Do you believe in God?

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Do you believe in god?

  • Of course, without him nothing would exist!

    Votes: 626 30.5%
  • Maybe.

    Votes: 369 18.0%
  • No way!

    Votes: 1,059 51.6%

  • Total voters
    2,053
Claims are just that. Claims.

One can claim to have seen the lochness monster, but without proof (pictorial evidence) you're going to seem like a lunatic.

I guess that can be transferred to the religious debate. Sure, "God" talked to you, but without proof, you're going to seem like a lunatic.

And, reading books (Bible) is like reading on the internet. Just because you read it, or someone wrote it, doesn't necessarily mean it's true. Peoples different interpretations of words or meanings over time become used and warped into what they want it to mean.

It seems religion or belief in God is something achieved by brainwashing.

My friend was told for the first 5 years of his life that God exists, all the religious stuff etc. and believes it because that's how he was raised.

Religion wasn't really discussed in my house for the first 5 years of my life, and I don't believe in a God or anything.

Studies show that children absorb the most info at or around 5 years of age. As a result, if you're constantly told God exists at that age, you're mind is warped into believing it.

Bold is the answer Sach.
 
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Contrarily, rather than hiding, I have not closed myself off to what exists beyond the scientific realm, as you have done.

You make claims of unequivocally knowing things and also tell anybody that challenges you that they simply don't have the ability to verify any of it. To me, that's hiding from being forced to answer some very tough questions.

By the conviction of the Holy Spirit. John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”

How can you be sure that the person who wrote that scripture wasn't imperfectly interpreting something? How can you be sure that you aren't imperfectly interpreting what you're reading?

You didn't answer my question at all:
If you don't hold yourself (or any of the humans who wrote the bible) to be perfect, then how can you claim that your (their) experiences and emotions constitute unequivocal proof of anything?

I don't have any pride in this regard, I simply know that God is real, and that His teachings and dealings with His people are trustworthy. I have had numerous experiences and revelations that confirm this. You regard the fact that your opinion cannot change this for me as me being arrogant, but it's simply a matter where I answer to a higher authority than you do. You also deny the fact that knowledge cannot exist outside of the human experience,...

Never said that. In fact, just one page ago, this is what I did say:

Of course evidence of anything is part of a human experience. But it also has to be measurable and quantifiable to be "evidence." Your personal experiences aren't any of those things.

---

... and you ironically write off the experiences I have as being invalid simply because they are personal experiences...

No, I write them off because there's no evidence that your experiences are reflective of anything real.

However, if a science teacher explains the workings of RNA to me in a classrooms setting, I cannot likewise accept an understanding of these teachings apart from my own personal experience, etc.

Exorcet just addressed this perfectly a few posts above. Anything my teachers every taught me can be verified by other people.

See any one of the many verses regarding the working of the Holy Spirit for the answer to this question.

Again: You hold that people are inherently sinful and imperfect. At every step of the way - from the apostles seeing Jesus' resurrection, to the writing of gospels, to the translation of the bible, to your reading and understanding of the bible - how can you say that these imperfect, sinful people didn't get it wrong?

It could be a long history of people indulging themselves in a bit of pride and hubris and justifying it with myths and misinterpretation of everyday occurrences. How can an imperfect person have infallible knowledge that any of it is true?
 
It's not my error.

It is. You're making objective value statements on behalf of something you assert is not objective.

And God is inherently non-objective himself

Which is rather odd, given that you reject the concept of God being subjective also.

Once again, there is no confusion here about this.

I'd say that's rather a confusing position to hold.

While your statement is true as it pertains to the way that scientists would assess things...

To scientists, no. I don't disagree.

No, it's nothing to do with scientists. It's about objective knowledge. You even state that "God" is not objective, so it's rather baffling you'd assert that you have proof of his existence (which, again, invalidates belief in it).

I agree, and I have exercised my own freedom to be subjective about many propositions of logic in this very thread.

Which is a shame.

A fine example of subjective logic applied to a misguided reasoning.

It's an wholly accurate description of any printed, English-language Bible that exists.

Not scientifically, no. But that is ultimately irrelevant to the fact of His existence. One result of which is that you must accept Him then by faith, and not on scientific, objective truth, which is in fact according to His plan.

Why seek to posit proof then? Proof denies faith by virtue of supplanting it.

This remains unanswered.
 
You make claims of unequivocally knowing things and also tell anybody that challenges you that they simply don't have the ability to verify any of it. To me, that's hiding from being forced to answer some very tough questions.


