2012 European Grand Prix

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Fryto
Article 20.3 of the 2012 FIA Sporting Regulations: "More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted. Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off‐line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner."

According to this article Hamilton did not do anything wrong. He left space for one car while approaching the corner. As Maldonado didn't pass him before the corner it's Hamilton's right to take the corner on the regular racing line.
If you don't agree, try looking at it the other way around. Suppose you're overtaking a car on the inside, you'll also continue on the racing line and kind of force the other car to give up its position. This is also exactly what Maldonado (at least I think it was him) did when overtaking Webber at the last corner before start/finish
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Yeah Hamilton didn't do anything wrong on corner entry which is what that regulation applies to, but he just plowed his way through the corner like there wasn't a car beside him, though there indeed was and it was even partially ahead of him under braking. All the way through the corner Maldonado was entirely beside Hamilton (nose up to the driver's cockpit, I think that's significant overlap) but Hamilton was still allowed to just push him out. I guess that's allowed then...

I would think it would make overtaking a lot easier though, just get your car on the inside line and you're given a free pass to push the other guy out.
 
OK8
Yeah Hamilton didn't do anything wrong on corner entry which is what that regulation applies to, but he just plowed his way through the corner like there wasn't a car beside him, though there indeed was and it was even partially ahead of him under braking. All the way through the corner Maldonado was entirely beside Hamilton (nose up to the driver's cockpit, I think that's significant overlap) but Hamilton was still allowed to just push him out. I guess that's allowed then...

I would think it would make overtaking a lot easier though, just get your car on the inside line and you're given a free pass to push the other guy out.
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But overlap isn't enough. Front wing to cockpit is still behind. You are in front at the point your wing is ahead of theirs and ONLY then. Watching the video of the pass earlier (with comparison to Grosjean's move earlier) you see that Maldonado was never even fully alongside. I will watch the video again in a second, but I then believed that Maldonado ran wide on his own accord due to outbraking himself so the rest is elementary....
 
pezzarinho17
But overlap isn't enough. Front wing to cockpit is still behind. You are in front at the point your wing is ahead of theirs and ONLY then. Watching the video of the pass earlier (with comparison to Grosjean's move earlier) you see that Maldonado was never even fully alongside. I will watch the video again in a second, but I then believed that Maldonado ran wide on his own accord due to outbraking himself so the rest is elementary....
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I doubt Maldonado outbraked himself. Never even fully alongside? He's ahead at turn in, neck and neck at apex, just out of wheel-to-wheel distance when he gets pushed out and after that he tries to go round the left hander normally (at which point Lewis could've left him a smidgen of room and they would've continued to race normally) but is on the kerb and gets understeer.
 
OK8
Is this true? If it is, it changes everything.

I thought you're supposed to leave room on the "other line" which ever you decide to take. Other people overtook from the outside there and weren't pushed to the run off area, so I was amazed at how people were justifying Hamilton's actions. If you're allowed to push others like that (leave no room at all on the outside) then I guess there's nothing wrong with that, but I don't think that's clean racing.
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Not really - it's always been allowed. It's the responsibility of the overtaking driver to do so safely. The defending driver needs to "leave room" - you're not allowed to run a driver into a wall - but here the room that was left was the absolutely massive run-off area.

Pastor chose not use the run-off. He chose to attempt a ridiculous, dangerous re-entry to the circuit - failing to take account of the beaching effect of the kerbs - which resulted in him smashing into the side of another driver who was, quite rightly occupying most of the racing line.

If Badgift was racing smart, he wouldn't have even tried that overtake - he'd have waited for the safe option like everyone else did, because time was not on Hamilton's side. The commentators even said "Pastor needs to race smart here and pick the right moment - not get caught up in any unpleasantness", just as he went to outbrake a car he'd just seen outbraking Raikkonen for a lap...
 
