Bowtie's Speed Shop : Ultimate Corvette Collection!

Discussion in 'GT6 Tuning' started by Bowtie-muscle, Jun 11, 2014.

  1. Bowtie-muscle

    Bowtie-muscle

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    [​IMG]

    M3 Coupe '07
    Paint: Schwarz
    Rims: Standard

    PP: 525
    HP: 475
    WEIGHT: 1325kg
    WEIGHT DIST: 50:50
    TIRE(S): Sports Medium/Sports Soft

    GT Auto:
    Oil Change - No
    Rigidity Improvement - No
    Front Aero - Type A
    Wing -
    Flat Floor -
    Other -

    SUSPENSION: Full Custom // Brakes: Racing
    RIDE HEIGHT - 90 / 90
    SPRINGS - 6.00 / 10.50
    COMP - 4 / 7
    EXT - 7 / 4
    ARB - 3 / 4
    CAMBER - 0.0 / 0.0
    TOE - -0.12 / 0.05
    BRAKES - 6 / 7

    TRANS: Full Custom (install all power upgrades first!)
    FINAL TO
    - 5.500
    TOP SPEED TO - 124
    1ST - 3.650
    2ND - 2.500
    3RD - 1.900
    4TH - 1.520
    5TH - 1.265
    6TH - 1.085
    7TH - n/a
    FINAL - 3.650
    (^^^Adjust for top speed here)

    LSD: Full Custom
    INITIAL - 10
    ACCEL - 12
    DECEL - 9

    CLUTCH TYPE: Triple-Plate
    CARBON SHAFT: Installed
    TORQUE CENTERING DIFF: n/a

    POWER PARTS:
    ENGINE TUNING - Standard
    COMPUTER - Standard
    EXHAUST - Racing
    MANIFOLD - Isometric
    CATALYTIC CONVERTER - Sports
    INTAKE TUNING - Standard
    SUPERCHARGER/TURBO -
    POWER LIMITER - 100%

    WEIGHT REDUCTION - Stage 3
    CARBON HOOD - Body Color
    WINDOW WEIGHT - Installed

    BALLAST - 0
    DOWNFORCE - n/a

    NOTE:
     
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  2. Bowtie-muscle

    Bowtie-muscle

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    FITT M Power Tuning Challenge Reviews:



    By @shaunm80 :

    Tuner 10 – BMW M4 Coupe
    Best lap time – 2.09.302
    DC – 9.6

    A great tune, really driver intuitive that gets faster each lap you drive this car. This car keeps saying push me, to the driver and it keeps on giving. I am sure it has a limit but I didn’t find it. I could have achieved a mid-high 2.08 with this tune given time but I messed up a great lap by missing a braking point and sliding past the apex. The brakes on this car are fantastic, the handling is second to none and it can take whatever line you want with ease. This might be an Automatic Transmission thing but the final gear felt far too long. I was just getting into the 7th before I had to brake for the 1st corner. This did not cause anything detrimental to the tune though as the car was always in the right power band to get pretty much perfect acceleration out of the corners. Occasionally, there was a tad too much over steer but the rotation on this car was perfect and the over steer only happened if I braked too late and took the wrong line through the corner. A very impressive tune, Great job!


    By Bowtie-muscle (ME :dopey:):

    Tuner #10 – M4 Coupe
    Lap Time: 2:07.687
    DC: 9.0
    Comments: Fast and stable if you like a grip tune, this one has plenty of it but sometimes too much. Does what you ask, with some mid corner understeer. Perhaps a little on the safe side but fast and consistent to drive.


    By @Soren Jacquet

    Tuner #10 – M4 Coupe
    Lap Time:2:07.968 DC: 9.5
    Comments: fast and stable lots of grib,very safe car to drive


    By @DolHaus :

    Tuner 10: M4 Coupe

    2:08.134
    DC = 7


    Initial Impressions:
    • Car feels solid and composed
    • Touch of understeer
    • Engine feels laboured
    Final Impressions:
    I found that this car was extremely functional and consistent but lacked any kind of personality or character, it neither did anything particularly badly or particularly well.
    Very easy to drive and never did anything that surprised me but at the same time I never felt exited or involved while driving.
    I liked the 6-Speed concept (7 gears is just showing off) but the execution was slightly less successful unfortunately, the engine felt strained the entire time and didn't have the greatest drive, particularly at the top of the rev range.
    It might have been a more enjoyable drive on slightly stiffer springs, just something to sharpen it up and make it feel more involving. Dropping the rear extension a click or two will also help liven the car up and give you a little more rotation where necessary.


    By @fordracer :

    Tuner #10 – M4 Coupe
    Lap Time: 2:10.185 DC: 9
    Comments: Great car, easy to drive. Just a hint of understeer. Good grip under acceleration. Had not owned or driver an M4, but like them. Just wouldn't go any faster for me.


