Alfa Z-Cup - Johnnypenso and Carracerptp Z-Cup Co-Champions!

[BrandonW77]

^ It's a feasible plan and would probably fix the lag problem but it's too labor intensive for my likes and presents other possibilities for errors and confusion. If we have to go to those lengths just to run a league, I'd rather not run a league.

 

[Marcus Garvey]

I am disappointed that we have to scrap the penalties during qualifying. I don't think that on this course it made any bit of difference, but there are courses where the benefit of cutting is rather great. I do agree with the decision to discontinue the penalties, however, if it eliminates a possible problem and makes it easier for the organisers.

I think limiting the room to 12 or even fewer drivers may be the band-aid we need until PD addresses the issue. I apologise for running in both sessions yesterday, and especially to Owens for the missed slot in the early race. I don't want to be part of the problem, so that will not happen again. Perhaps we could try a practice race between now and Friday with different numbers of drivers and see if we can try to eliminate the problem.

Of course, with the large interest and only your 'best result' of the week counting I would expect the room counts to continue to be high. If it became necessary, I would be glad to host/steward/whatever an additional race on another evening to thin out the driver fields in each race.

 

[BrandonW77]

^ Don't worry Marcus, you didn't cause any problems and no need to apologize. In past seasons this has all sorted itself out nicely and we never had to worry about it. We had roughly the same number of drivers too, but I think the Alfa just makes everyone want to race it as much as possible. Also figure that we had a much longer off-season than usual and there's been a lot of hype around the Alfa, everybody was just itching to finally race!

I do think we probably need to close the sign-ups now though (will make an exception for WRP's buddy if he's interested) so we can at least manage what we already have. I also think we'll probably need to institute a rule that you can only race twice per week max or something along those lines. I don't think we have as big of a problem as it appears, things will settle down after this week and everybody will find their spot(s) to race, we'll just have to encourage people not to race in every single race.

I'm all for simplicity and I've set this up so it requires as little effort from me or the stewards as possible so I don't want to add a bunch of complication and sign up forms and whatnot, but if we get to that point we'll get something setup. I'd bet next week will be a bit smoother though, after everybody gets familiar with the system.


Edit: I have updated the sign-up thread for Friday so if you plan on attending go ahead and put your intent on the form.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6441017#post6441017

 

[Marcus Garvey]

Yesterday was a rare occurrence for me to be running. I certainly don't see myself making the Tuesday early slot again, as I work that shift every week. Yesterday was dead and as such I wasn't required to report in. Normally I wouldn't be available until just before the late session opens on Tuesdays, so it would be unlikely I am there again.

In future I'd expect to just be running my primary session; Fridays. I'd have liked to run this Friday, but since I already ran yesterday I will forego Friday's session. I didn't plan on running the late session yesterday at all, until about 3 minutes before qualifying I noticed there were less than 10 in the room. I wanted to see if the lag issues of the early race were still apparent, and they were not, or at least not as obvious.

 

[Blind829]

This will also address another issue I hadn't thought of until last night. Lefty won both races in the early session and scored max points minus the bonus point for pole. He made the comment about coming back for the late race just to try to get that extra bonus point. Per the rules, that was a legit way of thinking but it didn't sit well with me that somebody could better their standing that way. So allowing drivers to only take part in one race on Tuesday fixes that.

Technically he could give it a go on Friday or Saturday. I personally don't see a problem with him attempting this though as long as there's room for him during a non-primary event.

I apologise for running in both sessions yesterday, and especially to Owens for the missed slot in the early race.

Don't worry about Owens, he just passionate about racing. It looks like he took out his frustration by winning one in the evening races, way to go Owens 👍

...I also think we'll probably need to institute a rule that you can only race twice per week max or something along those lines...

This would fix your concern about Lefty above. But I'd say lets finish this week out and see where the numbers come in at and then make a call.

What if we leave the max room size at 16, but make the steward decide who has to leave if there's over 12, based on the sign up sheet and primary point nights and such. That way we know if there are actually more people trying to get in. It definitely doesn't put the stewards in a fun position though.

 

[BrandonW77]

Technically he could give it a go on Friday or Saturday. I personally don't see a problem with him attempting this though as long as there's room for him during a non-primary event.

This would fix your concern about Lefty above. But I'd say lets finish this week out and see where the numbers come in at and then make a call.

What if we leave the max room size at 16, but make the steward decide who has to leave if there's over 12, based on the sign up sheet and primary point nights and such. That way we know if there are actually more people trying to get in. It definitely doesn't put the stewards in a fun position though.

