Assetto Corsa PC Mods General DiscussionPC

[RMi_wood]

Big rant opinion...

I may not be a race driver beyond killing it in the 80s on the street with my 1969 Hurst SC/Rambler going in a straight like (12.90 1/4mi stock)
But... I have been building mod physics for 15years (because real values were not being used in GTLegends) and strove for a realistic experience (hence, is why I named the group Realistic Modders inc. - RMi). I went on to do physics for IDt and many of some very popular mods for GTL/GTR2/Race/rFactor. I immigrated to Finland 10yr ago and was involved in a racing Esports shop between 2010-2018. We rented sim time out for professional drivers from all over Finland and Sweden... WTCC, F3, Formula Ford, GT3 cars and developed physics mods for private use there. My rFactor/GTR2/Race07 Radical mods were developed by real race drivers, from real data and alot of testing... to understand car behaviour and that adjusting a suspension setup resulted in expected behaviours and performance.

The big disappointment in sims has got to be RRE in terms of physics and feel (I was loosely affiliated with H. Roos who split from Simbin to do the free (and expensice to lease) RR (as a money creating venture with RR exclusive Esports sports cafe's etc). PCARS isnt much better, but they screwed the FFB *I was on the community dev* one of the last betas was perfect... then they screwed it up somehow. Is AC perfect? nope. It might not even be technical enough of a framework to be "sim worthy", but its the best "modern" platform to showcase nearly all genre of cars in a somewhat satisfying experience, mostly due to the modding capability.

It is true that MOST mods for AC have crap physics. If you have noted my "releases", they focus on making an otherwise shlt mod drivable and somewhat close to what you could expect from that cars real-world performance. I am currently sifting through my collection to find those mods that let everyone down (me) in expectation of the driving experience of an otherwise cool mod, to give something the whole community can enjoy.

My "standard" of physics is very very high and is why I havent released the Radical SR8 yet. If you want a taste, fire up Race07 and install my Radical SR3 mod (because the game cars had unrealistic physics) and feel the difference. My Mustang mod for rFactor was utilized by many many real racers and many leagues used it. I will slowly start re-releasing mods for GTL/GTR2/Race/rFactor as they were previously released on NoGrip, which is dead.

What is "realistic" or not IS subjective and to each their own opinions... I have mine.

 

[Jimlloyd]

This is my 2 pence on the whole Rusty list thing....

Always in life be wary of those that talk a lot but in reality don't do a lot

As they say, actions speak louder than words

Probably not worth all your energies getting upset...it seems by compiling this list he has garnered exactly what he thrives on

 

[ParanoidDoge]

What makes me laugh is all the armchair simracers saying 'this car handles like heaven' and when a professional driver (David Perel, Nicki Thiim, Verstappen, Lando...) contradict their opinion they just lose their minds and say they don't know what they're talking about. Seriously ? They drive cars for a living (and some the fastest in the world !) and you know better than them ? The entitlement and delusion is strong in that part of the community.

That Rusty lad is just the perfect exemple. Has never driven a real car yet has the right to say which virtual one is good and the other atrocious ? Mate. Get a grip. Pretty sure he's never modded anything as well, so... What a ned.

 

[P1ButtPlug]

big doubt.

a) show me any proof that he's never driven a real car.
b) show me any proof that he hasn't even had a driver's license.

"He knows more than real world race car drivers"
c) maybe he has contacts with people with enough experience and data of racing cars?

You can BIG doubt all you want for all I care. I don't need to show or prove a thing to you.
rusty has said, as I said originally, that he doesn't have a drivers license or driven a passenger car. You would only know that if you were an observer in the back and forth with the mental midget in OT @ discord.

c)Contacts?! A kid thats never driven a car now has contacts with actual race car drivers that is gold or contacts with engineers, designers and aerodynamicists and the like. GOLD

Nobody takes the mental midget seriously anyway, apparently he helped you at some time with your texture issues so now he knows all. Go kiss his feet, hes here again anyways. Kiss on

This is my 2 pence on the whole Rusty list thing....

Always in life be wary of those that talk a lot but in reality don't do a lot

As they say, actions speak louder than words

Probably not worth all your energies getting upset...it seems by compiling this list he has garnered exactly what he thrives on

Now you've done it, your tracks now are %100 garbage - this is how the child looks at life.