    By @DaBomm4 :

    Tuner #10 – M4 Coupe
    Lap Time: 2:09.304 DC: 8.75
    Comments: A little off-throttle understeer in slow corners, agressive cornering gets good rotation.


    By @biffa3 :

    Tuner #10 – M4 Coupe
    Lap Time:2:07:923
    DC:9
    Comments:
    Does exactly what you want it to. Good turn, good rotation and easy to get on the power. A little understeer on the slower corners but good effort


    By @ALB123 :

    Tuner #10 – M4 Coupe
    Lap Time: 2:08.843
    DC: 8.75
    Comments: The only real flaw I found was the car would occasionally understeer at times that I would never have predicted. Overall grip was really good. This car is a real pleasure to drive. The handling is sharp and allows you to recover easily from tiny mistakes.


    By @ugabugaz :

    #10
    Time: 2:06.557
    DC: 8.0

    Doesn't feel as nice to drive as #2. Understeer creeps in at several points during the lap, forcing a wider line and ultimately slower time. Not as easy to hit the power either.


    By @macdog54 :

    Tuner #10 – M4 Coupe
    Lap Time: 2.08.092
    DC : 9
    Comments:
    A good drive once I got used to it, a more sedate version of tune 2 ( but quicker in the end) , really good traction , stable and safe under the conditions I put it through , the gearbox was a little long in the final drive but I doubt if that would have made much of a difference, for me it could have done with a little more corner rotation, well done.


    By @steefpeef :

    Tuner #10 – M4 Coupe
    Lap Time: 2.10.593 DC: 8
    Comments:


    By @Lionheart2113 (Mystery Tester):

    Tuner #10 – M4 Coupe
    Lap Time: 2:07.450
    DC: 9.8
    Comments: A car that does what you want and expect. The only things stopping this car being perfect for me is slight understeer between entry and mid corner and not using up all of the transmission. Other than that... Amazing tune.


    Full list of ALL reviews here
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2015
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  3. Bowtie-muscle

    Bowtie-muscle

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    Working on a project, late of course but hopefully informative. Will be titled "Muscle Cars, PD and You" and will have several parts to it. So if you see this, or a title change, please check in.
     
  4. TurnLeft

    TurnLeft

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    :tup:, can't wait to read this.
     
  5. TurnLeft

    TurnLeft

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    Hey @Bowtie-muscle , just to be on the safe side, can you tag me when you put it out, alerts are acting feverishly these days with me and I don't have much time to constantly go through the watched threads to see what's happening.
    Thanks buddy :).
     
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  6. Bowtie-muscle

    Bowtie-muscle

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    Will try and remember, but watch the title of the thread. When it changes, I will have posted the first part. Will take a few days to post it all.
     
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  7. Bowtie-muscle

    Bowtie-muscle

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    "Muscle Cars, PD and you"

    Intro
    So, here we are a year and a half into GT6, many have left for other titles and possibly other platforms, but some of us are still around. Still looking for things to keep our interest and to keep the game fun. I myself, have not yet been bored by GT and still have things I would like to get to and cars to try and tune. I also have the Car of the Month and FITT Tuning Challenges to keep me busy. I have thought of this before but never really went too far with it and perhaps should have a year ago, but with several more updates behind us, and hopefully still a few more ahead, I thought why not.

    Muscle cars are the cars I loved growing up and still do. A local restaurant still has car shows every Saturday night during the spring and summer, and plenty of old cars show up week after week. I grow up with these cars all around me, though not true muscle cars, but there standard street version. The Chevelle, Malibu, Nova, Olds Delta 88 and Impala SS, and since 1988 I have had the opportunity to not only drive but to work on many of the cars in game. Yes, I am old enough, having been born in 1969. My first car was a '75 Chevy Monte Carlo, as big or bigger than the Chevelle in game, but only had a 350 cubic inch motor with a 2 barrel. Still, enough to have some fun though.

    So I would not necessarily call myself an expert on these cars, but I have been around them, driven them and know how they truly are. But if you look at the cars I have tuned, you will notice that there are many muscle cars, mainly Chevy's, and I still have 8-10 ready to post. Some are better than others, some are just the best I could get them, but all are to my liking for the most part.

    So what I am hoping to do, if you are someone who has never really liked or appreciated these cars, is to give you insight to what they are, and why they can be tough to tune. And point out the reasons they are not always competitive with anything other than other muscle cars. Should take me a few days to complete, and 2 or 3 more posts. So if nothing else, should give you something to read anyway. So be patient, and hopefully I can point out a few things even if you already know them, someone else may not. Maybe, just maybe, I can get you to look at them differently or perhaps help you with tuning them. Your feedback after completion is always appreciated.

    Bowtie
     
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  8. Bowtie-muscle

    Bowtie-muscle

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    "Muscle Cars, PD and you"

    Part 1: What is a Muscle Car?