I never made such claims. Any person who has a relationship with God and a sensitivity to the Holy Spirit can test my claims. A scientific method, however, cannot. And I have given an answer to just about everything you have asked me. Whether those answers are sufficient for you doesn't change this fact.


How can you be sure that the person who wrote that scripture wasn't imperfectly interpreting something? How can you be sure that you aren't imperfectly interpreting what you're reading?


Through faith, and through the teaching of the Holy Spirit.


You didn't answer my question at all:
If you don't hold yourself (or any of the humans who wrote the bible) to be perfect, then how can you claim that your (their) experiences and emotions constitute unequivocal proof of anything?


I believe in divine inspiration, and I believe so because I have experienced it firsthand. This is one of the examples of irrefutable evidence I referred to which I will not desecrate in this forum.



No, I write them off because there's no evidence that your experiences are reflective of anything real.


Scientific evidences, no. And why should you writing them off concern me? It is the carrying out of free will. A faith without the option to reject it is a meaningless one. And to reiterate, your actions are directly in line with the bible's description of non-believers' behavior. If anything, you are continually confirming its validity in this regard.



Exorcet just addressed this perfectly a few posts above. Anything my teachers every taught me can be verified by other people.


So can my spiritual experiences. In fact, they have been both witnessed and confirmed by others.



Again: You hold that people are inherently sinful and imperfect. At every step of the way - from the apostles seeing Jesus' resurrection, to the writing of gospels, to the translation of the bible, to your reading and understanding of the bible - how can you say that these imperfect, sinful people didn't get it wrong?


Because again, they were divinely inspired. Please refer to the book of Acts as an example of wholly ordinary men changing the face of the world's history forever through divinely inspired acts that led to the creation of the first church.



Claims are just that. Claims.

One can claim to have seen the lochness monster, but without proof (pictorial evidence) you're going to seem like a lunatic. I guess that can be transferred to the religious debate. Sure, "God" talked to you, but without proof, you're going to seem like a lunatic.


I do not waste my time with worrying about this. The course of events in my life rather decisively confirm the opposite about me.



And, reading books (Bible) is like reading on the internet. Just because you read it, or someone wrote it, doesn't necessarily mean it's true. Peoples different interpretations of words or meanings over time become used and warped into what they want it to mean.


I cannot seriously weigh the impact of random readings on the internet in comparison with that of the biblical accounts. These are actually very different things in both scale, and nature.



"A man sprinted down the road on a dreary day."

"A man ran down the street on a day when the sun shone rather dimly."


Please do not suggest that these 'interpretations' have not been scrutinized and confirmed to be in line with correct biblical teaching if they are yet still within the canon.




It seems religion or belief in God is something achieved by brainwashing.

However inaccurate.


My friend was told for the first 5 years of his life that God exists, all the religious stuff etc. and believes it because that's how he was raised.

Religion wasn't really discussed in my house for the first 5 years of my life, and I don't believe in a God or anything.


This is a rather weak argument for 'brain washing'.


Studies show that children absorb the most info at or around 5 years of age. As a result, if you're constantly told God exists at that age, you're mind is warped into believing it.


At around the age of five I learned many things. The number of these things which caused my mind to be 'warped' may be something I'll have to research further. Cookies and milk? Recess? My ABC's? All are possible suspects when dealing with a sharp development of the intellect, as you seem to suggest. Again, you have proposed a rather weak argument.



Personally, God has taught me nothing. I've taught myself much of what I know and use today, save for a few honourable exceptions where other people have taught me things.

Not once has any of that been the work of God. And since you claim he exists based on your experiences of him, surely I can claim he doesn't based on my lack of experiences?


You could do so vainly, you have free will to. Many years ago people attributed the rising and setting of the sun to misplaced sources as well.


"you are stating contradictions"


Paradox - a statement or proposition that, despite sound reasoning from acceptable premises, leads to a conclusion that seems senseless, logically unacceptable, or self-contradictory


Yes, I have mentioned this.
 
I believe in divine inspiration, and I believe so because I have experienced it firsthand. This is one of the examples of irrefutable evidence I referred to which I will not desecrate in this forum.
Because again, they were divinely inspired. Please refer to the book of Acts as an example of wholly ordinary men changing the face of the world's history forever through divinely inspired acts that led to the creation of the first church.

You keep repeating this, but you don't actually address what I'm asking:

If people are imperfect, it follows that in any situation, a person might misinterpret an experience they have had. They may go so far as to imagine that their experience is the providence of a mythical being. If people are imperfect, as you claim, you must allow for this possibility.