Technically, you're correct. But something about doing it all in one day didn't sit right with me, it was nothing against Lucky and I would have had the same reaction no matter who it was. The fact that room space was at a premium kinda made it worse too. But having everyone only race in one of the Tuesday races and not both should fix most of that.


That's not a bad idea about leaving the room open to 16 but only allowing 12 to race. I think most people would understand, especially if they've already raced that week. I'd ask for volunteers to sit out if needed instead of just picking who doesn't get to race. The extra 4 people would get front row seats to the race which would be a good show. I was spectating from the lobby for the GMT races yesterday and my presence outside the track didn't seem to have any effect on those who were on the track. I will keep this in mind, but we'll just continue with the current plan for now and hope that things will sort themselves out next week after everybody's eagerness to race dies down. 👍

 

[WRP001]

I was spectating from the lobby for the GMT races yesterday and my presence outside the track didn't seem to have any effect on those who were on the track.

I think you are right that observers do not appear to impact the network much and it's probably fine to have an extra observer or two. Four observers may be pushing it as the data does need to be relayed to them even if they are not uploading any of their own telemetry data.

Maybe if there are observers and the race gets a little "laggy" they can be asked to leave.

 

[Marcus Garvey]

This all brings up another question. Being that only your best result of the week counts, is that result at the end of week a combination of all of your best performances, or just your best finish of any specific race session?

To elaborate, here's an example; if someone was qualify 4th on a Tuesday session, finish 3rd in the first race and win the 2nd race....Then on Saturday they qualify on pole, but finish 2nd in the first race and 8th in the second. Would this person get points for a 2nd place and a win (their two best individual performances) or would they get points for a 3rd and a 2nd place finish (their best performance in one given race). Also, would that person get the point for a pole earned in a session that wasn't their best race performance? Or say someone took their only pole of the week on Tuesday, but finished poorly. Then they went and won the first race Friday, but finished poorly the second, and went on to finish poorly in the first race Saturday, but win the second. Would this person then get points for two wins and a pole?

I may be making it more complicated than it needs to be, but it's unclear to me.

 

[WRP001]

This all brings up another question. Being that only your best result of the week counts, is that result at the end of week a combination of all of your best performances, or just your best finish of any specific race session?

To elaborate, here's an example; if someone was qualify 4th on a Tuesday session, finish 3rd in the first race and win the 2nd race....Then on Saturday they qualify on pole, but finish 2nd in the first race and 8th in the second. Would this person get points for a 2nd place and a win (their two best individual performances) or would they get points for a 3rd and a 2nd place finish (their best performance in one given race). Also, would that person get the point for a pole earned in a session that wasn't their best race performance? Or say someone took their only pole of the week on Tuesday, but finished poorly. Then they went and won the first race Friday, but finished poorly the second, and went on to finish poorly in the first race Saturday, but win the second. Would this person then get points for two wins and a pole?

I may be making it more complicated than it needs to be, but it's unclear to me.

I would think "best finish of any specific race session" otherwise it defeats the purpose of reverse grid.

 

[Blind829]

I would think "best finish of any specific race session" otherwise it defeats the purpose of reverse grid.

I would agree but am not sure. Using the above method rules out people racing just to get pole position like Brandon was concerned about. I like it.

 

[luckylefty2gunz]

look i did not mean to stir the pot if it is a problem i can drop this series

 

[Diabolical_J]

look i did not mean to stir the pot if it is a problem i can drop this series

I don't think anyone is upset with what you did or wants you to drop the series, just trying to get the rules squared away on a scenario that no one thought of.

My two cents is that you should only get points from one time slot, which should include any bonus points for poles and leading laps (can't remember off the top of my head if that even applies to this series). So in Lucky's situation for example, if he wants to go for more points by getting the pole, he would also have to win both of those races, otherwise he would have less points from the second time slot, thus only the points from the first time slot would count.

 

[BrandonW77]

^ It can be a bit confusing. We take your best total finish from one night, so on a double-header night both races count as one points scoring event. You take your combined total from that night, we don't mix and match one finish from this night and another finish from that night. The logistics of that would be a nightmare. So if you score 40 points on Tuesday, 45 points on Friday and 30 points on Saturday, only your points (pole position included) from Friday would count and anything scored on the other nights would be tossed out.

To add to that, when we toss out your 2 worst finishes at the end of the season we toss the whole week. So if you raced in 3 races during each week that you toss you would effectively be tossing 6 races from those 2 weeks.

