Bowtie's Speed Shop : Ultimate Corvette Collection!

Discussion in 'GT6 Tuning' started by Bowtie-muscle, Jun 11, 2014.

  1. TurnLeft

    TurnLeft

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    Yeah I remember all right, and so does my back :grumpy:, funny you should mention the leaf spring thing, I had just given my point of view to @Thorin Cain about how it may be programmed on the original suspension but as you put on the custom adjustable it turns into a coilover system, this is just a hunch, it's going to be hard to prove, but I think PD have put more in than what we've accounted them doing. There's also the MLSD and brakes that may have different versions that are programmed, just haven't had the time to finish those tests to see how it goes. If you have ideas about the way of going about testing these, I'm all ears and eyes :tup:.
     
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  2. Bowtie-muscle

    Bowtie-muscle

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    Have to think about that one. Leaf spring to coil is likely modeled but not visually of course. But hard to prove. Try driving a 70 Nova with 0.00 Rear toe and camber. They are not adjustable unless you consider it an upgrade.
     
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  3. fordracer

    fordracer

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    @Bowtie-muscle, I have enjoyed this seires very much. Great insite, and research combined with knowledge gained from past experence. I was lucky enough in my youth to have gotten to own/race against/build or work on some of these very cars. I personaly think the PD has done a good
    job on the models I am familar with. Maybe future game models/ updates will give us the ability to modernize these fine old cars. Until then, I'm sorry, the '63 and '69 Vette's', the '65 Shelby, (had a '67 Mustang coupe I put a Shelby running gear under), the SS Chevelle, Cougar, Trans Am and Nova are all as I remember them.

    Question: Has anyone working on a Cougar tune noticed it is a 390 big block rather than a small block?
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2015
  4. Bowtie-muscle

    Bowtie-muscle

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    They are amazingly really close to what they were, but need a tire upgrade, and wider tire option in my opinion. Never really looked at the Cougar, but wasn't the 390 a big block? I was always a GM guy so not totally sure on that.

    Glad you enjoyed, you drag raced correct? So you know these cars were beasts on the strip and not the best at cornering. Another disappointing car is the GNX, never drove one but was in a Grand National once and the bottom line T-Type was better than in game. That one I did drive. Not much but it did turn, wish we had the 86 Monte Carlo SS and the rare 86 Grand Prix 2+2Aero Coupe, but like most cars from the 80s, they were underpowered. My 240hp GTP has more than those V8s. The Grand Prix only had a 165hp 305ci engine. The wifes SUV has more. Look it up, it was a cool rare car built for only 1 year. Built for NASCAR.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2015
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  5. fordracer

    fordracer

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    I nearly bought a brand new '86 Grand Prix 2+2 not long after I was married. Deceided it was too nice far the wife to tear up. (She was a little tough on iron. ruined my '77 Monte Carlo.

    Yes, I mainly drag raced. However, I was street racing long before it was a tv
    show. We had some narrow county roads we raced on. I had a'71 GTO Judge that had been wrecked and put back together. I redid the engine and trans. That was one of the baddest thing on wheels I had ever seen! And yes, it cornered VERY well.
     
  6. Bowtie-muscle

    Bowtie-muscle

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    Would love any 67, 69-71 GTO to be in the game. :( Just not on bias ply tires.
     
  7. fordracer

    fordracer

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    Yes. The 390 was a big block. '67 was the first year it was put in Mustangs and Cougars. It was pertty laid back, 325hp I think. The tune I am working on is 375hp....and yes you could build them that far. In '61 the factory put out a 401hp model.
     
  8. Bowtie-muscle

    Bowtie-muscle

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    Man I love Muscle cars.
     
  9. fordracer

    fordracer

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    I dont think the '69 was quite as stable. The '70 and '71 had a rear suspension that was unique only.to them in strength and construction.
     
  10. fordracer

    fordracer

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    Yep. Me too!
     
  11. TurnLeft

    TurnLeft

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    That is one of the games minor aggravations, what is 0.00 rear toe angle? 0.00 or 0.60 , they made a few programming corrections to fix other things and sacrificed the rear toe, I think that 0.60 is the IRL toe angle they programmed in, it's a correction factor that you have to work with, of course this is just my 1.3 cents :rolleyes: :lol:.