 

[freedom1104]

Anyone having the same problem as me? Tried installing the Shader patch 0.1.6.3 preview 3 full but windshield doesn't seems to change to the newer version of rain_FX

Tried
> Completely delete Shader patch in CM and installing the .rar file on its own still the same
> Deleting SOL and reinstall
> Reset SOL config ingame
> Checked WeatherFX debug app ingame and i can manipulate all the variables except the windshield
> Disable WindscreenFX
> Checked if Rain_FX is enabled in .ini

 

[Don123456789]

hello all, I do think what make this thread great ( and yup it's un-structure , we know ! ) is that we do see enthusiasm from people all over the world that enjoy new cars / new tracks constantly to make this "dated" game become a hit again. I am not a modder, but I do know many hours need to spend to make a 3D mod become driveable. I do think we should respect everyone work no matter it's good / bad. Whether the physics is close to reality ? I don't care as I can still take amazing picture from my daily run. There are many ways to enjoy this game and for me, I don't think any sim game now that allow me to run 100 cars at same time that costing billions of dollars !? Using "bad" wording may seems offensive to those modder spending hours & hours to keep this community alive, anyway taken this chance really want to say "Thx" all great people here delivering amazing content, thx and take care everyone !

 

[Masscot]

Regarding this 'good/bad mod list' that's sparked so much debate, I imagine that accurate physics are incredibly hard to get right for a whole host of reasons such as access to OEM data, interpreting that data and feeding it into a physics engine with its own inherent limitations, and then doing whatever else is necessary to fill gaps and correct anomalies so that the car also 'feels' subjectively right based on the modder's own expectations and - in rare cases - feedback from actual professional drivers or car owners. A lot of that is probably way beyond the knowledge or capability of your average Joe Modder, if they can even find the data to work with in the first place.

But a good point is made about the aesthetics of mods. Kunos literally provide a pipeline of instructions detailing how materials and shaders should be used to achieve realistic results within the AC graphics engine, but unfortunately this seems to be largely ignored by the majority of modders. It could be argued that, geometry aside (and most modders seem to have at least basic 3D skills now to improve or adapt wireframe models), there's no real reason why car mods (and in particular, cockpits) shouldn't look almost as good as original Kunos content. There's no mystery to this, no secret shaders that Kunos use, no proprietary software - it's all spelled out by the developers themselves, and textures and shader values can literally be harvested directly from Kunos content. There's no reason why satin chrome on a door handle of any vintage car mod shouldn't look at least as good as that from the in-game 250 GTO, because Kunos literally demonstrate exactly how to achieve that look and even provide the tools to do it. Some modders have always realised this and have achieved great results with their conversions for years (for example @Showmebest66 at Assettodrive, and Markos Kass) but the majority don't seem to grasp it. Or maybe most modders just use the default textures created during the conversion rather than replace them with Kunos equivalents, then try to tweak shaders to improve them, effectively attempting to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear rather than starting from a good base. Seems crazy, doesn't it?

I don't know, maybe Kunos didn't do enough in the early days on their official modding forums to promote correct use of their workflow, or maybe they did and people think they know better. But it can easily be argued that the vast majority of car mods should look an awful lot closer to original Kunos content if only the instructions thoughtfully provided by the developers were actually followed. Thankfully, standards do seem to be improving overall but it seems to have taken an awful long time to get to this stage. Almost all of the recent ACC car conversions look to be on a par aesthetically with their Competizione counterparts, but the default shader values probably transfer better between these two titles than they do from doner cars from others sims.

 

[Pencil]

Regarding this Rusty list, well, lists, for a number of reasons I can't be bothered to get into it

But what I will say is, some think that the top tier RD cars mods are very realistic and generally awesome.

Take Pessio's Mini for example its looks very nice and is good etc, but for me it doesn't really feel how that mini did back in the day imo which is to be expected - aphidgod's Subaru Impreza over on RD feels OFF for me but has very high praise over on RD. Whereas the Skoda RS from over on RD feels awesome to me, absolutely love it - is it absolutely "physically" realistic probably not and probably doesn't feel like that in real life but great nevertheless. There are cars created and posted here and some feel really great whilst others not so much - all subjective though as it's personal feel to a great extent.