OK8
I doubt Maldonado outbraked himself.
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I did watch it again after and quite right, he didn't outbrake himself. Hamilton did run him out of track, which happens VERY regularly (not just with these 2 drivers either). It is accepted that if ahead then you can run the person behind out of room and they are to yield.
One example of same thing, Schumacher defends up to the edge of the track and Webber is forced wide. I think this happened to Kimi as well and others at turn 11 (where Hamilton and Maldonado clashed) in the same race so rules can't have changed that quickly.

EDIT: Sorry for double post, not sure what happened there.
 
pezzarinho17
Exactly my point proven. Before the win, I don't remember seeing potential. He has won a race now though so "suddenly" he has potential, which I agree for every other single race winning driver. For instance Rosberg showed potential LONG before China this year and it was inevitable he would be a GP winner in a matter of time. I don't see Maldonado progressing his career beyond his Venezuelan money though, and a quick look through the GP2 field shows there are more drivers where that money came from as well.
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This isn't even worth arguing. He won a Formula one race for christ sakes, you don't fluke wins on a track like Catalunya. Anyone who has the pace to beat Fernando Alonso in a car of very similar if not slower pace has potential to be brilliant. This is the deal; He's a fast driver. He has been massively funded by oil money but he's quick enough to be a winner and in time a consistent and more reliable driver. None of this is deniable. He's been quick all season and most of the time absolutely trashed his team mate. You might not like him, and that's fine because he has driven like a dick at times, but he's quick enough and that my friend is not up for discussion.
 
pezzarinho17
Exactly my point proven. Before the win, I don't remember seeing potential. He has won a race now though so "suddenly" he has potential, which I agree for every other single race winning driver. For instance Rosberg showed potential LONG before China this year and it was inevitable he would be a GP winner in a matter of time. I don't see Maldonado progressing his career beyond his Venezuelan money though, and a quick look through the GP2 field shows there are more drivers where that money came from as well.
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He showed quite a lot of potential at Monaco in 2011, he was on his way to a 6th place finish before getting taken out by Hamilton. Quite the opposite form this year.

But there's no denying that he's a fast driver, the bad part is that he's constantly making mistakes and endangering others by doing so. It's not like this is the first time, it's happening again and again and he doesn't seem to be learning form it. If he continues like this he needs to be severely reprimanded.

And while money did get him where he is today, he has shown that he has enough talent to cut it in F1.
 
Fryto
:D

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An example of wheel-contact (the hit from the wheels touching is more than enough to damage the steering or force the steering wheel to turn). And this is the best example of intentional contact? This is probably the least-stupid move Maldonaldo has ever done - maybe running so wide and hitting Grosjean was stupid but it was kind of a natural racing incident.

I genuinely believe the incident at Valencia was not intentional contact, just very stupid driving. I don't think Maldonaldo decided to take Hamilton out on purpose - he just seems to completely lack a head for racing wheel-to-wheel. Basically I don't think he thought through what he was doing.

That or Maldonaldo is far better at masking his motives than Schumacher! :lol:

I'm not a fan of Maldonaldo at all or his dumb driving. But I think some people are beating him just a little too much and I don't like to see people using examples like the one above where its not really backing up what you are saying (being careful here not to say that that video was an accident, as quite clearly its still Maldonaldo's fault - its just not as blatant aggression as it might seem).

Maldonaldo needs to qualify himself away from trouble. It seems as soon as he gets wheel-to-wheel with a driver who isn't going to move out of his way, he risks retirement. While he might get away with shoving Raikkonen around the track, as soon as he comes across a Hamilton, Kobayashi or Schumacher he's going to always end up in accidents. Maybe he's been listening to (Ayrton) Senna too much.
 
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Well, you know what they say, what goes around comes around. In my opinion it couldn't have happened to a nicer more deserving guy. I do find it a bit rich though, Hamilton accusing another driver of hot headed stupid moves :crazy:
 
MustangManiac
Well, you know what they say, what goes around comes around. In my opinion it couldn't have happened to a nicer more deserving guy. I do find it a bit rich though, Hamilton accusing another driver of hot headed stupid moves :crazy:
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lolwut? Hamilton hasn't said anything against Maldonado.

So, no it isn't rich, actually it's extremely lean.


geddit?
 
