Do you believe in God?

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Do you believe in god?

  • Of course, without him nothing would exist!

    Votes: 625 30.5%
  • Maybe.

    Votes: 368 18.0%
  • No way!

    Votes: 1,058 51.6%

  • Total voters
    2,050
Yeah, but how long would it take to realise it doesn't exist, if it didn't?
That depends on many factors.

My point is that sticking to unproven theory is mad
It also isn't science.

they should always be suspected so much that when an experiment to prove something is run, say thrice, and nothing is found, then the theory is false.
Why is 3 a magic number? We have probability theory to tell us how many times we need to run the experiment to be confident in the result. This is what every scientist does so everyone has already taken your concern into account.


There is a problem with most scientist trying to stick to the theory by modifying it just a bit or blaming other conditions for the experiment's failure. That slows down the progress.
Where?




Indeed it would do that, but how long would it take them to confess that they were wrong?
However long it took to generate conclusive evidence that they're wrong.
If they were stubborn, they could waste billions of money running the experiment countless times before confessing that their hypothesis is false.
If they're stubborn, they should be scientists, and probably wouldn't be. Who would be reading all their papers if they made no logical conclusions or were found to be manipulating data? They would becomes jokes in the greater scientific community.





Always there?
But how?
We might found out if we looked.
That is no adequate answer
It's not even an answer, we don't know is the current answer. I'm just trying to point that claiming that science has backed itself into a corner isn't accurate. We're not left with saying either everything came from nothing or magic made it. We don't know, we need to keep looking and hypothesizing answers like I did.




Science should never stick to an answer that lacks any bit of proof through observations. But until then, "we don't know" is the answer. Then, for personal views, you can try to think it yourself: "it always was", "God created it", "42", they're as viable answers until proven otherwise. Their scientific value is nothing, but they do have philosophical value.

It always was is far more plausible than the other two, though it's not exactly fleshed out. There is no evidence for God, and "42" doesn't even make sense. If people want to have personal views fine, I don't care to have one. I'd rather just know.
 
BobK
So I'm supposed to get my morals from a book that advocates bashing babies' brains out? Riiiigghhttt.

Ignoring the baby head bashing for a moment, there is an important question that we are missing here that needs answering. Namely: when it comes to morals and religion / religious texts, which came first? Are our morals based on the religion or is the religion based on our morals?
 
Well, not completely out of the blue, but surprises, eg. new particles that are found while conducting some other experiment. Or accidental proof for some other theory.

Most theories' hypotheses are false in a way or other, even Higgs' might turn out different to how it was supposed to.


TL;DR: I am against stubbornly conducting the same experiment countless times to prove a hypothesis - if it can't be proven in the first few tries, it's false. If the conditions required are almost impossible to create, research how to create them relatively easy before attempting the experiment.

It's not all that black and white. We're at the point where we're crashing cars into each other over a pond and looking at the debris through binoculars, trying to figure out what's inside them before the little bits and pieces sink. You can't expect success on the first try, or the second, or the third.

It's also not enough to know that you failed. It's important to know why, otherwise those "surprising" discoveries of yours won't happen.
 
It also isn't science.

Ehh, I am not so sure about that. Supersymmetry theory is not proven, it has parts that are just hypotheses - is it pseudo-science then? I agree that theories that rely a lot on hypotheses like the Superstring theory are on the gray area between science and pseudo-science, though.


Why is 3 a magic number? We have probability theory to tell us how many times we need to run the experiment to be confident in the result. This is what every scientist does so everyone has already taken your concern into account.

Three, it was just a throw. Don't believe everyone has taken that into account, they're humans. The weakest link is always the human.



A native English speaker, who doesn't recognise such a structure?

Amongst the scientists, to name it. There was a small surprise that put the Supersymmetry theory in doubt, but the theory's creators just disregarded it saying "(it) was actually expected". How in the hell is it "actually expected" if it's against the hypothesis? Trying to bend the theory much?

See it here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20300100

Yes, I know there are different versions of the Supersymmetry theory. But was that version created before or after the experiment, they could just have pulled that to disregard the conflicting discovery, don't you think?


However long it took to generate conclusive evidence that they're wrong.

So they'd be running the experiment until some other research group finds contradicting evidence?


If they're stubborn, they should be scientists [sic], and probably wouldn't be. Who would be reading all their papers if they made no logical conclusions or were found to be manipulating data? They would becomes jokes in the greater scientific community.