    Ooh, cool :cool:, we have someone who's driven some of these :tup:, and has experience in engines and trans :tup:, if ever you get the fancy of sharing your IRL experience with a bunch of guys who are trying their best at doing this in GT6 please give me a holler ;), as for you my friend @Bowtie-muscle you would be very welcomed if you ever have some time to spare, I'm sure we could find you a job in a spot you would have fun.


    This is one car I would like to have, my best friend had one when we were young and wild, it lasted only 1 year before it was totaled. It was a cool little beast to drive :cool:.
    1920px-'70_Oldsmobile_442_(Auto_classique).JPG
     
  12. fordracer

    fordracer

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    I would help any way I can.

    You my friend have picked a picture of my all time favorite muscle car. Loved the style of these cars, even if the performance was a little short of their cousins. In '81 friend of mine wrecked a '71 w-30. I bought the wreckage and put the running gear under a Cutlass S I had. What an animal! (warning!! don't miss 3rd at 5500rpms. when it came apart I had pieces in the interior with me!) In '99 I made a deal on a W-30 in gold and black. Put down $1000 and hit the road to make the rest. (truck driver at the time) made the balance in 6 weeks and came home to claim my car.....only to find my wife had spend the WHOLE thing!!! Yes...she is alive....divorced, but alive!
     
  13. Bowtie-muscle

    Bowtie-muscle

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    I have been fairly fortunate myself as the Lord has watched over me in my younger days. Sometimes I wonder how I survived or got thru a few situations but He had a plan for me. Only thing close to owning a muscle car for me was my 75 Monte, although I did drive a 71 Chevelle for a month or so. But it was my father's. 4 door with a 307 Old's engine. As a mechanic, I've known people and friends with some of these cars so I have been in, worked on or driven most. Likely would have killed myself has I owned one.

    Today, I have a beautiful wife, my gift from the Lord more precious than any of these cars could be, and 2 kids. My Faith in Jesus more important than trying to obtain one of these cars today so a video game is where I have my fun. And occasionally I have something fun to come into the shop.

    Olds 442, nice car. My Only experience is with a 71 Convertible. Fun car. Great discussion guys, love remembering these cars and the younger days.
     
  14. steefpeef

    steefpeef

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    I read your pieces with great pleasure, and being European with lot's of new insight.

    What i wondered was what kind of breaks where used? Drum-breaks? How did they tackle the power? Where there upgrades available at the time? Or was it no issue?
    The same goes for suspension, i guess feathers where used or also springs? Where they adapted too? (a part6?)

    one last question, you wrote:

    The Muscle Car lives on today, with the Camaro, Challenger and Mustang. And is imitated by many other manufacturers. Take a base line Impreza, not impressive but a good commuter or daily driver. And body mods and a big turbo and you now have a WRX, a totally different animal.
    That is the idea of a Muscle Car.

    i would never think of an Subaru as a muscle car, but i am wrong.
    What is a muscle car today? A lot of power , engine in the front, and than rear wheel drive?
    I do not think a m-class BMW as a muscle car but i can be wrong...

    I guess there is no straight answer to this, but maybe a vague answer will do...

    again thank you for your time in putting all this down!
     
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  15. Bowtie-muscle

    Bowtie-muscle

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    What I meant by the Subaru example was taking a base model and then making a sports model with bigger horsepower. That was more of the same idea being used, not really making a muscle car. M Power cars and some AMGs might have been a better example. The Camaro, Challenger and Mustang are the only TRUE muscle cars today. But the idea is being copyed even if a muscle car is not being created.

    As for the other questions, I will get back to you later when I have more time to answer.
     
  16. Bowtie-muscle

    Bowtie-muscle

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    Ok so let's look at some of your questions and I will try and answer them the best I can.
    First, brakes! Most had front disc brake with rear drum brakes as standard equipment. However, some special models did have rear disc brakes as an option from the factory. Corvettes were known to have rear disc but so did some 69 Camaro's. Not very many did though. Today, you can buy all kinds of upgrade kits to convert to 4 wheel disc and have better braking than they did back then. Even the fronts will be better.

    Power. There were some factory options you could add when ordering your car. Some were done so that they did not have to truly tell how much horsepower was being produced. Sometimes even the dealers were not totally sure for want I am to understand. But, when ordering these cars, most came with lots of horsepower to begin with.

