2010 Formula One Turkish Grand Prix

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The whole incident is pretty clear to me, Vettel made a mistake by pulling to the right and Webber made a mistake by not giving enough room... 50/50 really.
 
interludes
I'm sorry, Fernando, but there's no polite way to put this: you suck.

Actually, there probably is a politer way to put it, but let's be perfectly honest here: you earned it this time, mate. Twelfth in qualifying is understandable; it can't aways be your day. But you then spent most of the race looking at Petrov's rear wing despite being told that he'd crack in due course. You had him - twenty laps later. And then you killed his weekend when you cut across him, despite knowing that you had the racing line. A thoroughly Rejectful performance.
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Renault have a better car.

Cutting across, well it's not exactly easy to pass in F1 when you have about the same pace. Alonso left him enough room and Petrov should have backed out. You should probably criticize Hamilton too for touching Button to get his place back. Oh and Vettel too and Button for lingering down in fourth until the Red Bulls crashed.


Anyway interesting Q&A on formula1.com.
The most interesting chunks to me:
Q: Red Bull team principal Christian Horner said he didn’t believe it was Vettel’s fault. Is this the official opinion of the team?
HM: Well, in the situation Sebastian was in, he had no other choice than to act the way he did.

Q: Will you change something in the future to avoid such an incident happening again?
HM: Well, first of all we always told them that it is a strict no-go to go to the wall with each other. Whatever happens they always have to give room to the other. I hope that all the people involved will think a bit more in the future before acting.

Q: Is it true that the team gave instructions to Mark Webber’s race engineer to let Sebastian Vettel pass because otherwise Lewis (Hamilton)would be able to overtake?
HM: That is not correct, because that would mean a team order. We informed Mark about the situation and it is for the driver to decide. The fact is that if Sebastian hadn’t passed he would have been overtaken by Hamilton.

Q: Why was Sebastian so much quicker than Mark so suddenly?
HM: I think it was in the tyres.
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About the incident I don't think it was entirely Vettel's fault. Yes, he did cause the accident by moving over. But this is a team sport and both of the drivers have to also think about the constructor's title. So in that interest once Mark saw Vettel alongside, he should have given him the room. Vettel pretty much had him if not for moving over.

Also on the Button and Hamilton fight: There were some comments from various people including Hamilton about how they respect each other and give room. It didn't seem like that in my eyes. I thought they were also going to crash. And as I mentioned above, they made contact.
 
ROAD_DOGG33J
Also on the Button and Hamilton fight: There were some comments from various people including Hamilton about how they respect each other and give room. It didn't seem like that in my eyes. I thought they were also going to crash. And as I mentioned above, they made contact.
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They at least gave each other enough room to make the corner. They may have touched slightly, but not violently. Neither cut the other off... but Hamilton sure as hell wasn't going to make it easy on Button.

Perhaps for the first time this season, we're seeing the no-refueling rule raise strategy issues amongst the front-running teams, where they've had to back of a heck of a lot on fueling, leading to overtaking opportunities like this.

Once all the data from this race has been crunched, the FIA may well be able to force tighter limits on fuel supply to make the racing more interesting... well... if they don't, they should.

Fantastically exciting race... if not for the right reasons. Alonso took his time getting around Petrov, but as we've seen in other races, the Renault's incredible corner exit speed makes it a difficult car to pass in any situation. The Webber-Vettel clash was a face-palmer, but it did look like Vettel lost control due to being on the dirty side of the track... not really anything either driver could do much about... they're both paid to race and rolling over for anyone else just isn't racing.

Oh, and... go Schumacher! :lol:
 
niky
They at least gave each other enough room to make the corner. They may have touched slightly, but not violently. Neither cut the other off... but Hamilton sure as hell wasn't going to make it easy on Button.
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It doesn't really take much. It could have ended bad with a cut tire, wheel hopping over another wheel, or severely damaged front wing.
 
Way I see it, Webber didn't make it any easier for Vettel to pass as he would anyone else but Vettel made a error under pressure. Vettel made a mistake and if I was Webber I would just be happy he was able to keep going and rake in healthy points.