Oh, there's been people like that. For example, the leading chemists opposed Lamarck's watertight evidence of chemical elements in favour of the old four-element theory in the late 18th century.

Quantum mechanics were thought to be completely a ridiculous hypothesis by the competing scientists, as well as x-rays.

Everyone is stubborn to an extent, and people like to hold on to their creations.


We might found out if we looked.

But then, how how? And how before that?
There is always the question of "How?"


It's not even an answer, we don't know is the current answer. I'm just trying to point that claiming that science has backed itself into a corner isn't accurate. We're not left with saying either everything came from nothing or magic made it. We don't know, we need to keep looking and hypothesizing answers like I did.

Indeed. But scientifically, we should never believe in these hypotheses.

Why I always write for keeping religion/belief/faith away from science itself.
The scientists are free to believe what they want as long as that doesn't conflict with their work. So are others too.


It always was is far more plausible than the other two, though it's not exactly fleshed out. There is no evidence for God, and "42" doesn't even make sense. If people want to have personal views fine, I don't care to have one. I'd rather just know.

Under what evidence it is more plausible? Prove before you claim, please, unless it's only your belief. To my knowledge, it has no more proof than the two other. There is no evidence for the existence having always been. In fact, according to current evidence and research, we don't know anything before the Big Bang (which itself is also partially a hypothesis too).

Also, you seem to have a personal view that is based on belief. There is no proof the existence has been forever, but if you think it is more viable than others, you believe so. Hence a personal view/belief.

42 is the answer to the question in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Sadly they don't know what was the question.

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👍

This God looks like a loving, caring father figure for humankind.

I'll quote myself.
So I'm supposed to get my morals from a book that advocates bashing babies' brains out? Riiiigghhttt.
Nope. What has morals to do with believing in God? Only fundamentalist Jews and fundamentalist Christians think they have to follow the Bible literally.

Although, the New Testament has some pretty good ethics. So is the main line in the Old Testament, although some of the punishments are a bit cruel and then there are those weird stories. They both have their ethics based on truth being the ultimate principle, after all.

Remember that the Old Testament was written around 2500-3000 years ago, and in the Israelites' society obedience was vital for their survival. It's a law book for a slightly nomadic people that was surrounded by other, hostile peoples.

Worst mistake people can do is to not understand the context something is written at. This applies to fundamentalists too, for example they keep whining about there not being under-age sexual relationships mentioned in the Bible and that way they try to moralise modern people. Sure, the Israelites became of age at 13 years at the time the Old Testament was written. Context matters.

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For Homeforsummer's post below:


About 70% of what you addressed here is answered in the conversation between me and Exorcet, check there, I'm not going to write it again.

The remaining 30%:
Incidentally, I'm not entirely sure matter and energy for nothing is a physical impossibility. My grasp of quantum theory is very limited, but I do recall it's possible for particles to literally appear from nowhere, and disappear in the same way.

Yeah, they do appear and disappear, but they always exist. The appearances and disappearances have a correlation AFAIK.

Very weird indeed, but not appreciably more weird than a big, equally infinite dude in the sky making everything come into being...

I never said it has proof. Hence it is belief. Existence from the infinity is easier though to attribute to something that is all-powerful and all-capable (except for hot porridge vs. all-capability paradoxes and such), instead of random matter.
 
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Heh, we and the existence would be even more meaningless if we could just replicate it.

That is where our beliefs differ. You think the universe lacks meaning without a creator, I find it overwhelmingly profound regardless of how it was created. I don't doubt that finding out how it came to be would be even more mind-boggling, and considerably more interesting than finding it was all just some being's master plan.

But now to think of it, how come the universe or the existence could have been created/came from nothing, there must have been something it came from.

You've fallen back into the "it came from nothing" trap. That, at the moment, is inaccurate compared to our best theories. The universe has always existed, it was just infinitely hot and infinitely dense before the big bang. Not necessarily easy to understand, but much more logical than it literally springing into existence from nothing at all.

The "something" the universe we know of came from, was itself - just a hell of a lot smaller.

Incidentally, I'm not entirely sure matter and energy for nothing is a physical impossibility. My grasp of quantum theory is very limited, but I do recall it's possible for particles to literally appear from nowhere, and disappear in the same way.

Very weird indeed, but not appreciably more weird than a big, equally infinite dude in the sky making everything come into being...
 