When it comes to official content I don't particulary think that many of Kunos own cars feel absolutely realistic but many of them feel absolutely great to drive with and I think that's what Kunos has done - made sure they drive great whether the physics are absolutely accurate or not.

Some people love AMS cars and some people think they're terrible.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that ones person's idea of what makes something feel great to drive could be the total opposite for another. Driving feel can be totally subjective from one person's opinion to another so lists like Rusty's are meh to me....

Instead of lists just try them for yourself.

 

[SillyBillyP]

New track from Reboot Team: Port Newark, NJ v0.9
Totally reworked from rF2's 'Lester' circuit with the following additions and enhancements:

• forward and reverse layouts
• full lighting config
• RainFX ready
• animated/patrolling choppers, balloons and airliners (needs stFlow shader from RD)
• new billboards and environmental textures
• chicanes reconfigured for cleaner racing
• basic replay camera set
• optional E-Prix skin

View attachment 947889 View attachment 947890 View attachment 947891 View attachment 947892 View attachment 947893 View attachment 947894 View attachment 947896

(needs stFlow shader from RD https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/stflow-shader.161360/)

Track download: https://www.mediafire.com/file/io0xg3l3pnorsvb/port_newark.7z/file

This track is lovely Thank you to all involved in bringing it to us in this excellent state. And, at night, what a beauty! Performs really well too.

I am, though, getting AI pile ups in the first lap at the first chicane. It seems to happen every time, just after race start. I know these sort of chicanes can be very tricky to get right for the AI. I'm using a Ferrari 458 S3 at 95% AI and aggressiveness in the 80s.

 

[TheRealCeeBee]

so.. RainFX... try a fun thing, edit all your gt3's to work with rainfx physics... load up the green hell in rain with 20 car grid... and try make it through any corner without a major disaster pileup and perpetual yellow flags, as they try overtake on the track edge where the water is banked up

I guess an all new "wet line" set of AI lines will have to worked into rotation soon..

 

[DJDialga1]

Regarding this 'good/bad mod list' that's sparked so much debate, I imagine that accurate physics are incredibly hard to get right for a whole host of reasons such as access to OEM data, interpreting that data and feeding it into a physics engine with its own inherent limitations, and then doing whatever else is necessary to fill gaps and correct anomalies so that the car also 'feels' subjectively right based on the modder's own expectations and - in rare cases - feedback from actual professional drivers or car owners. A lot of that is probably way beyond the knowledge or capability of your average Joe Modder, if they can even find the data to work with in the first place.

But a good point is made about the aesthetics of mods. Kunos literally provide a pipeline of instructions detailing how materials and shaders should be used to achieve realistic results within the AC graphics engine, but unfortunately this seems to be largely ignored by the majority of modders. It could be argued that, geometry aside (and most modders seem to have at least basic 3D skills now to improve or adapt wireframe models), there's no real reason why car mods (and in particular, cockpits) shouldn't look almost as good as original Kunos content. There's no mystery to this, no secret shaders that Kunos use, no proprietary software - it's all spelled out by the developers themselves, and textures and shader values can literally be harvested directly from Kunos content. There's no reason why satin chrome on a door handle of any vintage car mod shouldn't look at least as good as that from the in-game 250 GTO, because Kunos literally demonstrate exactly how to achieve that look and even provide the tools to do it. Some modders have always realised this and have achieved great results with their conversions for years (for example @Showmebest66 at Assettodrive, and Markos Kass) but the majority don't seem to grasp it. Or maybe most modders just use the default textures created during the conversion rather than replace them with Kunos equivalents, then try to tweak shaders to improve them, effectively attempting to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear rather than starting from a good base. Seems crazy, doesn't it?

I don't know, maybe Kunos didn't do enough in the early days on their official modding forums to promote correct use of their workflow, or maybe they did and people think they know better. But it can easily be argued that the vast majority of car mods should look an awful lot closer to original Kunos content if only the instructions thoughtfully provided by the developers were actually followed. Thankfully, standards do seem to be improving overall but it seems to have taken an awful long time to get to this stage. Almost all of the recent ACC car conversions look to be on a par aesthetically with their Competizione counterparts, but the default shader values probably transfer better between these two titles than they do from doner cars from others sims.