    As for upgrades, there were plenty if you had the time and money just like today. Putting bigger carbs and a highrise better flowing intake was the quick and easy way. Pulling the engine apart and putting in a bigger cam, bigger valves or sometimes even boring the cylinders to make larger displacement were all available. Today there are many more ways to take the same engines and really produce some big hp numbers. Ignition systems also had upgrades for better reliability, since most were points and condenser, not electronic ignition like cars for the early 70s. They also had no ECUs or catalytic converters which were not mandatory until 1973 I believe. This made changing the exhaust to true dual with headers possible and made that big classic muscle sound. Cats really quiet the exhaust note more than you might think. Fuel injection was more mechanical and rare, but was around. Having carburetors made for easier ways of obtaining better fuel flow and higher volume.

    As for springs, I was trying to come up with a way to explain them but was not confident in a good explanation and therefor left it out. Many cars from the 60s had rear leaf springs, but by the early 70s were switching to rear coil springs. Leaf springs did stick around for quite awhile, as the Nova and some others like the Cuda continued to use them. They were easy to raise the rear ride height, which was the classic look, by adding one or two "leafs" or by adding a block between the springs and the rear axle tube. They did ride harder and made the suspension feel different is all I can say. Not much, but different.

    If you want to see a classic muscle car look, take the 69 Camaro Race Car, lower the front suspension just a little and then raise the rear to the max. That is what was normally done, and putting wide tires on the rear as well. Not quite that wide, but you will get the idea.

    Here is an image that might help give an idea of a basic suspension and brake system, not an older car but helps explain better I hope. Of course the front suspension is wrong, but does have leaf spring rear suspension.

    [​IMG]

    Hope that helps to answer your questions.
     
  17. Bowtie-muscle

    Bowtie-muscle

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    So I tried to show what I meant with the rear ride height, could be just a tick higher but you should see what I'm talking about.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  18. Pete05

    Pete05 Premium

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    The Camaro race car reminds me of this:
    image.jpg
    Bob Jane won the Australian Touring Car Championship in 1971 driving a 7-litre ZL1 example. It was so dominant that the ruling body changed the rules to a maximum engine capacity of 6000cc. Didn't bother Bob. He replaced the 7-litre with a 350 and duly won the 1972 trophy as well. Naturally mine is painted orange and has the number 7 as a tribute to the dual title holder.
     
  19. steefpeef

    steefpeef

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    Thank you for the explanation, things are getting clear(er) now.

    As i have a lot of muscle car tunes (more than 250 i guess, and i count a ss or sm or sh as individual tune) that is the thing i run since some weeks now, i feel the difference, i love the sound and the way the tunes behave...

    i run them most of the time at Silverstone,

    what are other good / classic tracks to run muscle cars?

    - laguna?
    - willow?
    - ?
     
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  20. Pete05

    Pete05 Premium

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    Whenever people ask me for a track recommendation, my first answer is always the Nurburgring Nordschleife. It's a track that is steeped in history and has just about every type of corner you could possibly want.
    As for the other tracks, try them all and, if you enjoy it, go for it again.
     
  21. Bowtie-muscle

    Bowtie-muscle

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    That Camaro was the best balanced of the first generation, second generation did not quite live up to it until around 1977. But the power was down compared to the 69. Orange looks good, but blue is always better:sly:
    Laguna and Willow are natural choices, I also like Silverstone. All layouts except Streets of Willow and Stowe. Brands Hatch GP has a similar flow to Watkins Glenn and Sonoma, different of course but similar. Grand Valley not a bad choice either in my opinion.
    Mt Panorama works better with muscle cars, The Ring is iconic, but takes too long to get back to the corner you messed up. When you get back to it, you forget the line you used to mess up, or over drive another shortly there after.:lol:
     
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  22. Pete05

    Pete05 Premium

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    Mount Panorama & Muscle Cars have an interesting history. Our annual 1000km endurance race used to be 500 miles up until 1973 and, for what was known as Series Production rules. The 1972 winning car was run-in on the trip from Melbourne to the track and driven on public roads in doing so. In the early/mid 60's, you basically bought a car, blueprinted/balanced what you were allowed to and put a number on the door. It was optional to remove the registration plates if you could be bothered and many couldn't. From 1963 to 1966, some entrants persisted with horsepower over lightweight and handling only to find out less than 10 laps into the 130 laps required they were in serious brake problems. Sure that power got you up & down the long straights pretty quickly but the drum brakes proved totally inadequate in arresting that speed. One of my favorite photos from Bathurst is of a Dodge Phoenix being harassed by a Mini Cooper S across the top of the mountain. No doubt the Mini got past only to have the big V8 thunder past on the run down the long straight and for the Mini to return the favor under brakes for the final corner. It wasn't until a crafty bloke working for Ford was able to convince the suits at Head Office that a 289 Windsor V8 putting out 230bhp, paired with disc brakes and sensible drivers that anything other than a 4-cylinder took the victory laurels. That opened the flood gates so to speak & lap times dropped from 3:03 in '67 down to 2:38 five years later. The 1972 race was won by a car that qualified around 12 seconds slower than pole and gave away a 200bhp advantage but it had better fuel economy & Mother Nature added some moisture to even the playing field.
     