As for Red Bull, I imagine Red Bull will lay down some unofficial guidelines for both drivers to reduce the chance of a team collision again.
 
ROAD_DOGG33J
It doesn't really take much. It could have ended bad with a cut tire, wheel hopping over another wheel, or severely damaged front wing.
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They weren't locked up and rubbing bodywork like Vettel and Webber...
 
niky
but it did look like Vettel lost control due to being on the dirty side of the track... not really anything either driver could do much about...
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Vettel was fairly sure he was in control when interviewed after the race.

The thing about this incident that makes me blame Vettel 100% is that Webber had already given him the room for them to race down to the turn 12 side-by-side. Webber had no reason to expect Vettel to pull over to the side at that point - as I said before, there have been millions of similar overtakes and they have all been successfully completed.
Webber had no obligation to make it any easier...any easier would be clear team orders or a very defeatist approach from Mark. Both drivers are fighting for the drivers championship, both were on the same points. Mark had every right to defend his position and I think he did it aggressively but fairly.
The onus was on Vettel to pull off the overtake with respect to Mark's defense, which he utterly failed at and bizarrely assumed Mark would just shift out of the way and give him the best line.
 
From where he was sat, and due to his speed advantage, Vettel may have thought he was ahead and could therefore move in front of Webber, although even if he had moved slightly later he would have hit Webber's wing, and they would have both needed to cross the track to take turn 12 properly, which they were running out of time to do.
 
I don't think Vettel honestly thought that, if he did, he was certainly leaving himself no margin for error! And it would still put Vettel to blame.
 
PeterJB
From where he was sat, and due to his speed advantage, Vettel may have thought he was ahead and could therefore move in front of Webber, although even if he had moved slightly later he would have hit Webber's wing, and they would have both needed to cross the track to take turn 12 properly, which they were running out of time to do.
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Vettel didn't move to the right after overtaking and got a rear punctured, or even "pushed" Webber with a flick of the wheel for him to give him room. He rammed his team mate because he just "imagined" Webber would have moved over, disappeared or slowed down for him. As very well illustrated here:

Ardius
fghgf.jpg
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He barely had his front wheel over when he turned in...

Then he complains to Webber when the cars haven't even stopped spinning, and ends up doing this for all the cameras to see:

Ardius
l_sne27626-2
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Absolutely no chance of a bit of guilt on his part. He's #1. Gods gift to the cockpit... or at least that's how he acts, and I hate this kind of driver. They are dangerous and have no place in the front pack of the F1 game. Unless you want so see more crashes and eventually someone getting killed.
 
hornet_burnout
Vettel didn't move to the right after overtaking and got a rear punctured, or even "pushed" Webber with a flick of the wheel for him to give him room. He rammed his team mate because he just "imagined" Webber would have moved over, disappeared or slowed down for him. As very well illustrated here:



He barely had his front wheel over when he turned in...

Then he complains to Webber when the cars haven't even stopped spinning, and ends up doing this for all the cameras to see:



Absolutely no chance of a bit of guilt on his part. He's #1. Gods gift to the cockpit... or at least that's how he acts, and I hate this kind of driver. They are dangerous and have no place in the front pack of the F1 game. Unless you want so see more crashes and eventually someone getting killed.
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You make it sound like he's spent too much time with Schumacher...
0411-schumacher-vettel.jpg


:lol:
 
Ardius
l_sne27626-2
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hornet_burnout
Absolutely no chance of a bit of guilt on his part. He's #1. Gods gift to the cockpit... or at least that's how he acts, and I hate this kind of driver. They are dangerous and have no place in the front pack of the F1 game. Unless you want so see more crashes and eventually someone getting killed.
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Well I'm totally in-line with hornet_burnout's view of him. I don't like this kind of driver. I mean, he knows he drives the best out there but that doesn't mean he can rule everything out. He only think of himself. He has talents but if that's how he acts, then I'm sorry. These things can certainly happen in motorsports and when it happens, just take it away. Don't act silly like that. Didn't he looked on the mirror before cutting across? Or is it that the side mirrors being again, really useless.