This is actually near the exact reason the list was made in the first place. The main objective with the list was NOT to in anyway upset creators, or harass them, but to highlight the lack of all the basic fundamentals necessary to create a car mod which has been ever so prevalent within the Assetto Corsa Community. The bad list was to show what it can look like when the PIPELINE standards were ignored in varying capacities, while the good shows examples of what you can achieve when you follow them, and in some cases even add to them.

 

[Pencil]

(and in particular, cockpits) shouldn't look almost as good as original Kunos content.

Yep, some mods are awesome to drive and look really great on the outside and then you look at the cockpit in VR or Triple Screen or inparticular look to the left or right or behind and, well, and...

But I do appreciate it's takes a lot of work to make good car mods but for example if Tommy78's WTCR cockpit interiors matched the physics, driving feel and external views of his touring cars, then they would be one of the best touring car mods ever to me. As it happens though the interiors are not so good but the rest of the package makes up for it so I'm happy enough.

 

[Fanapryde]

I have reworked Circuit de Trois-Rivières converted by @_EASY_.
First of all thank you for the work of _easy_.

Could some optimising be done to this track ?
Alone and using SOL-No Clouds I get 92.6 fps AVG (78.3 MIN) which is pretty heavy.
Thanks.

 

[safi hellie]

This is actually near the exact reason the list was made in the first place. The main objective with the list was NOT to in anyway upset creators, or harass them, but to highlight the lack of all the basic fundamentals necessary to create a car mod which has been ever so prevalent within the Assetto Corsa Community. The bad list was to show what it can look like when the PIPELINE standards were ignored in varying capacities, while the good shows examples of what you can achieve when you follow them, and in some cases even add to them.

Great in practice, but in the wrong hands could simply be used as a beating stick for mods someone has fallen out with, or to big up your mates....

It is what it is, simple to ignore... just find it all a bit laughable.

Every real life driver (during covid e racing) pretty much moaned that sim racing does not have accurate grip to real life, i.e too slippy...yet it will always be a vocal majority saying grip =arcade...

 

[ales100i]

"imagine thinking chivas and shaun clarke are bad modders"
yes

"if you are so unsatisfied with their physics go to your real world then"
aight

"and for FREE most of the times, they are not being paid like Kunos team"
ok

"and they ACTUALLY DELIVER AMAZING mods"
without any realistic data? i'm aware that in chivas case obtaining a real data from gt500 car is impossible, due to language barriers etc.

in shaun's case however - ripping the car model from rF2 isn't that easy as it seems, huh

Can I see and try your mods please. By reading on how much you know about how they should feel, how much you know, how they should be built, and how easy it is to build them, I'm sure there are a ton of them available. Thanks.

And the problem is not that the list exists, It's the fact that somebody thinks he knows better than everybody else, what is right and what not. And how something should feel like. It's called entitlement and arrogance, and I see it all the time in all walks of life, and there is only one reason it is so. The parents did a very poor job in upbringing such people. The world does not revolve around them and their opinion is not the Bible for all to follow. I know, hard to understand, if your entire life you were told how special you are.

That all being said, I wish the moderators @daan would come and delete this entire conversation. It is off topic, brings nothing to the table and it provoked trolls to come here and disrupt a normal peaceful community. So we can go back to enjoying our bad mods and leave the "experts" to go enjoy theirs wherever those people with flawless mods reside on the internet. No problem. We survived until now, without being told what is a good mod, will manage onwards as well.

 

[xezez]

With regard to the car list from Mr. Grumpy... what grinds my gears isn't even the list. It's the attitude. (And with that attitude, I already know the list is rubbish, which is why it doesn't bother me.)

People can say whatever they want about GTPlanet, but at least people are generally civil here (with the occassional outstanding exception). A significant proportion of the people who contribute here are also genuine driving enthusiasts, with decades of real world driving experience... and having an exchange with them doesn't require donning a fireproof suit or booking a detox session with the first available psychologist.

 

[DJDialga1]

Great in practice, but in the wrong hands could simply be used as a beating stick for mods someone has fallen out with, or to big up your mates....

It is what it is, simple to ignore... just find it all a bit laughable.

Every real life driver (during covid e racing) pretty much moaned that sim racing does not have accurate grip to real life, i.e too slippy...yet it will always be a vocal majority saying grip =arcade...

"Wrong Hands" is the least of anyone's worry. Just like a kitchen knife could be used to cut food, it can be used to cut people, use it how you will, but then that becomes your way of using it, not a reflection of the tool at hand itself.