So: How can the possibly fallible experiences of imperfect people be held as proof of god's existence?

You can keep repeating "I believe in divine inspiration" as much as you want, but that doesn't answer the question. How do you personally reconcile that problem?

And to reiterate, your actions are directly in line with the bible's description of non-believers' behavior. If anything, you are continually confirming its validity in this regard.

Or I'm just behaving rationally, confirming the validity of nothing other than critical thinking skills.
 
Claims are just that. Claims.

One can claim to have seen the lochness monster, but without proof (pictorial evidence) you're going to seem like a lunatic.

I guess that can be transferred to the religious debate. Sure, "God" talked to you, but without proof, you're going to seem like a lunatic.

And, reading books (Bible) is like reading on the internet. Just because you read it, or someone wrote it, doesn't necessarily mean it's true. Peoples different interpretations of words or meanings over time become used and warped into what they want it to mean.

It seems religion or belief in God is something achieved by brainwashing.

My friend was told for the first 5 years of his life that God exists, all the religious stuff etc. and believes it because that's how he was raised.

Religion wasn't really discussed in my house for the first 5 years of my life, and I don't believe in a God or anything.

Studies show that children absorb the most info at or around 5 years of age. As a result, if you're constantly told God exists at that age, you're mind is warped into believing it.

Bold is the answer Sach.

Children Are Constantly Being Told Santa Exists Hence why they believe in him,when they Grow Up they no longer Do .

Religion Isn't Brain Washing It's Faith .
 
So: How can the possibly fallible experiences of imperfect people be held as proof of god's existence?

You can keep repeating "I believe in divine inspiration" as much as you want, but that doesn't answer the question. How do you personally reconcile that problem?


It is the answer to the question, whether you like it or not. Divine inspiration calls people beyond their own limitations to be in line with the will of God. It removes their inadequacies, and in doing so, God's glory is revealed. It is direct evidence that He exists.
 
I never claimed that people can't test them. That's what I was referring to. I stand assuredly behind those statements still. There exists no contradiction there.
 
I never claimed that people can't test them. That's what I was referring to. I stand assuredly behind those statements still. There exists no contradiction there.

You've said numerous times that god exists outside the realm of science and can't be objectively verified. I'm not going to go quote-mining back through 5 pages yet again to point this out, but you've said it.
 
You've said numerous times that god exists outside the realm of science and can't be objectively verified. I'm not going to go quote-mining back through 5 pages yet again to point this out, but you've said it.


*sigh*


1. God's validity cannot be tested by the inferior limitations of science.

2. God's validity can, however, be tested through faith and the working of the Holy Spirit.



This is what I have said.
 
*sigh*


1. God's validity cannot be tested by the inferior limitations of science.

2. God's validity can, however, be tested through faith and the working of the Holy Spirit.



This is what I have said.

*sigh*

Only one other person who is regularly active in this thread would agree that people's feelings and personal experiences constitute "testing" something.
 
Any person who has a relationship with God and a sensitivity to the Holy Spirit can test my claims. A scientific method, however, cannot.

Thus not objective and cannot be held to exist objectively. J/I/C God is non-falsifiable, as I said right back at the start.
 
No i do not believe in god. I went to religious school for 10 years,so i know the deal (first communion,confirmation etc). I respect people that believe in whatever god they wish,but i have pity for people that fear god. If it makes someone feel good about their life,why would i or anyone see something wrong with that? But i will say,its all the shady pee pee toucher priests that has given christianity such a bad rap in the last couple decades or so. 🤬 those guys
 
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Full circle - Objectivity is not the decisive factor of all things valid.

Objectivity is the decisive factor in objective knowledge.

If it cannot be falsified it cannot be tested. If it cannot be tested it cannot be verified and is not objective. If it is not objective it cannot be falsified. That's the J/I/C "God" all over.
 
Full circle - Objectivity is not the decisive factor of all things valid.

Yes it is. It has to be. It's the only way to keep our knowledge untainted by human whims, deceit, bias, inherent intellectual shortcomings, etc.
 
Objectivity is the decisive factor in objective knowledge.

If it cannot be falsified it cannot be tested. If it cannot be tested it cannot be verified and is not objective. If it is not objective it cannot be falsified. That's the J/I/C "God" all over.


The definition of verification does not include reference to objectivity.
 
It seems we have to believe in the holy spirit before we can challenge "divine inspiration"

also faith is what you end up with after successful brainwashing?
 
The definition of verification does not include reference to objectivity.

Verification:
"The establishment by empirical means of the validity of a proposition."