Me, being also an RB fan totally disssapointed with this. I don't mind them making contact as it will happen in racing anyways. What makes me very dissapointed is... that picture. I'm sorry.
 
haitch40
It was 100% vettels fault unless the car had something to do with it.
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Um, how so?

1) A driver cannot see his own front wing - if he's lucky, he can just see the tops of his tyres
2) A driver cannot turn his head and see either side of the car
3) Vettel and Webber were at the fastest point on the circuit
4) They were entering a heavy braking zone
5) Both drivers were at the point where their fuel conservation strategy came into play andno doubt talking with the team

So I don't understand how you seem to think Vettel could somehow see Webber.
 
interludes
Um, how so?

1) A driver cannot see his own front wing - if he's lucky, he can just see the tops of his tyres
2) A driver cannot turn his head and see either side of the car
3) Vettel and Webber were at the fastest point on the circuit
4) They were entering a heavy braking zone
5) Both drivers were at the point where their fuel conservation strategy came into play andno doubt talking with the team

So I don't understand how you seem to think Vettel could somehow see Webber.
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Vettel knew Webber was there, if he didn't he has terrible judgement of his own speed and spatial awareness. He's just overtaken his teammate mere split seconds ago, why on earth would he assume because he cannot see him, he is not still there?
What you are arguing is rediculous - Vettel's vision is not needed to overtake cleanly. If it was so, how did Sutil overtake Kobayashi at the same corner? Or Button and Hamilton go toe-to-toe? Magic? Psychic ability?

We have had high cockpit sides for a long time and we have had very few incidents like this. It clearly points to Vettel somehow making an assumption Webber wouldn't be there either due to an error on his own part in judging his relative speed (unlikely) or assuming Webber would just move out of the way.
Either way, this is Vettel's fault.

This is just coming across as a reel of excuses really, talking to the team? Again, if Vettel was pushing the radio button and jabbering on while overtaking Webber, this just points to even further arrogance! :lol: Likewise, I doubt the team would be shouting down Vettel or Webbers ears during such an intense moment of racing - this is just common sense.
 
interludes
Um, how so?

1) A driver cannot see his own front wing - if he's lucky, he can just see the tops of his tyres
2) A driver cannot turn his head and see either side of the car
3) Vettel and Webber were at the fastest point on the circuit
4) They were entering a heavy braking zone
5) Both drivers were at the point where their fuel conservation strategy came into play andno doubt talking with the team

So I don't understand how you seem to think Vettel could somehow see Webber.
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Because even though vettel didn't have much room.
1. He chose the wrong side to pass webber.
2. He should have waited to send one up the inside of the corner.
Although i have a feeling he might have done an Alonso and hit the brakes on the white line which would have been 40% webbers fault for not giving enough room.

Anyhow whats done is done and im sure the media will get the truth eventually.
 
interludes
Um, how so?

1) A driver cannot see his own front wing - if he's lucky, he can just see the tops of his tyres
2) A driver cannot turn his head and see either side of the car
3) Vettel and Webber were at the fastest point on the circuit
4) They were entering a heavy braking zone
5) Both drivers were at the point where their fuel conservation strategy came into play andno doubt talking with the team

So I don't understand how you seem to think Vettel could somehow see Webber.
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1 through 4. If you do not know when you are still alongside someone you have no place whatsoever in a F1 car. I'm certain that Vettel knew where Webber was and just assumed that he would move over. It reeks of unspoken team orders to me.

5 You cannot seriously say that you think that both drivers were on the radio during this passing attempt?
 
interludes
Um, how so?

1) A driver cannot see his own front wing - if he's lucky, he can just see the tops of his tyres
2) A driver cannot turn his head and see either side of the car
3) Vettel and Webber were at the fastest point on the circuit
4) They were entering a heavy braking zone
5) Both drivers were at the point where their fuel conservation strategy came into play andno doubt talking with the team

So I don't understand how you seem to think Vettel could somehow see Webber.
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So if he couldn't see it, it's ok to move over...?

