2012 European Grand Prix

Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by Matty, Jun 20, 2012.

  1. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    Yep, that's the key part of that rule.

    Had the incident happened at Monaco (which it wouldn't have done) and Hamilton had squeezed Badgift into a wall, Hamilton would have been penalised by the stewards - and probably more than a 20s race penalty for being black causing a collision. But it didn't - it happened where there was safe run-off that went unused and thus your last paragraph:


     
  2. Bopop4

    Bopop4

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    I would just call it a racing incident.
    Pastor was still beside Hamilton coming out of the corner but Lewis squished him out to prevent him form attacking in the next corner which I get.
    But if I was Pastor I would get pissed off by that and would stay right beside Lewis like he did, and since his line was screwed up he just went straight into Hamilton.
    They both could've given each other more room.
     
  3. OK8

    OK8

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    He's ahead at turn in point. Isn't that sufficient overlap?
     
  4. daan

    daan Moderator

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    If Lewis is racing and doesn't need to let anyone past, why did this not result in an accident?



    He made room for Grosjean, yet he didn't make room for Maldonaldo...
     
  5. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    Had Maldonado stayed on the track, it might have been.

    Nope - he's not ahead at the apex.

    Hamilton, however, was ahead at all points of the left-hander. Isn't that sufficient overlap?


    Oddly, Hamilton is the same distance from the left hand rumble strip in both. Grosjean just hung in there and got his nose back up for the left. It rather looks like he was giving the absolute bare minimum room for both...
     
  6. EDK

    EDK Moderator

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    It's pretty clear to me that the Stewards don't agree with that assessment. I've seen some stills that showed where Grosjean was ahead when making a move in the same corner, but have not seen any evidence to suggest Maldonado was ahead or established overlap before turn in.

    https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7258407#post7258407

    I did see where he dove in and thought he'd be able to pull off a stupid move that was never going to work, but not where he used proper racecraft to establish overlap and give himself rights to that part of the track.

    It's particularly dodgy if you consider he was on the outside. Lewis was on the conventional racing line by being toward the apex of the corner, it's not like he was weaving all over the straight leading into the corner complex in an attempt to block.
     
  7. OK8

    OK8

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    Check out the onboard here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILhjnwW4jdE&feature=player_detailpage#t=44s

    At turn in point Maldonado is ahead. How do you define overlap? I always thought the nose of your car is up to the driver of the next one is enough, and Maldonado has that all the way until the accident.

    I wish there was onboard of Grosjean's overtake on Hamilton somewhere so we could compare it better but judging from Maldonado's onboard, I can't fathom what Grosjean did differently. He's able to stick to the outside and only his left wheels barely cross the white line, where as Maldonado had absolutely no room on which to place his car. He doesn't run wide of his own accord, he just can't turn through Hamilton, it is in fact Hamilton who has his car in the place where Grosjean's car was, left wheel just over the white line.

    Nope! Look at this.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2012
  8. EDK

    EDK Moderator

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    The issue is where the car is prior to the point that you start turning your wheel. Pastor comes flashing in at the last instant, which is a real gray area. Basically, he runs deep going in to create an apparent overlap.

    He's not able to complete the pass before the setup for the next corner. He ends up running off track before setup for the next corner, then makes the unsafe return he was penalied for.

    I don't think it comes down to car placement as compared to Grosjean, it's more down to timing.
     
  9. Ardius

    Ardius

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    Personally I'd rather allow drivers to run each other to the edges of the track when defending (as long as its only one move per corner and not zig-zagging down straights) because its much better than making defensive driving impossible.

    Its bad enough already that DRS takes all the fun out of it.
     
  10. homeforsummer

    homeforsummer Premium

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    Depends on which car is versus which other car. We've seen several times over the last few years where KERS and DRS still haven't been enough to et ahead on a straight. Monza last year was a good example - remember the huge issue Hamilton had passing Schumacher? (and how easily Button got past him...)
     
  11. Ardius

    Ardius

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    Personally I'd rather that DRS is free-to-use. It would make Eau Rouge fun if we got any Villenueves in the field.
    If anyone is stupid enough to do it they can have their accident - the logic that it would be unsafe is nonsense when the drivers were happily using f-ducts and not crashing it. We could argue that a racing car in itself is dangerous if driven too fast in a certain corner - the teams and drivers would learn and adapt where not to use the DRS as they do in qualifying.

    Besides they prevent DRS being used in the Monaco tunnel (I can't remember if this is by mechanically preventing it or just an agreement?) so if it was felt certain corners are too dangerous with DRS then it could be prevented.
     