Ehh, I am not so sure about that. Supersymmetry theory is not proven, it has parts that are just hypotheses - is it pseudo-science then? I agree that theories that rely a lot on hypotheses like the Superstring theory are on the gray area between science and pseudo-science, though.

Theories with many hypothesis are fine as long as they are acknowledged as such.




Three, it was just a throw. Don't believe everyone has taken that into account, they're humans. The weakest link is always the human.
No, it has been taken into account.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confidence_interval

It's one of the biggest difference between professional experiments and experiments done by everyday people. The latter do something once or twice and think they're done.






Amongst the scientists, to name it. There was a small surprise that put the Supersymmetry theory in doubt, but the theory's creators just disregarded it saying "(it) was actually expected". How in the hell is it "actually expected" if it's against the hypothesis? Trying to bend the theory much?

See it here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20300100

That's one source, not most scientists, as you put it.

Yes, I know there are different versions of the Supersymmetry theory. But was that version created before or after the experiment, they could just have pulled that to disregard the conflicting discovery, don't you think?
Or it could just be that the issue wasn't such a big one that all of the theory had to fall. Unfortunately I can't look at the link right now.



So they'd be running the experiment until some other research group finds contradicting evidence?
It could be their own group.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confidence_interval


Oh, there's been people like that. For example, the leading chemists opposed Lamarck's watertight evidence of chemical elements in favour of the old four-element theory in the late 18th century.

Quantum mechanics were thought to be completely a ridiculous hypothesis by the competing scientists, as well as x-rays.

Everyone is stubborn to an extent, and people like to hold on to their creations.

Yet the periodic table and quantum mechanics are pretty much accepted as given today. Those who were stubborn could not make their way of thinking endure, it's hard to do that with the scientific method.



But then, how how? And how before that?
There is always the question of "How?"
Scientific method.



Indeed. But scientifically, we should never believe in these hypotheses.
We don't, it's why they are hypotheses.




Under what evidence it is more plausible? Prove before you claim, please, unless it's only your belief. To my knowledge, it has no more proof than the two other. There is no evidence for the existence having always been. In fact, according to current evidence and research, we don't know anything before the Big Bang (which itself is also partially a hypothesis too).

Also, you seem to have a personal view that is based on belief. There is no proof the existence has been forever, but if you think it is more viable than others, you believe so. Hence a personal view/belief.

Of the three, two are valid as explanations. Only one doesn't violate mass conservation.
 
I agree with all above regarding science. Though people, even the most brilliant scientists are prone to human mistakes; if they get excited over the results of an experiment they may release the results incomplete, without proving them well enough. Remember the faster-than-light neutrino incident - the scientists released the results without making sure they had removed the possibility of possible errors and oversights. And those were top-class scientists.

Of the three, two are valid as explanations. Only one doesn't violate mass conservation.

Well, imagine that God has an infinite amount of energy. Now if he were to create a universe, it would require just a finite amount of energy. No laws of physics would be violated (well, at least not the law of conservation) - although this is pretty far-fetched and not to be taken seriously.
 
I agree with all above regarding science. Though people, even the most brilliant scientists are prone to human mistakes; if they get excited over the results of an experiment they may release the results incomplete, without proving them well enough. Remember the faster-than-light neutrino incident - the scientists released the results without making sure they had removed the possibility of possible errors and oversights. And those were top-class scientists.

You mean they published their findings so that they could be peer-evaluated? Which ultimately lead to it being shown as an error rather than faster-than-light travel. Kind of what science is all about - observe something and put forward an idea, then let your peers pull the idea and findings apart to validate it.
 
If you spend all day every day in your room home alone 99% of the time, you'll start to believe in SOMETHING.

Eh? I spend ALL of my time in my room alone on my computer (hence my youtube name of ThatAntisocialKid), but I don't believe in any gods.
 
Nup. An individual's moral code may be subjective, but morality is objective, derived through logic (which is objective) from objective rights - not the pesky codified subjective ones calling themselves "rights". Rape is using force to deny an individual their (objective) right to their own body and thus rape is objectively immoral.

See the Human Rights thread for more. And this also answers the question posed - logic is the "higher power".