Vettel should know by know that a car does not vanish as soon as your front wheel has past it. He's been racing open wheels for how long?
 
haitch40
Because even though vettel didn't have much room.
1. He chose the wrong side to pass webber.
2. He should have waited to send one up the inside of the corner.
Although i have a feeling he might have done an Alonso and hit the brakes on the white line which would have been 40% webbers fault for not giving enough room.

Anyhow whats done is done and im sure the media will get the truth eventually.
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Vettel didn't really choose to pass Webber there, it was more a natural line to take, at speed you tend to drift wide and the preceding bend was to the right, so he carried his speed to the left past Webber. Nothing wrong here and it set him up to take turn 12 on the inside - a dominant position to control the race.

I agree he should have waited, and continued side-by-side. He can't expect to have the clean line when he is overtaking still, he has taken a line and he should stick to it.

Brakes on white lines doesn't come into it - they were no where near the braking zone which is why Webber was surprised Vettel was even moving across the track! At the point of contact Vettel was not on the white lines either and had plenty of space to turn left a bit. Vettel is adamant he was in control too.
 
This incident is an example of Vettel's lack of knowledge and skill in the heat of the moment, he made a costly assumption that Webber would veer over to the right after he nosed ahead, and it back fired spectacularly for him, but for Webber thankfully, he was able to come away with some points.

Mark will take no part in bowing down and accepting that he has just lost P1 to his team mate without a fight, certainly not after Malaysia, Vettel should have been aware of this.
 
Why didn't Vettel try to get to the pitlane?

It wasn't too far from where he parked his car and had the team decided he was still good to go he could have still scored some points.
 
Louie_Schumii
Why didn't Vettel try to get to the pitlane?

It wasn't too far from where he parked his car and had the team decided he was still good to go he could have still scored some points.
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Probably stalled the car while he was trying to gesticulate to Webber his anger. :lol:

Seriously though, it probably lost the engine in the spin. The anti-stall doesn't always work. He may have assumed the car was too damaged though.
 
InvincibleM5
Well I'm totally in-line with hornet_burnout's view of him. I don't like this kind of driver. I mean, he knows he drives the best out there but that doesn't mean he can rule everything out. He only think of himself. He has talents but if that's how he acts, then I'm sorry. These things can certainly happen in motorsports and when it happens, just take it away. Don't act silly like that. Didn't he looked on the mirror before cutting across? Or is it that the side mirrors being again, really useless.

Me, being also an RB fan totally disssapointed with this. I don't mind them making contact as it will happen in racing anyways. What makes me very dissapointed is... that picture. I'm sorry.
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He just couldn't make a proper judgment when he tried to overtake Webber, he lacked the knowledge of the race that drivers need to remember when they have every race held in one year. He assumed Webber would let Vettel pass but he didn't really need to get so angry because he finally couldn't and was compelled to be ruled out of the race...

Certainly, it would've resulted making lots of Red Bull fans disappointed to see his rude attitude he showed after he got out of his own car, although car crashes are considered they usually happen during a race, I want him to understand what the racing is. Though he has a great talent...
 
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Ardius
Probably stalled the car while he was trying to gesticulate to Webber his anger. :lol:

Seriously though, it probably lost the engine in the spin. The anti-stall doesn't always work. He may have assumed the car was too damaged though.
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Lol.

From Seb's onboard 2.20 onwards -



- his car was still spinning and he still had the time to wave his hand at Mark!
 
I noticed in the video that Vettel's car can be heard backing off when he's alongside Webber. I imagine from this he was trying to keep off the grass. Plus, they were both approaching the braking zone, and would need move over for the corner, only Vettel did it too fast for Webber to react.

EDIT: Not on the video above, one on the previous page.
 
PeterJB
I noticed in the video that Vettel's car can be heard backing off when he's alongside Webber. I imagine from this he was trying to keep off the grass.

EDIT: Not on the video above, one on the previous page.
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at the time of impact vettel was a good 3 or 4 feet away from the grass.
 
After seeing the video again i think its 100% vettels fault. He tried the scare tactic and it failed.

It was worse than (I think. It might have been different people) Algasuari on Chandhok in spain.
 

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