It seems complicated but it's actually relatively simple, it provides much more opportunity for people to attend races around their schedules and allows people to compete against each other even if they don't race together. All the points stuff is automated too so you guys never have to worry about what round you're keeping, etc. 👍

 

[bdubclub]

look i did not mean to stir the pot if it is a problem i can drop this series

I don't see any problem with it, one of the great things about this series is you have multiple cracks at maxing your points for the week. Seems like it makes for a more relaxed atmosphere and closer championship battles at the end of the season. It was the first race after a lot of hype, all of us have been foaming at the mouth to start racing this lovely Alfa, I'm sure as the season progresses things will calm down a bit. Can't wait until Friday!!!!

 

[Blind829]

look i did not mean to stir the pot if it is a problem i can drop this series

I don't think anyone is upset with what you did or wants you to drop the series, just trying to get the rules squared away on a scenario that no one thought of...

Right on Diabolical, there's no reason to get upset Lucky, Brandon's just still trying to iron things out. I look forward to racing with you in the future, your excitement at the end of the second race after you won both of them was really neat. We're all really easy going here.

 

[BrandonW77]

look i did not mean to stir the pot if it is a problem i can drop this series

I don't think anyone is upset with what you did or wants you to drop the series, just trying to get the rules squared away on a scenario that no one thought of.

My two cents is that you should only get points from one time slot, which should include any bonus points for poles and leading laps (can't remember off the top of my head if that even applies to this series). So in Lucky's situation for example, if he wants to go for more points by getting the pole, he would also have to win both of those races, otherwise he would have less points from the second time slot, thus only the points from the first time slot would count.

Lucky, this had nothing to do with you personally other than you happen to be in the position to point it out and it wasn't something I thought of. Please don't take any of this as being against you in any way or form, I would have had the same reaction no matter who was in the position. I only used your name as an example because you were in the position to race again that night and improve your max points, a situation we haven't had before.

But as Diabolical stated, you only would have been able to improve your points if you took pole and won both races. If you had just won pole but finished 1st and 3rd in the late night session you would have taken your earlier points since they would be greater.

In reality, allowing people to only participate in one race on Tuesday is more of a crowd control measure than anything else. The only real issue I'd have with someone running again that night to improve their points is the angry PM's I would get from others who felt they were wronged somehow. A lot of my decisions are based on avoiding those angry PM's.

 

[Naptown25rs]

^^^

If I remember correctly from the Capp Cup seasons of past, if you raced on multiple nights (sessions) of the week, the only way you could increase your total points for a given week's standing is if you earned a higher total points in the 2nd or 3rd session of racing than you did in your first session.

AS AN EXAMPLE ONLY:

Lucky wins race #1 and race #1, plus gets the bonus point for winning both races, which gives him 51 points for the week. The only way he could increase his total points for the week is if he, in a different session, won race #1, race#2 and also claimed pole in the first race, which would give him 52 points for the week. Simply claiming pole on on a different night (session) would not increase his weekly points total to 52 points.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Brandon...

 

[Naptown25rs]

^^^

If I remember correctly from the Capp Cup seasons of past, if you raced on multiple nights (sessions) of the week, the only way you could increase your total points for a given week's standing is if you earned a higher total points in the 2nd or 3rd session of racing than you did in your first session.

AS AN EXAMPLE ONLY:

Lucky wins race #1 and race #1, plus gets the bonus point for winning both races, which gives him 51 points for the week. The only way he could increase his total points for the week is if he, in a different session, won race #1, race#2 and also claimed pole in the first race, which would give him 52 points for the week. Simply claiming pole on on a different night (session) would not increase his weekly points total to 52 points.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Brandon...

Looks like you made clarification as I was writing my novel...

 

[BrandonW77]

^ You are correct.

 

[Marcus Garvey]

^ It can be a bit confusing. We take your best total finish from one night, so on a double-header night both races count as one points scoring event. You take your combined total from that night, we don't mix and match one finish from this night and another finish from that night. The logistics of that would be a nightmare. So if you score 40 points on Tuesday, 45 points on Friday and 30 points on Saturday, only your points (pole position included) from Friday would count and anything scored on the other nights would be tossed out.

To add to that, when we toss out your 2 worst finishes at the end of the season we toss the whole week. So if you raced in 3 races during each week that you toss you would effectively be tossing 6 races from those 2 weeks.

It seems complicated but it's actually relatively simple, it provides much more opportunity for people to attend races around their schedules and allows people to compete against each other even if they don't race together. All the points stuff is automated too so you guys never have to worry about what round you're keeping, etc. 👍

That all makes perfect sense. Thank you for the clarification.

I look forward to racing with you all again in the future.

 

[OwensRacing]

Looks like you made clarification as I was writing my novel...

You know there is a Collectors Edition GT5. "Sealed" on Craigslist in Indy?