    So, what is a Muscle Car? The answer is the key to understanding these cars. The first real Muscle Car was the '64 Pontiac GTO, and began what became a decade of awesome and powerful cars. And ushered in the power battle and GM and Ford tried to outdo each other, Chrysler followed later. But by the early '70s, all was gone with except for the Camaro and Firebird. The Mustang returned later as did the Challenger, but the great era of Muscle cars was from '64-72. And no, no matter what people say, a Corvette is not nor ever was a Muscle Car, it's a sports car. Although the Z06 and ZR1 could be a good argument.

    Muscle cars were big V8 power and light weight bodies. But they were not like today's cars where uni-body construction is used, well, some Mustangs and Camaros had uni-body, but most were body mounted on frame. A steel frame that was not as rigid as one would thinkm but that was the technology of the day. They had loads of body flex and needed stiffening, but they were built with 2 things in mind. Big power, and straight line speed. They were for bragging rights on the drag strip or open road. And were rarely meant for road course racing since they were long and wide.

    They were normal street cars converted into power breathing beasts. The old technology of cast iron block and cylinder heads, no variable valve timing here. Only Spark advance, and 4 barrel carbs. Sometimes 3 2bbls, or 2 4bbls. But big block motors. Valve overlap was different than in today's cars, if they used today's technology and had no limits as back then.....wow.
    What a thought, no worry about emission (pollution) and safety standards that would be sub-par by today's standard. Seat belts were not even mandatory until 1969.

    But all of this was on cars riding on bias-ply tires, but I will get more into that in Part 2. Radials came later and helped the handing and performance, but let's just say that you would rather drive those old cars on today's tires than today's super cars on bias-ply tires. Try taking a 458 or Murcielago on Comfort Medium tires, that should be close. I've driven on bias ply tires and can tell you, I don't know how they did back then.

    These are fun cars with load exhaust and brute power. But they need to be driven and handled differently than other cars in game. You can not expect them to perform well on technical courses, won't happen. They should also be raced with one another, not so much against today's cars. But the reason will be covered in better detail later.

    The Muscle Car lives on today, with the Camaro, Challenger and Mustang. And is imitated by many other manufacturers. Take a base line Impreza, not impressive but a good commuter or daily driver. And body mods and a big turbo and you now have a WRX, a totally different animal.
    That is the idea of a Muscle Car.

    For more on Muscle Car history and facts, I found an old article worth reading. Not too in depth, but interesting non-the-less. http://www.musclecarfacts.com/classic-car-articles/33-muscle-car-history

    Hope you enjoy and stay tuned as I take a look at the reason these cars are picky with tuning and sometimes hard to handle in Part 2. I will also answer the question, did PD really model these cars correctly or did they give them a raw deal.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2015
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  9. Thorin Cain

    Thorin Cain Premium

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    Nice work so far Mr. Muscle :bowdown: Cool idea and informative too :tup: I'm looking forward to the rest :)
     
  10. TurnLeft

    TurnLeft

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    :tup: :), nice start, can`t wait for part 2 :cool:.
     
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  11. steefpeef

    steefpeef

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    this read made my day!
     
  12. Bowtie-muscle

    Bowtie-muscle

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    Hopefully, next part will be better.
     
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  13. Bowtie-muscle

    Bowtie-muscle

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    "Muscle Cars, PD and you"

    Part 2: Tire Construction
    This picture from PD before the release of GT6 had me concerned and along with the GT40, caused me to post my thoughts. Cannot find the post, nor did I really look for it since it was so long ago. But the though was, I hope PD models these older cars better so they don't handle like the standards from GT5.
    Which begs the question, how did PD model these cars and did they model them correctly? Or did they just mess them up?

    The answer is, they modeled them correctly and quite accurately actually. This is part of the reason Muscle Cars are not so easy to drive on GT6. To the untrained eye, they just look like tires, but to me I can see that they are in fact bias-ply or bias belted tires. They are not the radial tires we drive on today, nor do they handle the same. The tire construction itself is different which leaves very hard tires with stiff sidewalls. may not sound like much, but actually makes a huge difference. First, let me show a quick pic illustrating the different types of construction. I apologize as it did not transfer as well as I had hoped, but you should still be able to get the idea.

    [​IMG] As you can see, the tire construction is different.
    My experience on bias ply tires was an adventure to say the least. I was young and still getting the hang of driving manual trans when I had to drop a customer off before repairing his pickup. It was an old early 80's or late 70's Datsun (yes, Not a Nissan!) pick up and I had no idea it had bias ply tires until I hit the first sweeping bend. The rear end of the truck was all over the place and I am surprised changing of the pants was not required. Needless to say, I limped the truck the rest of the way thinking there was something seriously wrong with it. Nope, that's how they ride.

    My boss had a '65 Stingray, similar to the one in game. He bought it in 1975 used of course and immediately removed the bias tires for some expensive and wider radials. The upgrade made a massive difference in ride and handling. He says those things were dangerous with that much horsepower, which is why there used to be more accidents and highway fatalities. I myself am glad to have radials today.