  23. cbarbosa

    cbarbosa Premium

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    It has been a while since I logged to GTP, but Mr. B, it was worth it to read that awesome job on Muscle cars... :bowdown:

    Amazing, simply amazing! :)
     
  24. Bowtie-muscle

    Bowtie-muscle

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    Thank you, glad you enjoyed:)

    Today was somewhat of a fun day, worked on an '08 Audi S5, then an '11 WRX, and had a little fun with this also

    0724151239.jpg

    1969 Chevy Impala :D
     
  25. TurnLeft

    TurnLeft

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    That would be so fun to have this in the game for racing :lol:, I remember sitting 4 on the back seat, yeah we were small and young but man was there room in those things :cool:, a great marshmellow car :D, don`t think I ever felt a bump in the road, but you did have the impression you were in a boat on some roads.
     
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  26. Bowtie-muscle

    Bowtie-muscle

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    Floats like driving a couch:lol:
     
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  27. TurnLeft

    TurnLeft

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    ;) :lol:
     
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  28. cbarbosa

    cbarbosa Premium

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    Intermediate Level NRC Seasonal Winner! :tup:

    Changed:

    • Power Limited to 500PP
    • Sports Hard
    Very easy to drive and super responsive steering. Great cornering and mid-cornering capability.

    And the car is way good looking... :)
     
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  29. Bowtie-muscle

    Bowtie-muscle

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    Should be a fun tune on SH at 500pp. And I like the looks as well.

    Thanks for thrashing it around and enjoying, good to see it could win the event.......likely rather easily I'm sure. :D
     
  30. Bowtie-muscle

    Bowtie-muscle

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    [​IMG]

    RCZ '10

    Paint: White
    Rims: Standard

    PP: 450
    HP: 247
    WEIGHT: 1150kg
    WEIGHT DIST: 60:40
    TIRE(S): Sports Hard

    GT Auto:
    Oil Change - No
    Rigidity Improvement - No
    Front Aero - type C
    Wing - Special Wing - Type A
    Flat Floor -
    Other -

    SUSPENSION: Full Custom // Brakes: Racing
    RIDE HEIGHT - 90 / 80
    SPRINGS - 5.25 / 4.05
    COMP - 4 / 3
    EXT - 3 / 4
    ARB - 3 / 2
    CAMBER - 0.0 / 0.7
    TOE - 0.05 / -0.10
    BRAKES - 4 / 6

    TRANS: Full Custom (install all power upgrades first!)
    FINAL TO
    - 6.000
    TOP SPEED TO - 112
    1ST - 3.200
    2ND - 2.100
    3RD - 1.540
    4TH - 1.215
    5TH - 1.005
    6TH - 0.860
    7TH - n/a
    FINAL - 4.000
    (^^^Adjust for top speed here)

    LSD: Full Custom
    INITIAL - 7
    ACCEL - 12
    DECEL - 5

    CLUTCH TYPE: Triple-Plate
    CARBON SHAFT: Standard
    TORQUE CENTERING DIFF: n/a

    POWER PARTS:
    ENGINE TUNING - Stage 1
    COMPUTER - Standard
    EXHAUST - Racing
    MANIFOLD - Standard
    CATALYTIC CONVERTER - Sports
    INTAKE TUNING - Standard
    SUPERCHARGER/TURBO -
    POWER LIMITER - 98.0%

    WEIGHT REDUCTION - Stage 3
    CARBON HOOD - Body Color
    WINDOW WEIGHT - Installed

    BALLAST - 45kg @ +50
    DOWNFORCE - 0 / 105

    NOTE: Rear wing was for looks, but I adjusted suspension accordingly.
    Thought this car was pretty quick and enjoyable, easy winner in latest French Seasonal at Deep Forest Reverse.