Also, Drivers even argue in real life about how a car should be "feeling" when they have to set it up and race. The engineer who assisted in the BK Modding Audi R8 LMS Evo specifically disregarded driver feedback and went with pure data BECAUSE driver feedback skews the data with how a car "should feel", and takes away how it ACTUALLY DRIVES naturally.

 

[xezez]

Can I see and try your mods please. By reading on how much you know about them and how easy it is to build them, I'm sure there a a ton of them available. Thanks.

"Wrong Hands" is the least of anyone's worry. Just like a kitchen knife could be used to cut food, it can be used to cut people, use it how you will, but then that becomes your way of using it, not a reflection of the tool at hand itself.

Also, Drivers even argue in real life about how a car should be "feeling" when they have to set it up and race. The engineer who assisted in the BK Modding Audi R8 LMS Evo specifically disregarded driver feedback and went with pure data BECAUSE driver feedback skews the data with how a car "should feel", and takes away how it ACTUALLY DRIVES naturally.

Funny then how the team at Kunos actually pointed out to people many years ago that in a sim like AC, you can't just put in 'real data' and expect the mods to feel like 'real cars'. The software itself isn't that accurate, which is why a simulator that can do that is WAY more expensive than AC running on a PC.

 

[DJDialga1]

Funny then how the team at Kunos actually pointed out to people many years ago that in a sim like AC, you can't just put in 'real data' and expect the mods to feel like 'real cars'. The software itself isn't that accurate, which is why a simulator that can do that is WAY more expensive than AC running on a PC.

And that, is why IER created the wonderful extended physics platform we use today in order to fix that issue.

 

[xezez]

And that, is why IER created the wonderful extended physics platform we use today in order to fix that issue.

Dream on.

 

[Masscot]

This track is lovely Thank you to all involved in bringing it to us in this excellent state. And, at night, what a beauty! Performs really well too.

I am, though, getting AI pile ups in the first lap at the first chicane. It seems to happen every time, just after race start. I know these sort of chicanes can be very tricky to get right for the AI. I'm using a Ferrari 458 S3 at 95% AI and aggressiveness in the 80s.

As LSM can testify, that first chicane caused a lot of trouble during AI development, but you should have seen how tight it was before the team opened it up for better flow.
Maybe we'll release a chicane-free ribbon at some point in the future (or if anyone else wants to, please do so), but in the meantime I really do think that this track is best enjoyed with smaller grids of medium pace cars. I have flawless races against a dozen AI using the Kunos MX5 ND and have even been two abreast at full throttle through that first chicane without incident. Cars in that pace range seem perfect for walled-in tracks like this that have no run-off areas, even though ISR touted it as an E-Prix track.

 

[Fanapryde]

@Masscot Plz add me as an origin icon too for all of my mods lol

Origin icons updated, you are included now
https://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/origin-icons.28078/updates

 

[monza17]

Pretty sure i have done this before so i'll keep it simple.

Aero was pretty good in the 90's. As good if not better than the 80's ground effect cars that were banned.. Not to mention the awful cheat that was active suspensions and TC..

1992 was 'peak downforce"
RF2 is 'night and day' because grip is silly GPL old gits idea of racing car grip..i.e. very little...
(all driver skill you see...lolzzzzzzzzzzzzz.)

1968: 1000lbs@150mph - high wings
1976: 800lbs@150mph
1978: 2000lbs@150mph
1980: 3000lbs@150mph
1981: 2300lbs@150mph - skirts banned
1982: 2500lbs@150mph
1983: 2000lbs@150mph - flat bottom
1986: 2500lbs@150mph
1992: 3500lbs@150mph - peak downforce
1995: 1800lbs@150mph - stepped floor, smaller wings
2000: 2600lbs@150mph

For Tyrrell F1 cars (SAE paper from Ben Agathangelou and Mike Gascoyne) :

1989: 2200lbs@150mph
1990: 2300lbs@150mph
1991: 2450lbs@150mph
1992: 2750lbs@150mph
1993: 2450lbs@150mph
1994: 2350lbs@150mph
1995: 2050lbs@150mph
1996: 2350lbs@150mph
1997: 2500lbs@150mph

Thanks for the Informations. I have to say that the 1993 cars where better in downforce than 1992 (helped by the slim tyres). Nigel said that the FW15 was 12% aerodynamic efficient than the FW14B. And the grip the MP4/8 had was monstrous from the downforce. Senna run Brigde corner flatout at about 300kph... Schumacher also run flat through that at around the same speed. 1994 the Benetton had even more Downforce until Imola and the later rulechanges. so i have a graph to show to you to illustrate John Barnards downforce and power graph.