Theres a line between intentional and dumb:

Here is dumb (this is during a red flag)


Intentional was taking Hamilton off the track at Spa, Perez at Monaco and wether people agree or not, Valencia.

He ignores red flags, takes people out when he gets annoyed with them and injures marshalls through not paying attention to yellow flags. Why is he in F1?
 
The good thing about Maldonado so far is that his incidents have been relatively low speed. They should make him pay the damages for every incident he causes.
 
I for one never said he crashed into Hamilton on purpose (this time). Or that he's not a very fast driver.

But he lacks good judgment, he misses common sense. To know that, sometimes, he shouldn't be at 110% because he and other drivers are not immortal. Be that at ramming other drivers, giving them space, or just going so strong all the time.

This is still "Pastor must go fastor". The same from that incident posted from GP2 where (despite not intending to cause a crash, only to leave as little room as possible to Grosjean) he ruined his own race and the unbelievable recovery Grosjean was making from 14th to 4th at the time (if I recall correctly).

He is a liability and no one will do anything serious about it, nor will he change on his one, because "money". The unconditional money and support he has behind him (he even has a very close relation to Chavez's and belongs to his party I believe), because he is used as a symbol and being the regime's wonder boy means he and can do anything that his sponsor will never leave him.

Also the money he brings to the team and F1 means the team will never sack him or restrain him, nor the FIA will do something more serious about controlling him.

Whenever I see him racing you know what I think of? The game "the dictator".

mza_4477029241468567863.320x480-75.jpg


He uses his speed and every other trick in the book to get ahead. Without self or external control he will never be one of the best. The best racing drivers are fast and reliable.

I just hope it doesn't take another driver getting (accidentally) killed for someone to do something about this loose canon.


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(note: the dictator bit is just me "cartooning" the guy, he never shot no one. Yet.)
 
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Protip: You aren't very well qualified to argue about Maldonado if you are a Lewis or Maldonado fanboy.
 
hornet_burnout
I just hope it doesn't take another driver getting (accidentally) killed for someone to do something about this loose canon.
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You know, I said something similar about Hamilton last year. You should have seen the reaction that got...

Some people really have it in for Maldonado. It never seems to occur to some that he's just stupid. Now, whenever he is involved in an incident, it is immediately labelled "deliberate". I don't necessarily agree. Also, on the subject of Hamilton running Pastor off the track, Famine used the runoff area to absolve Hamilton of guilt from the "you must leave at least one car space" rule. Surely, you should leave at least space for one car ON TRACK. It shouldn't matter whether there is one mile of runoff or a wall.
 
F1 fan
You know, I said something similar about Hamilton last year. You should have seen the reaction that got...

Some people really have it in for Maldonado. It never seems to occur to some that he's just stupid. Now, whenever he is involved in an incident, it is immediately labelled "deliberate". I don't necessarily agree. Also, on the subject of Hamilton running Pastor off the track, Famine used the runoff area to absolve Hamilton of guilt from the "you must leave at least one car space" rule. Surely, you should leave at least space for one car ON TRACK. It shouldn't matter whether there is one mile of runoff or a wall.
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I didn't like Hamilton's approach to F1... but he has improved and last year he had some stupid penalties just cause of his "reputation".

I think Hamilton's defense (that starts very early and granted pushes Pastor off) is legitimate and Pastor should've tried again later. He just lacks the ability to think things through (I guess stupid fits here) and keeps on banzai mode all the time.

But besides blames, everybody says Hamilton was dumb not think of the championship (and I agree). But I didn't see anyone saying Pastor was dumb not to get sure points. From either position even if he didn't make the pass later. He only scored points in 2 races so far. To add to his 1 last year. He just doesn't think, or doesn't care cause ha can (literally) afford it?
 
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F1 fan
Surely, you should leave at least space for one car ON TRACK. It shouldn't matter whether there is one mile of runoff or a wall.
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Like I already said in a previous post quoting the rule: this only applies when approaching the corner.

As soon as you enter the corner and are still in front the corner is yours and it's no different from making a block-pass move like everyone does at the last corner of the track.
 