I own it otherwise it be gone. Told B, he doing trip mons so no go. Figured you may have interest. Gets the Chromeline cars and the fancy book oh and the lil hot wheel car of tue latest free GT-R from Seasonal.

 

[Blind829]

In reality, allowing people to only participate in one race on Tuesday is more of a crowd control measure than anything else. The only real issue I'd have with someone running again that night to improve their points is the angry PM's I would get from others who felt they were wronged somehow. A lot of my decisions are based on avoiding those angry PM's.

I would think there's got to be a better away for Tuesday crowd control, than just limiting a person to one race. If someone races the early race, and has the opportunity to race in the second race, and the field is not full, they should be able to. I would prefer as full as field as possible, which unfortunately is 12 or under for now.

It's pretty neat to have the problem of overcrowding, we haven't had to deal with it before, speaks highly to the organizers of this series (and how cool the car is)

If you get angry PM's, oh I feel bad for you, takes the fun all out of it.

 

[OwensRacing]

Was thinking maybe each person can lock into two races a week. No more then two.

Hmmmm maybe we need to schedule days to race and lock ourselves into that day.

Or Brandon and stewards can go through and ensure good competition and assign racers two different times.

I'd say a solid list of guaranteed spots for each race session. Then we do a sign up reserve list. Host posts in thread 5 till Qualfiying the amount of open spots.

Exp:

Friday comes and I have two open spots. I post up that there is two open spots and they are first come first serve. However all registered to Friday night racers have priority.

We will need a solid list of drivers and their nights.

Then do the reserve list for each race.

Lil extra work but something like this should work to fill the grid and ensure each person has their chance for two races each week.

I'd also count the persons best First race and best second race. Even if on diff nights. However winning the second race twice doesn't get two wins as points. Make sense?


edit:
Also on nights you wanna race. Remember there is ORCA Spot and Spec rooms to hold practice races in.

I myself is willing to use Friday and Saturday as main points races and just meet others in the Spot or Spec room on Tuesday for a practice race.

Seems many want to race on Tuesday.

 

[BrandonW77]

I would think there's got to be a better away for Tuesday crowd control, than just limiting a person to one race. If someone races the early race, and has the opportunity to race in the second race, and the field is not full, they should be able to. I would prefer as full as field as possible, which unfortunately is 12 or under for now.

I'm all for full grids too and one of the main parts of this system is to keep the grids full, but at this point it doesn't look like we'll have much problem getting 12 people in a room. Also, the early race was specifically added for the UK crowd so we want to be sure they're always able to get into that room. By limiting people to one race on that night it should help keep slots open for the UK room since the majority of NA people will be racing in the later NA race (if they have to make a choice).

This could mean we only have 9 or 10 people in each Tuesday race but that's more desirable than having some people not able to get into the room during the only time slot they can participate. Having fewer people in a race > than having people locked out of a room.

If you get angry PM's, oh I feel bad for you, takes the fun all out of it.

Oh, I get them. Not an overwhelming amount, but I get them. I'd get a lot more if things weren't setup they way they are though. We have a pretty fair system that makes the majority happy without enraging the minority.

Was thinking maybe each person can lock into two races a week. No more then two.

Hmmmm maybe we need to schedule days to race and lock ourselves into that day.

Or Brandon and stewards can go through and ensure good competition and assign racers two different times.

I'd say a solid list of guaranteed spots for each race session. Then we do a sign up reserve list. Host posts in thread 5 till Qualfiying the amount of open spots.

Exp:

Friday comes and I have two open spots. I post up that there is two open spots and they are first come first serve. However all registered to Friday night racers have priority.

We will need a solid list of drivers and their nights.

Then do the reserve list for each race.

Lil extra work but something like this should work to fill the grid and ensure each person has their chance for two races each week.

A little extra work, multiplied by 4 races per week equals a lot of extra work. Running this thing already takes more time than you'd think and I'm pretty much at the maximum that I can put into it. We get things done in a very timely manner every week and that's by design, if I have to send out PM's 5 minutes before qualifying then we have to wait around to see if anybody shows up, then wait for them to practice, then wait for them because they forgot to do an oil change...........suddenly it's 9pm before we're starting the race. At that point other people would have to drop out because it no longer fits their time schedule so we get one extra driver but lose three.

 

[RDAardvark]

^ +1

That last five minutes of qualifying, I find I spend watching the timing screen, taking photos and preparing the qualifying groups. Switching to the computer to post in the thread is awkward as I use the same monitor and keyboard for the PS3 and computer.

Ideally, I'd like to see everyone who's going to race to be in the lounge at least 10 minutes before qualifying begins. If you've just sussed out the qualifying groups and suddenly get 3 new arrivals, that could really unbalance the groups. If you are in the timing screen, you won't see the new arrivals.