 

[mals10]

OMG how much stupids are here today? Dont you like gtplanet mods and others mods from the community? Perfect, goodbye and stop bothering.

 

[Gregz0r]

Well that was a very entertaining read whilst having breakfast!

 

[__EASY__]

Assetto Corsa - Pau Arnos TV-CAM (GTR2 to AC)

 

[BrainsBush]

A new sound mod of ACFAN (aka SHR Modding) is always a moment of joy --> lets download and try it. Also this time for the Audi RS4 Avant.
I had to download the car as it was not in my garage yet
https://www.racedepartment.com/down...sound-mod.24441/updates#resource-update-62111


Strange thing happens during replay (not sound related). The car disappears and only the driver is visible?! Probably a setting somewhere? Using CSP1.62 and SOL1.7 A2



BTW Also checking why my sound is completely different as the example vid in the ACFAN YouTube? Mine sounds like a Wreckfest lawnmower?! Reinstall and try again

 

[ales100i]

A new sound mod of ACFAN (aka SHR Modding) is always a moment of joy --> lets download and try it. Also this time for the Audi RS4 Avant.
I had to download the car as it was not in my garage yet
https://www.racedepartment.com/down...sound-mod.24441/updates#resource-update-62111

Strange thing happens during replay (not sound related). The car disappears and only the driver is visible?! Probably a setting somewhere? Using CSP1.62 and SOL1.7 A2

That's a lods problem. In lods.ini the switching between lods is not defined correctly and there is a distance from camera where the AC does not know what lod to use, so it doesn't use any.

EDIT:

Just downloaded. Yes that is the problem. The car has only one lod, and in lods.ini it is defined that the lod is used only from 0 to 16 meters. Change the lods.ini to something like 2000:

[COCKPIT_HR]
DISTANCE_SWITCH=6
[LOD_0]
FILE=rem_rs4_b8_avant.kn5
IN=0
OUT=2000

repack data and this problem should go away.

 

[Masscot]

Ferrari 360 Liberty Walk by Revenge Garage
-------------------------------------------------
Community Fix

v1.1 - by RMi
- updated engine *no more over-rev blown engine
- corrected suspension *many tweaks
- new previews
- enjoy

[feel free to improve this mod, add your fixes and increment the version to ui_car.json]

I do have a soft spot for these LW kits.
As you're a physics guy... any chance of a grip tune for this thing please? I much prefer looking through the windscreen, not the side windows.

 

[sonicmarmy]

What track do many of you use for testing vehicles/mods?

I've been running on Spa, using Kunos vs a mod, but getting tired of having to run 2 min+ laps. I tend to run a single hot lap and have test well over 800+ mods for quality.

Basically looking for a track that can give a good sense of braking, cornering, and general handling. Thanks for the input ahead of time.

Autodromo Geraldo Backer has a bit of everything. Lots of gradient, bumps in awkward places, kerbs, a drifty hairpin, a short curved straight to bring out any sliding, and a faster corner that shows if the downforce feels about right. Best of all its a tiny track, so only takes 25-35 seconds to lap, so its great for testing cars quickly, as you can tell within 2 laps if something is flawed - I tried the 6 Corvettes from that muscle car pack on it last night in about 10 minutes, and only kept 1.

https://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/autodromo-geraldo-backer.10115/

Ebisu West is fantastic as well, and laps in around a minute. Its a lot trickier than Geraldo, but even the F2004 can do the hairpins, so suits anything. Most things will lap in 45-65 seconds.

https://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/ebisu-west-circuit.25940/

Other than that, historically I've used Silverstone International the most, but that has no gradient. Donington National is good for higher speed cars.

I'd advise using shorter tracks for testing, because if you use something like the Nordschliefe, it'll take a lap to get a feel of braking and grip levels, and thats at least 6 minutes gone in most cars before you can log a properish time for comparing it to others.