull would be liking Mark right now but not "hate on him".
 
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I think this quote from Christian Horner tells it as it is
BBC
"Mark has put Seb on the dirty side, he gave him just enough room and Seb cut across aggressively. He was a long way down the side but neither yielded and the net result is everybody loses."
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Mark could have given more room to a team mate, Vettel should have know that Webber isn't going to just pull-aside for him.

They both played their parts in what was a silly incident between team mates.
 
Mark can`t dissolve on air, it was naive from Vettel to think that Webber would just fall back and let him pass. Sebastian is clearly responsible for what happened IMHO...
 
ExigeEvan
How exactly? There's a monumental difference between pulling to the side and giving some room.
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Well, I think Webber gave Vettel enough room. My thinking is that enough = Webber did not force Vettel off the track or put him in a position where he had no other option than to crash; he had the option to back out or go straight on.

So, on the basis that Webber gave Vettel enough room, why should he move over? Should he move over because his team wants him to? That would be team orders; yielding a position for the benefit of the team.

As the defender of the line, Webber had the track position and therefore the right to defend the position he had. It was not for Vettel to decide he can have the track position that Webber had. If Vettel held his line or executed a over-taking manoeuvre then there is no case for discussion, other than that of an extraordinary overtake, but this wasn't the case.
 
Well Chris Horners says

"the large mistake remains that not enough room was given" and "its right to let the drivers race but especially when in the same team its important they give a little bit respect and concede if ones got a run on the other"

which Vettel had and Hamilton was right behind plus the racing line needs to be taken. Webber should concede and start to move over. They've gone quite far past the racing line and really once the clear run was made, Webber should've allowed more room to not jeopardize both of them.

I think Vettel was wrong or hasty to move over and I would post the same evidence how Vettel messed it up. You can't just expect Mark to yield and he just stuck to his guns and perfectly right to do so but a team has a different view in this situation.
 
Vettel took an opportunistic move, which was unexpected and un-needed. Webber saw vettel and should've given a little more room, driving at 190mph in a space 2 inches wider than your car isn't going to be easy. To be honest Vettel is at fault but the entire thing could have been avoided if Webber took finishing the race into concern more than stopping Vettel getting 1st place.
 
The eventual incident aside, I don't think Webber was at fault for holding his position. I also think Vettel was wrong to opt to try and pass on the left and not the right.

I don't care what Horner says, he is not a racing driver. I don't watch F1 to see some guy with a nervous twitch in his leg sat on a high-chair, I would watch tennis if that were the case.
 
Horner doesn't have his job because he's an idiot. But he isn't giving us the full picture in what he says. Decent bloke though.
 
Fastas
Well, I think Webber gave Vettel enough room. My thinking is that enough = Webber did not force Vettel off the track or put him in a position where he had no other option than to crash; he had the option to back out or go straight on.

So, on the basis that Webber gave Vettel enough room, why should he move over? Should he move over because his team wants him to? That would be team orders; yielding a position for the benefit of the team.

As the defender of the line, Webber had the track position and therefore the right to defend the position he had. It was not for Vettel to decide he can have the track position that Webber had. If Vettel held his line or executed a over-taking manoeuvre then there is no case for discussion, other than that of an extraordinary overtake, but this wasn't the case.
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There's no point continuing this dicussion because you've proven you're not looking to dicuss. Your "opinion" is firmly set that Webber has no fault at all, and that it is all Vettel's point. I've argued neither to the contrary, yet you've somehow tried to make my opinion a "it was Webber's fault" view.
 
ExigeEvan
There's no point continuing this dicussion because you've proven you're not looking to dicuss. Your "opinion" is firmly set that Webber has no fault at all, and that it is all Vettel's point. I've argued neither to the contrary, yet you've somehow tried to make my opinion a "it was Webber's fault" view.
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I am very willing to discuss but, as you implied, 'Webber could have moved over' is to suggest that Webber did something wrong. I'm merely saying that Webber didn't need to move over,...if you don't agree then I don't have a problem with that.

As Webber said 'there was plenty of race race left to run'. I think the more pertinent discussion maybe held on the topic of why Vettel did what he did.
 
As for the 'plenty of race left' thing. Vettel had to go for it around that time, if you have a shot on the leader then you go for it, next lap he might step on it again and leave you trailing...
 

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