    The best example I can give, is like changing your street car's S or T rated tires and upgrading to Z rated performance tires. But still not quite the same.

    The best way for me to attempt to illustrate what happens when cornering is to first show what a radial looks like from the rim to the road. Something like this (_), the sidewalls bulge allowing flex when hitting bumps or when getting loaded in corners. They might look like this (_) as the sidewall compresses. That does not happen on bias ply tires as they have harder tread compound and much stiffer sidewalls with little to no flex, something like this [_]. But when loaded in a corner, it's more like this \_\ or /_/. So if you've driven Muscle Cars in game and they slide on entry, that's why. This means that PD modeled these cars with factory tires of the day. You may not be able to see this visually, but it's modeled according to the way the cars handle.

    This would also explain why, or part of the reason why, the rear end likes to break loose mid-corner for no reason. The tires get over worked and roll over. This can be fixed in different ways, stiffer front springs help as long as you don't go to stiff. Adding positive toe to the rear also helps, but makes cars that do not corner well to begin with even more difficult to rotate. And stiffer rear springs does not help as it would with newer cars. So it requires a balancing act with settings to get them just right, or the best you can, but that is what I love about some of these cars. But then there are those like the 63 Stingray and the El Camino that are just disappointing to me no matter what I try. This also applies to other cars from the era in game also, such as the BMW 507 which can be a bear to deal with.


    Another simple sollution is to do what people do today with these cars, upgrade the tires. I recommend Sports Soft tires to get as close to replicating switching from bias ply to radial without losing that muscle car feel that racing tires give. But keep in mind what you are fighting, it's not the car but the tires. There is more on tires but that comes in the next part. So stay tuned and enjoy some photos to show the in game difference in tires.

    [​IMG]

    Front right tire Sports Soft, Nova SS - bias ply

    [​IMG]

    front right tire Sports Soft, 2010 Camaro - Radial

    Now the next 2 are very interesting since they are from the 69 Camaro SS and Z28. Though they should be the same car with slightly different trim packages, the modeled tired are not! We know that the Z28 handles much better than the SS so you would assume that if one was to be modeled (visually anyway) with radials that the Z28 would be the one. But have a look for yourself and you tell me.

    [​IMG]

    Front right tire Sports Soft, 69 Camaro SS - Radial
    and you can tell be the quality of the car it is the SS


    [​IMG]

    Front right tire Sports Hard - 69 Camaro Z28 - bias ply???
    And this is right out of the showroom untouched. My birthday gift this year from PD;)



    P.S. Tire contact patch is up next, so be sure to keep an eye out for the next installment.:)
    In the mean time, you can check this article out on the history of tires, I found it quite fascinating myself. http://www.jags.org/TechInfo/2001/05May01/tires/historyoftires.htm
    and @TurnLeft , that's for you.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2015
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  14. TurnLeft

    TurnLeft

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    :bowdown::bowdown::bowdown:, just to be sure, are those front tire pictures from the game?

    Thanks my friend, I just popped up that document and I'll read it religiously when I'm rested and focused ( not like after a 12 hour shift :crazy:). I'm still on testing brakes and MLSD, my next step is going to be to find the tires nominal grip on a track, something like kg/kmh, so this info will be very useful when I finally get to do that.

    I've restarted a game but I'm doing it with no aids at all, you should try Goodwood Hill, the Missions and the Drivers License :crazy:, so far I've only either powered up a car or upgraded it's tires, have only bought 3 cars for the one Make Races that I didn't win a car for (almost finished from Novice to IB & I'm starting IA. The Challenger RT was a handful with it's massive wheel lockup, kept the original BB and tried the best I could, the game is much more fun this way. Oh and I'm doing this off line so I don't get the double bonus :D, scrooge has to be careful with how he spends his money because he may have to buy some expensive car when he gets to IA & Super :lol:.

    So a part 3 right? Please tag me, I really like this :tup:.
     
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  15. Bowtie-muscle

    Bowtie-muscle

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    "Muscle Cars, PD and you"

    Part 3 - Contact Patch
    My daily driver is a 1998 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP with a 3.8l V6 Supercharged. Back in the late 90's when it was released, the add campaign slogan was "Wider is Better". And when it comes to tires, this is also true. Wider tires have a larger "contact patch", the area in which the tire contacts the pavement. Having large horsepower means you need more surface area to get that power to the road. As you can see in the pic above(and the one below), some Muscle Cars suffered from having very thin tires compared to today's cars.

    [​IMG]
    Many of today's super cars and modern muscle cars all come with slightly wider or larger tires in the rear of the car. This was not so with cars from the 60's unless you bought larger tires which was not common until later. Many of these cars today sport radial tires on wider mag rims, with the common look of wider in the rear and the rear ride height lifted. Hard to gain that much lift in GT6 to show this, especially with the Chevelle and the GTO. You can see the amount of extra rubber on the rear of the '00 Z06 pictured with the 63 Stingray. This shows why the '63 is harder to get grip in the rear of the car.