Empirical:
"Capable of being verified or disproved by observation or experiment."
 
The definition of verification does not include reference to objectivity.

Your God cannot break the circle. It is not falsifiable, thus not testable, thus not verifiable, thus not objective - which is why it's not falsifiable.

Of course that would deny part of the description of it as omnipotent in the multiple-version, sequence-translated, politically-anthologised book of stories. But hey, if you're going to be ineffable and "paradoxical", why the hell not?
 
No i do not believe in god. I went to religious school for 10 years,so i know the deal (first communion,confirmation etc). I respect people that believe in whatever god they wish,but i have pity for people that fear god. If it makes someone feel good about their life,why would i or anyone see something wrong with that? But i will say,its all the shady pee pee toucher priests that has given christianity such a bad rap in the last couple decades or so. 🤬 those guys

If You Believe in God Of Course You will Fear God ,what is the Problem with that Exactly.
 
Your God cannot break the circle. It is not falsifiable, thus not testable, thus not verifiable, thus not objective - which is why it's not falsifiable.

Of course that would deny part of the description of it as omnipotent in the multiple-version, sequence-translated, politically-anthologised book of stories. But hey, if you're going to be ineffable and "paradoxical", why the hell not?


It can be tested by the intercession of the Holy Spirit, which comes through faith and a relationship with God the Father. This is a paradox concerning your proposed model - since we're now just repeating ourselves.
 
Sach
It can be tested by the intercession of the Holy Spirit, which comes through faith and a relationship with God the Father. This is a paradox concerning your proposed model - since we're now just repeating ourselves.

Sorry but it just seems like your describing the built in defence mechanism of Christianity.

I can't claim any particular insight into Christianity but why is it so threatened by the scientific method? I would have thought if God exsists he would transcend science along with everything else?

Placing him in this unverifiable realm just seems convenient.

I know what you could say though, the whole thing is ment to be mysterious and that adds to the strength of the faith somehow, also very convenient.

I doubt I've said anything new but that's the circle were stuck in.
 
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It can be tested by the intercession of the Holy Spirit, which comes through faith and a relationship with God the Father. This is a paradox concerning your proposed model - since we're now just repeating ourselves.

It isn't a paradox - you're just insisting that a non-falsifiable and highly subjective alleged phenomenon can be given the same weight as objective knowledge. You don't generate a paradox by inventing a new reality!

You're further insisting that it can be tested, which generates proof or disproof - and should it generate proof that denies faith in the phenomenon by supplanting it with verification.

In short, as I said originally, claiming you can prove the non-falsifiable is wrong to, and alienates you from, both atheists and those who believe.


Believing in a deity is fine. Pretending you can prove one... that's ridiculous.
 
Famine
Believing in a deity is fine. Pretending you can prove one... that's ridiculous.

True, but there is lots of things we can't prove that we accept as rational beings. How can I prove that there is other conscious beings other than my own? How can I prove that the universe was not created 5 minuets ago with appearance to age?

In the same way it is futile to try to prove or disprove God, but the believer can believe in the existence of a transcendent creator for good reasons.

And Famine, for a matter of interest have you ever read any of C.S. Lewis' apologetic work? I'm just interested in your opinion.
 
sems4arsenal
If You Believe in God Of Course You will Fear God ,what is the Problem with that Exactly.

Its b.s. so say i kill someone. Everything is fine because i confessed my sins and accepted god?
 
Its b.s. so say i kill someone. Everything is fine because i confessed my sins and accepted god?

I am not really the Murdering type of Guy but I think if I killed some one Everything will not be Fine .Killing an Innocent Sole is a Sin that is Punished in this Life and the One After . (Still Not Fine).

Fear of God is what should Prevent me from Killing Said Innocent Sole so I don't get what You Mean By that.
 
I am not really the Murdering type of Guy but I think if I killed some one Everything will not be Fine .Killing an Innocent Sole is a Sin that is Punished in this Life and the One After . (Still Not Fine).

Fear of God is what should Prevent me from Killing Said Innocent Sole so I don't get what You Mean By that.

Why do You Type like This? It's Unnecessary and Annoying.
 
sems4arsenal
I am not really the Murdering type of Guy but I think if I killed some one Everything will not be Fine .Killing an Innocent Sole is a Sin that is Punished in this Life and the One After . (Still Not Fine).

Fear of God is what should Prevent me from Killing Said Innocent Sole so I don't get what You Mean By that.

Exactly,thats an example. Im not the murdering either. Thats just what kind of culture the church cultivates. Obv. on a smaller scale at times
 
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