That is just great for you that you have come to the conclusion rape is wrong and I'm sure you view other acts in such a way but that does nothing when discussing morality in a larger scale. Where do you get off telling someone that views rape or anything that fits the bill as reasonable and best for them? You say morality is objective and I agree. The means in which you have come to that conclusion prove faulty. One could have come to a logical conclusion by reasoning that rape would be pleasurable for himself and beneficiary to passing on his genetic line. What you are left with is a sad state where you can't say it is wrong only that you disagree. Who decides whats wrong? Only can say it is wrong from your perspective. A great example of your inability to live out your atheism.
 
That is just great for you that you have come to the conclusion rape is wrong and I'm sure you view other acts in such a way but that does nothing when discussing morality in a larger scale. Where do you get off telling someone that views rape or anything that fits the bill as reasonable and best for them? You say morality is objective and I agree. The means in which you have come to that conclusion prove faulty. One could have come to a logical conclusion by reasoning that rape would be pleasurable for himself and beneficiary to passing on his genetic line. What you are left with is a sad state where you can't say it is wrong only that you disagree. Who decides whats wrong? Only can say it is wrong from your perspective. A great example of your inability to live out your atheism.

So if someone were to rape you, then that's all right?

Nice. I hope you enjoy it.

-

There is no perspective in rape. Rape is a violation of a person's rights. One person's right to self-satisfaction ends where another person's rights begin. That is all that is needed to defend a moral code that views rape as wrong, murder as wrong, theft as wrong and any stupid thing you do to yourself in your own time as your own business.

I'd point out that Confucius came up with the "Do Unto Others" philosophy over five hundred years before Christ did. So yes, you can justify morality without a God.

And research into the survival value of altruism shows you can justify it with science, too. Not just philosophy. Studies show that altruism (moral compassion) is a survival trait that benefits the human race. In other words, to "Do Unto Others" is, in fact, "best for you". :D
 
That sounds a lot like sitting on God's lap to slap him. Explain your basis for trusting your evolved brain from a lesser being that is after all just a collection of chemicals firing off to provide you with a accurate representation of reality? Why trust the non-aggression principle now? What about previous moral consensus formed in other cultures at various time like Nazi Germany?
 
That sounds a lot like sitting on God's lap to slap him. Explain your basis for trusting your evolved brain from a lesser being that is after all just a collection of chemicals firing off to provide you with a accurate representation of reality?
I missed the part where that is a bad thing. Beats old books.

What about previous moral consensus formed in other cultures at various time like Nazi Germany?

You missed the point, consensus isn't rights. Consensus was Nazi Germany, Or Christianity condemning homosexuality.
 
Well you are aware that natural selection and homosexuality are not compatible or make mush sense as that would hinder progress. So would the many genetic impurities that some have made a case for need to be accelerated (Hitler's obsession). For example we don't promote the death of the mentally handicap or remove their rights. But you can see how that might be a problem when you consider what evolution teaches. Telling a child he is a animal is child abuse in my opinion. You are picking and choosing which rights may or may not be promoted by admission of evolution. You speak of rights but where is the proof that you have any?

Reminder I argue these points to test the ability to live out your Atheism. It is a bit sad that niky would get from my post that I would think rape is alright. For God has allowed for things like morality to be established in society and you can see this clearly when you seek out explanation for it. Are we or aren't we living in a cosmic accident? Where do you get your meaning from? To quote atheist Albert Camus "There is but one truly serious philosophical problem and that is suicide." A lot of the points I'm making can be seen on the youtube channel askcliffe. He argues them much more gracefully then I lol.
 
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Some of the people i noticed that were saying there is a god(which there is) are from the southeasteastern united states which is the bible belt and im in the smack dab center of the bible belt. Alabama. I do believe there is a god but im not crazy and saying that he is coming back in the next 5-10 years. It will probably be a while. So we will find out when we die and im ready are you. What if there isnt a god? Okay. You just can never knoww.
 
Also, christianity is the only religion thay has not been proven false or innacurate. They have actually proven some stuff true.
 
That sounds a lot like sitting on God's lap to slap him. Explain your basis for trusting your evolved brain from a lesser being that is after all just a collection of chemicals firing off to provide you with a accurate representation of reality? Why trust the non-aggression principle now? What about previous moral consensus formed in other cultures at various time like Nazi Germany?

Because that wasn't a moral basis at all but rather the will of a very disturbed man?

Also, please stop using the word logical, as I suspect you don't actually understand what it means.

As for my brain, I trust it to a degree. Which is how most scientists work as well, thus the need for peer review and repeatability in tests. Something the Bible has never, ever, bothered with.