As a host, I'd feel really uncomfortable asking someone to leave the lounge, especially if there is 5 mins to qualifying starts and someone comes knocking on the door. If you know you're going to be late, PM the host otherwise I think it's fair that the slot is up for grabs.

Also, after last night's freeze, I'm convinced this was caused by me switching out to the XMB to read a PSN message. It froze when I returned to the game, so I'd be very reluctant to do this again.

Locking people down to certain race slots is a bit harsh, especially if a certain slot turns out to be less popular (say on 14th Feb ) By the looks of it, there were only 9 in the second session last night, so we shouldn't stop people taking part even if they have taken part in the first session. The whole ethos of this series is 'not too serious' but reading through today's posts we are in danger of becoming a bit too rigid with the rules.

I'd also count the persons best First race and best second race. Even if on diff nights. However winning the second race twice doesn't get two wins as points. Make sense?

The spreadsheet to calculate points is already comlicated enough - This would make it a nightmare. Plus as Blind says below, this would defeat the purpose of having the double-header event with reverse grid - The two races are seen as one big race.

 

[Blind829]

I'd also count the persons best First race and best second race. Even if on diff nights. However winning the second race twice doesn't get two wins as points. Make sense?

I think the reason we don't do this is it would defeat the purpose of the reverse grid. I may be wrong though.

This could mean we only have 9 or 10 people in each Tuesday race but that's more desirable than having some people not able to get into the room during the only time slot they can participate. Having fewer people in a race > than having people locked out of a room.

I 100% agree that fewer people in a race is better than having someone locked out. I wish we could run 16 cars like before, maybe we'll have to look into the option of setting the room up at 16 players, but only running 12, needs testing though. Maybe wait to see how the rest of this week goes and go from there.

If you need any additional help running this B, please keep me in mind. I don't have much time but I don't want the organizers to get burned out.

Edit - This V 👍 I like your thinking.

By the looks of it, there were only 9 in the second session last night, so we shouldn't stop people taking part even if they have taken part in the first session. The whole ethos of this series is 'not too serious' but reading through today's posts we are in danger of becoming a bit too rigid with the rules.

 

[BrandonW77]

The whole ethos of this series is 'not too serious' but reading through today's posts we are in danger of becoming a bit too rigid with the rules.

My feelings exactly. To back it up, I got this PM today from a long time member:

"For the next season, are we going to have to do all this sign-up stuff spanning different threads? My favorite thing about the Capp Cup was that you could just sign up and show up to race without having to go through any crap."


This whole, complicated system is setup to allow people to race at different times according to when their schedule allows and not have to be locked into a firm schedule Having people sign up for certain times or days defeats the purpose and makes the system broken. I set this up specifically to avoid all this mess and confusion and over several seasons and 50+ races it worked like a gem. We have a few more people this season but we've also added an extra race alot, I believe it will work itself out.

My motto has always been to expect/require the least from the members, all I want you guys to have to do is show up to one of the various time slots and race. I don't want you to have to fill out forms every week and follow multiple threads. This is a video game, there's no money, sponsorships or careers on the line here so if somebody gets locked out of a room it's not that big of a deal. We all have 4 opportunities to race every week and we all get to drop 2 complete weeks so missing a race or two shouldn't be that big of a crisis.


We will continue on with the rest of the season as originally planned with the addition of the 'one race on Tuesday' rule. This rule is mainly to make sure the early race has spots available for the UK racers who are several hours ahead of most of us and can't attend the other weekday races. We're not going to do sign up sheets or have separate threads, no reserved spots or designated times. The race lounge will open four times each week and the first 12 people in the room get to race that night. If it happens to be the only night you can race and you're locked out of the room, PM a steward on PSN and they will ask for a volunteer to make room for you. Out of 12 people one of them will be generous enough to step aside. (@RDAardvark, you're lock up had nothing to do with going to the XMB. I've seen it happen several times and it always happens right after a race. Only the game freezes, but the rest of the PS3 works fine).

 

[Hydro]

I do think we probably need to close the sign-ups now though (will make an exception for WRP's buddy if he's interested) so we can at least manage what we already have.

Thanks, I'm signed up 👍

 

[BrandonW77]

^ Welcome to the group! Love the avatar.

 

[Diabolical_J]

I like the first come, first serve idea better. Those signup sheets can be annoying, especially since someone constantly has to watch to make sure everyone is quoting the latest list. If you can only make one night (like myself), get there a little early. As long as you don't wait until 5 minutes before qualifying, there's probably going to be a spot open for you.