  12. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    Go forwards about 0.8s. To the rumble strip on the left hand corner... Hamilton misses the apex on both by about a car's width.

    Good defensive driving is a rare skill, that not even some former world champions can manage. Some drivers drove very, very wide cars indeed...
     
  13. Ardius

    Ardius

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    Equally I'd say some of the best attacking moves have been against a good defense. "Selling a dummy" involves a car ahead that is extremely defensive.
     
  14. hornet_burnout

    hornet_burnout

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    Grosjean made it deeper along (already posted side by side photo). Hamilton gets on the gas first and gets back "in front" by a wheel, and only then he can (and tries to) turn. But it's too late.

    Pastor was not a wheel ahead but behind on that key moment. That allowed Hamilton to go wide legally while ahead.

    One can still argue Hamilton may have relieved some pressure from the brakes to remain ahead of Pastor. Still, legal defending.

    One can also argue that if he did so, he gave Grosjean and Maldonado different treatment. Still legal... and understandable for several reasons: Lesson learned from first overtake? Very different moments of the race? Different levels of respect had (and deserved) for the drivers involved? Bad cause he lost points? Maybe all of the above.
     
  15. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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  16. hornet_burnout

    hornet_burnout

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    Which goes completely against what Renault said...

    (reposting link from last page: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/100771 )

    Quote:
    "We had evidence that the alternator on Sebastian's car was showing signs of overheating before the safety car period, but the slower speeds prolonged its life expectancy slightly. Of course, when Sebastian went back up to racing speed the problem stepped up again and the result is now well known. With Romain's, the problem occurred very suddenly some laps after the safety car had been withdrawn."
     
  17. Bopop4

    Bopop4

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    Because going slower makes the alternator overheat when it hasn't in the past several umm... years.
    And I love the shot that they got of him for the picture.
     
  18. Biffy

    Biffy

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  19. The Outlaw

    The Outlaw Premium

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    I think that about sums it up :tup:

    But I must say, I still find it a bit ridiculous that there is no rule in place to prevent a driver from forcing another off track in such a case. I can't at all understand what is "sporting" about purposely forcing someone off track to maintain position (simply because a run-off area is available to them), particularly when they are basically wheel to wheel through entry to exit :ouch:

    In the end, I feel it was a stupid move from both drivers though - Maldonado with his typical overzealous approach (who shouldn't have tried so dearly to get back on track at that moment), and Hamilton who seemed unable to invision the bigger picture (which seems to happen quite often with him), by playing it safe.

    Btw, I do in fact like both drivers very much (mainly for their raw talent/speed)...I'm just pointing out their obvious flaws that lead to the incident.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2012
  20. Peter.

    Peter.

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    The difference is, the F-duct took far less downforce off the car than DRS does.
     
  21. Seismica

    Seismica Premium

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    Whilst Hamilton was indeed ahead, he was not completely ahead; they were still alongside eachother.

    I agree, Maldonado should have lifted/backed out or taken the run off area. Once he went off-track he was bound by the rules to concede the corner to Lewis. But the key part of the Stewards' decision on the matter was Maldonado going off-track. Maldonado may not have been aware that he was fully outside of the white line (Which is entirely plausible when you're pre-occupied with where the other car is). That may be irrelevant, but then you have to consider why Hamilton turned into the apex with Maldonado still on the inside kerb. A car doesn't disappear when he goes off-track, you still need to have awareness.

    Had Maldonado remained on-track, it would've been difficult to determine who was at fault (Hamilton may have in fact been penalised for turning on on Maldonado if that was the case). The fact that Maldonado did go off the track makes the decision clear-cut as to who would be penalised in the eyes of the rules, but Hamilton still has some blame to bear for the incident for firstly squeezing Maldonado off-track and then turning into the apex without leaving a bit of room for Maldonado's clumsy return to the circuit.

    But then, this did all happen in the space of around 2 seconds, and such time-constrained judgements aren't always going to be perfect. I think perhaps that's why these are called accidents. I think the human brain is at fault, for not having a slow motion setting.
     
  22. hornet_burnout

    hornet_burnout

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    The word "accident" has been ruled out and replaced with "collision" (even in general, not just racing) because accident implies external or unforeseen circumstances.

    But yes, hard to think fast and judge on such short time. Especially if you're not used to it... :rolleyes:
     
  23. Ardius

    Ardius

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    Its not just about how far ahead in length each driver is but also their line and who is defending and who is attacking.
    A defending driver who is on the inside line (usually the superior line to determine the corner) is nearly always going to have the corner.
    An attacking driver who is on the outside line needs to have significantly more speed and a line which can beat the defending driver but keeping in mind the likely trajectory of the defending driver. Hence simply being alongside is not enough to determine that the attacking driver has won the corner or has earnt the right to be given the space.