    Another car that suffers from narrow tires, is another that is hard to tame. The '67 El Camino, as you can see in the pics below.

    [​IMG]

    Front tire zoomed in closer than the pics in the post above.
    You can also clearly see, they are bias ply tires.

    [​IMG]

    Ok, so not the greatest pic, but you can see how narrow they are. So thin a tire for such a big car explains the handling issues even further than compound and construction alone. Compare to the rear of the 2010 Camaro SS.

    [​IMG]
    Just a brief bit of information most of you already are aware of but that needed to be included. All of this tire information has a huge impact on drivability and performance. It is known and can be tested if you wish, that changing from CS tires to SH in game will gain you anywhere from 1.5-2 seconds depending on the tune and the track selected. In doing my lap time testing at Midfield in the '63 Stingray Anniversary Edition, the car struggled on SH tires being one of the slowest tested. I needed to show how slow to prove this point, but what was not mentioned was that I changed to SS tires and ran 3 laps, dropping between 3.5 and 4 seconds off my time. Again proving the need for softer tires on the older cars. You may have more drifting fun and can learn more about throttle control with SH, but will enjoy the drive more on SS. It also makes power delivery easier to control and makes the settings for gearing and suspension better.

    Speaking of power delivery, that comes next.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2015
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  16. Bowtie-muscle

    Bowtie-muscle

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    And yes, all tire pics are from in game and unedited since I don't know how to do that :dunce:

    Funny how there is no modeled front suspension on the 2010 but the older cars you can clearly see have front and rear :confused:
     
  17. Burned_Rubber

    Burned_Rubber

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    Useful and easy to read. A very enjoyable read Thanks for posting
     
  18. TurnLeft

    TurnLeft

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    There are so many surprises in this game, some wonderful and some ... that we may be missing some explanations on how they are done. In general I find the game is quite good as a simulator. I think there's been too much bashing and not enough understanding of all the physics involved, this is a beautiful ray of light in that cloud. I'm not saying some things are not done wrong, but before stating anything people should test, research and discuss things, you never know, maybe someone has got a brilliant explanation for that.

    I can't compare super cars or muscle cars but I can compare my Outback 2004 to the Legacy 2003, mine turns a lot wider, rev's less high and feels like I have TC at 10 :lol:, also my gears don't change at the same speeds and it doesn't accelerate as fast, like not even close :grumpy:,it has a H6 3.0L engine like the Legacy but it's closer to a tractor than a sports car :D. I floored it in a parking lot in 4 - 6 inches of snow, on acceleration the wheels never spinned (or I just didn't feel it), just guessing the Legacy is a sportier version, might be lighter too, but in general the handling at city and highway speed is right on, same motion as IRL when going over bumps, and even with CM you still get that feeling of safe footing (at IRL speeds of course, I've never max out to see how fast mine could go, can't afford the price of that ticket :crazy:)

    I really appreciate you sharing your research with us :tup:, honestly I would have probably never noticed this, well at least not for a very long time, and it's going to help me greatly in understanding the physics of GT6. If you've got more things to share, I'm more than happy to listen (read) :). Thank you Mr. Fasterest.
     
  19. shaunm80

    shaunm80

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    A very thorough breakdown of the cars. I find the information about the tyre compound and how it affects the handling very interesting. That does explain a lot about why certain cars in GT6 handle the way they do. Great work indeed. :)
     
  20. Burned_Rubber

    Burned_Rubber

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    The suspension tune on this is amazing! I love how I have a choice of where the car is aimed now :p Very well done, its a keeper
     
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  21. Burned_Rubber

    Burned_Rubber

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    Oops! Sorry for double post, couldn't add this quote to the above post
     
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  22. Bowtie-muscle

    Bowtie-muscle

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    "Muscle Cars, PD and you"

    Part 4: Power and Gearing
    Another factor that comes into play when setting up older muscle cars, and this also applies to today's cars, is power delivery. When do you get max power and for how long. The issue with some muscle cars, such as the '63 Stingray, El Camino, and Cuda just to name a few, is they receive power early and then it drops off before hitting the redline. This leaves a narrow powerband of useful power, and trans setting become more critical. If you use a MT, you can shift when power drops off or early, but if using AT then you need to change a few things. take a look at some pics below of a stock '63 Stingray:

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    First notice that redline is around 7000 rpm, but max power begins at 4500 rpm and quickly drops off. To get the most out of this setting, you should be shifting at around 5000 rpm and no later. You will all ready be starting to accelerate less quickly. Again, if using an Auto Trans, it shifts for you and power will be lost after 500 rpm and the engine may feel labored.