F1 fan
Also, on the subject of Hamilton running Pastor off the track, Famine used the runoff area to absolve Hamilton of guilt from the "you must leave at least one car space" rule. Surely, you should leave at least space for one car ON TRACK. It shouldn't matter whether there is one mile of runoff or a wall.
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Nope. You must leave space and you're not allowed to cause a collision. A wall is not space but is a collision (unless the driver... brakes?), while a run-off is space and not a collision (unless it's Maldonado).

Meanwhile in Australia, Maldonado ran Grosjean out of road, left the space of a gravel trap and hit him.


If drivers were not allowed to defend their position safely, why do we watch the race at all? Just take the qualifying result and everyone's happy. Except when people get grid penalties and block other drivers.
 
Famine

Meanwhile in Australia, Maldonado ran Grosjean out of road, left the space of a gravel trap and hit him.
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ow, yea, forgot about that one already.
Clear difference here with Valencia. Hamilton kept a smooth line throughout the corner, while Maldonado in Australia intentionally shifted his line more to the outside, surprising Grosjean and bump him...
 
I don't know if it has been mentioned already but I was just looking at Maldonado's on-board shot of the crash. Maldonado was turning the wheel to the left to turn the corner but the car wouldn't turn (most likely because his car was going right in the middle of the rumble strip) so, unable to turn, the car just went straight into Hamilton. So maybe, in this instanse, Maldonado was not trying to be that reckless.

However, IMO, he still should have yielded to Hamilton and take him at another corner where he could have a better shot
 
I always wonder what kinds of talks teams have with guys like him about these situations. For one, the controversy of the incidents is self-evident, and with even a fraction of wisdom Williams could have vied for the podium. Instead they get no points and a broken car out of the deal, and you have to wonder if or when the next incident going to pop up.
 
Again: I understand Maldonado has a past, but what happened at Valencia is not particularly relevant. I can see Hamilton do the same, I can see Webber do the same, it is a dumb move. And that's all there is to it.

Once, back in the day when fatal accidents were more a probability than a simple possibility, Emmerson Fittipaldi called for the rookie Jody Scheckter to be banned from Grand Prix Racing. And he was probably right to be absolutely furious at Jody. However ...
 
F1 fan
Some people really have it in for Maldonado. It never seems to occur to some that he's just stupid. Now, whenever he is involved in an incident, it is immediately labelled "deliberate". I don't necessarily agree.
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I don't think you get to use stupid as an excuse in F1. These people are professional racing drivers in one of the highest categories in the world. If they can't drive smart, no one can. Not that everyone doesn't have a dumb moment or two, but to be consistently stupid is not an option.
 
F1 fan
Also, on the subject of Hamilton running Pastor off the track, Famine used the runoff area to absolve Hamilton of guilt from the "you must leave at least one car space" rule. Surely, you should leave at least space for one car ON TRACK. It shouldn't matter whether there is one mile of runoff or a wall.
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Famine
Nope. You must leave space and you're not allowed to cause a collision. A wall is not space but is a collision (unless the driver... brakes?), while a run-off is space and not a collision (unless it's Maldonado).


If drivers were not allowed to defend their position safely, why do we watch the race at all? Just take the qualifying result and everyone's happy. Except when people get grid penalties and block other drivers.
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Here's what the rule actually states. It was referenced earlier in the thread, but here is is again, for clarity.

FIA Article 20.3
More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted. Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off‐line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.
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Link

It does say that the one car width needs to be between the car and the edge of the track, which in this case is defined as the white line or rumble.

That said, it specifically states "on the approach to the corner". Intent of the rule is for defense on the straights, where a driver moves off the racing line to defend and then attempts to return to it, something Hamilton did not do in this instance to begin with, not to mention that the incident occurred IN the corner, not on the approach to the corner.

My opinion - The FIA got this one right. Maldonado did not establish sufficient overlap approaching the corner and did not have rights to that part of the track. Then furthermore, he left the track and made an unsafe return. He needed to back out.
 

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