    The reason Grosjean's overtake worked was because Hamilton chose not to take a wide exit as presumably he didn't expect Grosjean to have the grip and speed on that line.
    Hence with Maldonaldo Lewis takes a wider exit anticipating the same move - this doesn't mean Lewis is being unfair, it simply means he has chosen a better defensive move. It doesn't give Maldonaldo a right to make the same move Grosjean did, though he can (and did) attempt it.

    The whole point of a good overtake is forcing the defending driver to concede the position - to put them in a position where they can no longer dictate the attacking driver takes.
    Fair defending should be predictable. And good defending is being clever with it. Its up to the attacking driver to recognise the moves and come up with the correct counter.

    For example, if a driver is consistently taking a hard inside line they will generally get poor exits. So the most common and easiest counter to this kind of defensive driving is a "switchback" where the attacking driver takes the normal, outside entry but cuts deep for the apex to maximise the exit and take advantage of the poor exit of the defensive driver.
    A defensive driver can then re-counter this by slowing on the apex and forcing the attacking driver to match the defensive driver's speed or run a wider or tighter exit. As long as both drivers can counter each others moves then thats what builds great racing and battles.

    Its when drivers drive erratically or un-predictably that it becomes unfair. Nothing Lewis did in his moves was erratic or un-predictable.

    I'll also add that this why Kobayashi-style divebomb overtakes are generally frowned upon as they are not predictable and its so easy for the driver ahead to not see it coming and take them both out. But as Kobayashi has a near-100% success rate with those moves I think he's earnt the respect to get away with it.

    True, but the point still stands. There were some corners where the drivers didn't use the f-duct because they needed the rear-downforce. Same applies with DRS and DRS is free to use in practice and qualifying anyway and we've rarely had incidents.
    And think they should keep the "no DRS until after lap 3" rule though as it does make sense considering the bunching of the pack. No one wants to see the GP2-style chaos with too many cars jostling for position in one corner.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2012
  24. Blaze_409

    Blaze_409

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    F1 drivers these days...Vettel's just trolling the media..Its obvious. I wouldnt read much into this...F1 drivers are absolutely sick of the media and how driver seat swaps rumours are constantly being upchucked into drivers' faces...Leave it to them to start trolling.
     
  25. tribolik

    tribolik

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    Just saw the race edit in the official site and the williams pit message to maldonado was «play it safe with hamilton hes got problems with the tyres»... what an idiot he probably doesnt understand english all that well.
     
  26. ENTERSANDMAN13

    ENTERSANDMAN13

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    looking forward to British GP next week, om going for the weekend! :D
     
  27. DaxCobra

    DaxCobra

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    Radio: "Play it safe with Hamilton, he's got problems with the tyres."

    Maldonado: "Drive straight into the side of him? Got it, watch this!"

    Entersandman, I am going to qualifying.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2012
  28. Peter.

    Peter.

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    The only corners that the drivers wouldn't use the F-Duct are perhaps low to mid speed corners where the straight line speed advantage is not worth the lack of rear downforce. They wouldn't run it through the entire first sector of Suzuka, because they need what relatively small rear downforce the cars have at those relatively low speeds compared to flat out through the 195mph 130R.
     
  29. Radracing

    Radracing Premium

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    Regarding the Maldonado, Hamilton incident is yet another example of driver personalities clashing at a split second moment. When you have a driver (Maldonado) who has a personality of pushing, forcing, even bullying his way to pass in the heat of the moment considering his bad temper. Then you have another driver (Hamilton) who is just as aggressive in passing and defending at all cost. Well you will have incidents, accidents, moments like this that will be unavoidable. As to who's fault it was, well as the smart and mature drivers would say (Alonso) some drivers have no respect for other and are willing to do anything to win. Not what would Alonso do in this situation if he was in Hamiltons shoes? He would give Maldonado the space or even let him pass and just try to pass him back if possible and if not he would just take what he can and get the maximum points he can get by finishing. Now if Alonso was Maldonado he would know that Hamilton is the type that would do anything to get his way then he would back off and try to pass on the next corner or just take the points by just finishing behind Hamilton if not possible. In return be applauded with having finished a good race cleanly. But as they say in racing to finish first you must first finish the race. In which I say both Maldonado and Hamilton seem to always forget in the heat of the battle.

    As for the race stewards all I can say is I would have called it a race incident or driver s immature incident.
     
  30. Tom

    Tom Premium

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    Is this still going on?