    Now look at the settings for my "63 Stingray at 525pp:

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    So there is more power and less of an arch, higher redline and the max power is actually 100rpms higher as well. However, best performance is shifting early at 600 rpms. Another short power band but more useful and better performance. But what if you added more power and then lots of limiter? Would that give you a better range? Have a look:

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Now this set of numbers is by adding more power parts, then dropping the power limiter down to reach 500pp. Now max power comes in real early and lasts longer with more time in usable power range. But it comes at a cost since you are now only at 500pp. With max power delivery being so early, exit becomes trickier as well as the lack of rear grip on throttle comes into play. However, there is less of a disadvantage to using Auto Trans since shifting early helps but not as much with this setup.

    No matter how you setup the power delivery, you will now need to set your max speed higher than what you would typically use. Or adjust the final gear so the rpms are in the proper range at the end of the longest straight. With it being only a 5spd trans, spreading the gears wider also helps. You may lose some acceleration but getting on the throttle will be easier and there will be more pull down the straights. These cars can be tricky this way but paying attention to max power delivery and torque will help get them setup the way you want and will allow you to maximize the power.

    It will also make you chose your pp level wisely. Speaking of which, Part 5 will discuss that topic and should also be the final installment.


    All examples above are with max weight reduction, ballast was added only to the 525pp example only, 28kg@+50
    525pp example was with power limiter at 96.8%
    500pp example was with power limiter at 83.2%
    The car may also be in need of another oil change as I have been trying to make it better than it was, getting frustrating as it seems to have hit a speed wall so to speak.
     
  23. Bowtie-muscle

    Bowtie-muscle

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    [​IMG]

    "Muscle Cars, PD and you"

    Part 5:
    The Final Chapter

    So here we are at what should be the last installment of this series. Only a few more things to point out, some could have been said in previous posts but was saved until now. We have already discussed what a Muscle Car is, the tires and their construction along with width. We touched on power and gearing, but will now go back to my thoughts and impressions.

    1. Rigidity Improvement
    It is a little used upgrade for me as I still cannot decide if it is really worth it or not. I have used it on several Muscle Cars with no real big gains, although I do not believe it hurt any of them. Maybe, I just have not seen the big improvement I was looking for. The '59 Stingray Concept, '63 Stingray and 2010 Camaro Touring Car all saw some improvement using it. But I would think it would be beneficial on most Muscle Cars. Just NOT enough evidence for me to believe it makes that big a difference.

    2. Track/Tire Temp
    Maybe you have and maybe you have not seen that I have been lap time testing and comparing all the tunes in my garage. I have done 450pp(SH) at GVE Reverse, 500pp(SH) at Midfield, and 525pp(SM) at Laguna. Currently I am working on 500 and 525pp(SS) American cars only at Willow Springs and decided to try something different. Time Change. I set the time to 11:30 to brighten up the track and get rid of the gloomy look of the track, and to turn the lights off on the cars. While doing this, I checked a tune out at the Classic Muscle Car event where the time is much earlier in the day. When I went to Arcade Mode and changed the time and set grip to real, my time actually improved rather than dropped with the grip on Real. So to prove this, I tried it with more than one tune. Might just be me, but it appears the warmer the track temp, the more grip you get from the tires. Normally, you would think the track would get slick as the tires warmed up and that cooler temps would provide more grip was the tires warmed up. Maybe it's just me and I'm thinking wrong, but this might be useful info for hot lapping and tuning in general. Try it for yourself and let me know your thoughts.

    3. PP levels.
    You may notice that I do not tune Muscle Cars at a level higher than 525pp. For me (my opinion and not fact here), over that limit makes difficult cars even more unpredictable and takes away from that Classic Muscle Car feel. Somewhere between 550 and 525pp just seems right although several of them are perhaps better at 500pp. Of course driver, track and tires all play a role in this, but I don't like to over power them.

    4. Corvette Stingray '63 - my biggest disappointment in game.
    I really was excited to find out that PD redid this car and upgraded to Premium status. Even more when I got the Anniversary Edition and it was one of the cars included. That is, until I drove it and realized it was not better than the GT4 or GT5 version. Same old thin/narrow bias ply tires lacking rear grip and not the ride you would expect from a Vette. I have found it quite the frustrating car to get the way I really want it to be, the 500pp Anniversary Edition is ok but is the slowest 500pp car in my garage. The '63 at 525pp is not all that much better, even with rigidity improvement installed. So while doing my most recent Lap Time Test, I wanted to try and redo the '63 and attempt to improve it. At Willow on SS tires, the Anniv. Edition ran 1:22.171, which I was actually happy with all things considered, but was the slowest of all the cars tested. So when I took out the '63 with the tune built a year ago, I had little expectations for a fast lap. It ran 1:20.794, better but not much even with 25pp more. So I tried a totally different approach with the suspension and trans settings, running at Laguna and felt the handling was improved as well as the feeling of the power. I then went to Arcade mode and ran a few 2 lap races with proper time change and grip set to real, with a best lap of 1:20.027. Now that's an improvement. But when I did a 5 lap Time Trial run, I could do no better than 1:20.619, which is only a small and virtually non-existent improvement. It's time was scratched for the leaderboard and I still have a few things to try. My point being, perhaps this car is best at 500pp, slower yes, but 525pp might be too high.

    5. El Camino - disappointment #2
    What can you expect from a front seat muscle car with a pick up bed? Not much when you only get bicycle tires to run on. But I did build a tune for it a year ago also, never overwhelmingly happy with it though. So like the Stingray, I wanted to try an upgrade and began by building a 500pp tune first (tune will be posted soon). Got it the best I felt I could and ran the Willow test, the time was 1:21.056. Faster than the Vette and that in and of itself is a crime. So surely the 525pp tune would be faster right? It ran a 1:21.306, slower than the 500pp tune proving that it was either a bad tune or the car was better at a lower level. So I tried one more thing, I put the suspension, trans and LSD settings from the 500p tune onto the 525. Made a slight LSD Initial change and dropped the time to 1:20.340. Now either the tune is a second better or I just had one magic lap. Could also be that I was spending more time with the car and getting better with it. Either way, I still think it's better at 500pp. Will be posting the upgraded 525pp tune soon.

    6. Polyphony Digital
    I hope all of this research and information gives you both a better understanding of what makes Muscle Cars different and why they hold a special place in automotive history. I tried to point out the differences between them and modern cars, and the fact that PD truly did model these cars fairly accurately all things considered. I would also hope this adds some positive light to the work PD do in trying to replicate these cars for us. Yes, I know they make mistakes but they also get things more right than wrong.

    7. Muscle Cars
    I hope you have enjoyed this little bit of babbling I have done, also that you get something from it if nothing more than time spent reading. I tried to give info that should help with tuning if by nothing else but giving you an understanding of the era they were built in. I really love driving these things and hot lapping them, just listening to the big exhaust sound of throaty V8s. Even if the sound could use some improving.


    Feel free to give your opinions, positive or negative to what I have written. Or question something I may not have covered. I appreciate any feedback and thank you for reading.

    Bowtie
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2015
  24. Bowtie-muscle

    Bowtie-muscle

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    @TurnLeft Sorry, I forgot to tag you in the previous post but this should move it up the list so you know it is now complete. Hope you enjoyed the last 2 parts as much as the first 3.
     
  25. Gyro1780

    Gyro1780

    Messages:
    283
    A BIG Thank you for sharing all this info on the Muscle Cars. It's a very good read & i've learnt a few things i didn't know which i'm sure will help me fine tune my cars. I don't have much time to tune my own cars due to work commitments so i normally find a tune on here & make small adjustments to suit my driving style.
    With the Muscle Cars i normally round up the PP the car comes with from new & then add 50PP to that by adding a few upgrades. Most of these cars end up between 500PP & 520PP.
    Not really tried the Rigidity Improvement much on road cars. Maybe i'll try it on the Challenger R/T as i've never been happy with the way this car drives.
     
  26. Thorin Cain

    Thorin Cain Premium

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    Hat's off Mr. @Bowtie-muscle :bowdown: That was fantastic, what a great read! :tup:

    It should come as no surprise than when ever I need a Muscle Car tune for a seasonal event, or just for fun. This is the first shop that comes to mind :) I might not be thought of as a big Muscle car fan, and I do tend to poke fun at them whenever I get my chance :sly: But it's always done with love :dopey:
    I grew up with the same shows on TV as most of you guys did and the same movies too (Albeit a few years later :p) My Sundays were filled with the sound of Tyres screeching, V8s roaring and "Dixie" playing from under the hood of the General Lee. I watched as The Bandit gave those Smokies more than a run for their money. And then there was Bullitt :drool:

    It's always been my thinking that people will give that bit more love to the cars they like most. As wrong an assumption this may be, I find this to be the case when I come by here. I'm not saying you don't give the hot-hatches and sports cars the love. But I've always found the muscle cars to just give that extra grin factor :) So when I saw that you had plans for this little project I had to check it out. I knew it was going to be something not to miss :tup:

    Well, was it worth the wait?... Absolutely :D There is a lot of great information included here. I like the focus you put on the tyres and thank you for posting your findings on this especially :bowdown: That's some very important information which has probably been overlooked for a while by many of us. And I for one am very glad that you had the idea to check this out and highlight it for the community :):tup: It's also refreshing to see some positivity with regards to PD and their efforts to bring these, and other great cars to life for us in the GT series :cool: I've not had much experience with any of the cars in GT6 personally. I've been in about 6 of them, driven 3 and only owned one for myself. And like many other's, I've never been anywhere near the limit's with them (I'd be lying if I say I didn't try and test the top speed claim in a couple of them though :mischievous:). So my judgements on how they did recreating these cars is pretty limited, I've always leaned more towards they did a great job, myself. The one I had IRL was a big understeering French sofa, you'll never guess how it drives in GT6 ;) :lol:


    Anyway. Thank you for giving your time and sharing your findings and your thinking about these cars, tyres and tuning techniques. Great work Mr. Muscle, truly great work :D:tup: :cheers::gtpflag:
     
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  27. Bowtie-muscle

    Bowtie-muscle

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    Thank you both for reading and for your feedback. I was trying to share what I felt the community could use and was hoping it made sense and was helpful. Sounds like it worked.:D

    And gyro, since you are normally faster on my friends list than myself, do the opposite of everything I mentioned:lol:.

    Thorin, hope some of this helps with your EAG projects.:)
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2015
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  28. TurnLeft

    TurnLeft

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    Well since you're open to discussion I'll put my 2 cents in, mind you with the way our money is holding out right now it's more like 1.3 cents :lol:.

    This is something that I've had some good and some bad results with it, when you use the limiter aggressively, it does a couple of things, one it does peak out your HP but it will reduce it's peak RPM. It will also lower the peak RPM of the torque and will make it's curve fall off dramatically, but it will lower the peak torque moderately. All these things combined can sometimes give good results and yes, sometimes bad results. I think you have to check how the 2 curves are when using the limiter a lot.


    I think that some cars will benefit more than others, mainly because the way they were constructed. The F150 will benefit greatly while for the MP4 it may be better not to put it on. What I really would have liked would have been to be able to put it on like all other parts and take it off if I wanted.

    I've read from a few people that the track temperature does have an effect, I think it does but .... but before me saying that it does I'll have to run a test I have planned for that, when I do make this test I'll let you know of course ;).

    My thoughts about powering up is that there is a limit to how well a car can cope with extra power, as you know and have tested there is point where the gain you get is disappointing when compared to other cars in that same power range. Like PD has modeled different tires :bowdown:, they've also modeled different components for the cars, from aero to suspension passing brakes and the differential, there may come a point where you harm the car more by boosting it beyond it's physical capacities ( my 2cv all boosted up is one of the slowest cars there is when compared to cars with the same PP :grumpy:). There will be a few exceptions, and the reason may just be that these cars have the capacity to take on the extra power.

    Now that is sad :(, to have a car that we like very much and it doesn't live up to our expectations, hope they will bring it up a step on the next generation :tup:.

    I wasn't disappointed by them, they are like they were in my memory, a piece of (fill in the mystery word) that Chevy concocted to try to get a bigger piece of the pie. In my opinion, either buy a truck or a station wagon, you'll get more for your money, but it is cool to look at now that 48 years have passed :lol:.

    Yes, the answer is yes it did help me not only understanding muscle cars but the different tire types modeled :bowdown::bowdown::bowdown:, that was supercalifragilisticexpialidocious ;) ( your old enough to remember that word :D), this is going to help me greatly in doing replicas, just for that I give you the title of the Besterest :cool:.

    I agree with you that PD did do a good job at modeling most of the cars, there are some details that bother but a couple of clouds on a sunny day is pretty good.

    You can babble like this all you want :tup:, seriously :D. It was a great read my friend and I'm very thankful for this :tup::tup::tup:.

    For the sound bit, I sometimes put on my studio monitoring headphones and it does take the sound to an other level, you can set the sound source from different areas (cockpit/outside, etc ). I do have a few issues with it, mainly about the mix between the different samples used at the same time, wish they would give us the option to do the mix as we want, you want more engine sound? Raise that fader, You want more tire sound? Raise that fader. They also have a different room reverb for the different sounds and it bothers me, but just a little bit :lol:.

    :cheers: buddy.
     
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  29. Bowtie-muscle

    Bowtie-muscle

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    I'm not too big on using too much power limiter as it affects too many things. For some cars it can work but these are more exceptions than the rule. But I needed to illustrate possibilities to help with certain issues. In my testing, the 63 Vette did not benefit from excessive power limiting even though the power/torque graph would suggest that it would. The car may just be hindered by the suspension and narrow tires, but when I feel like getting aggravated again I will play with it some more.

    As for rigidity improvement, logic would suggest that the construction of the older cars would tend to make using it beneficial, I'm just not at a point where I can prove it. The 59 Stingray Concept Racer did get some benefit from adding, but without the ability to remove, I remain hesitant to put on cars I can Not replace or that are expensive, such as the Miura which likely could use it. But that's a 15 million dollar gamble.

    I've never really understood the idea of the El Camino, but the 87 SS is not one I would mind owning:sly:. Cars are cars and trucks are trucks, mixing is nothing more than creating a niche vehicle. Like the SSR, a convertible pick up with a useless bed? Really?:lol:

    Glad you enjoyed, I was tempted to start a thread for it but felt it was unnecessary. If I think of more that might help, I will add an amendment chapter.;)

    Edit: yes I am old enough to know that word even if I dare not attempt to spell it. And if I receive negative feedback, a "spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down":dopey:
     
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  30. Bowtie-muscle

    Bowtie-muscle

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    @TurnLeft you may have missed my edit since I got the alert while editing.

    I was thinking of discussing leafspring rear suspension vs coil but was not sure how to explain the difference. More of a feel thing anyway. And your old enough to remember them, aren't you?;)
     
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