Also, christianity is the only religion thay has not been proven false or innacurate. They have actually proven some stuff true.

Sources?

Also, the South-east states tend to have the highest rate of "faith" while also having the, generally, the worst ratings in terms of education.
 
Well you are aware that natural selection and homosexuality are not compatible or make mush sense as that would hinder progress.
They are perfectly compatible, just look at the world around you, they both exist.

So would the many genetic impurities that some have made a case for need to be accelerated (Hitler's obsession). For example we don't promote the death of the mentally handicap or remove their rights. But you can see how that might be a problem when you consider what evolution teaches.
No, because evolution teaches nothing. You don't go to evolution for morality, you go to evolution to advance understanding of health and the understanding of the development of humans.

Telling a child he is a animal is child abuse in my opinion.
I wouldn't consider the truth child abuse.


You are picking and choosing which rights may or may not be promoted by admission of evolution. You speak of rights but where is the proof that you have any?
Evolution has no impact on rights, Famine has directed you to the Human Rights thread multiple times, you will find out more about rights there.

Where do you get your meaning from?
Why is meaning even needed?

So we will find out when we die... what if there isnt a god?

What if there is?

What if he doesn't like Christians for spreading lies and following a false religion and God?

What if he only allows atheists into heaven because he hid himself and thus expect all reasonable people to decide against believing in him?

Your chances of reaching paradise are no better than mine, not even in the slightest.

Also, christianity is the only religion thay has not been proven false or innacurate. They have actually proven some stuff true.
The entire story of the creation of the world is completely false. Christianity also teaches that homosexuality is wrong despite it being a free choice*. There's plenty against it.

*choice as in there is nothing wrong with it, not making claims on how one becomes homosexual.
 
This thread is getting hard to follow, are we now saying that throwing kids into walls and raping young ladies is morally wrong but since there is no consensus on these things there is no god?
 
Why is meaning even needed?

Read the rest of my post. Why not just commit suicide? what are you living for? I doubt you would be on the forum discussing the things you are if you lived without meaning. I grew up in CT and also found my faith there so i am out of the Bible belt conversation.

So something that is a free choice is deemed right? That can not be what you are really saying. Even if you are born a certain way (which isn't proven in the case of homosexuality) or make the decision "freely" that doesn't get you out of the jurisdiction of federal courts in America. So why is it different with God's judgment?

"The entire story of the creation of the world is completely false." Considering there is plenty of reason to believe when Genesis describes creation it uses a form of Hebrew Poetry it will be hard to prove that one, but please do try.

* arora I have heard this argument before please quote scripture and I will address the issue next time I am on here.
 
"The entire story of the creation of the world is completely false." Considering there is plenty of reason to believe when Genesis describes creation it uses a form of Hebrew Poetry it will be hard to prove that one, but please do try.

I've been saying for probably years in this thread that genesis does not describe the creation but no one will have anything to do with it. It means very little if you believe what the book says or not when you can't even understands what it says.

oh well, such a boring and small aspect of the god debate.
 
Why is meaning even needed?

Read the rest of my post. Why not just commit suicide? what are you living for? I doubt you would be on the forum discussing the things you are if you lived without meaning.
I don't need you to define what the meaning of my life should be. I find plenty of meaning in life and I have zero faith in a higher power of any sort, let alone absurd hypocrisy suggested by Christianity. My life has meaning because my actions will ripple out to impact the lives of others, and in turn throughout existence.

So something that is a free choice is deemed right? That can not be what you are really saying. Even if you are born a certain way (which isn't proven in the case of homosexuality) or make the decision "freely" that doesn't get you out of the jurisdiction of federal courts in America. So why is it different with God's judgment?

Did you miss the whole discussion on morality from Famine? What is moral and right is what you do that doesn't deny another person's rights. In short, don't wrong others, and by wrong, when me violate their freewill, assuming they aren't trying to violate your freewill.

Homosexuality is the first example you thought of? And in such an ignorant way? More so considering being a homosexual doesn't mean you interfere with others in a disagreeable way. A crime requires a victim and homosexuality doesn't have victims that you wouldn't find in heterosexuality - eg rape.

God's judgement, if we are to go from the Bible, is wildly hypocritical and more or less an ego trip for Him. My issues with Christianity are for more with it rather than the idea of a deity, and I disagree with it purely on the core ideas it exists - the Abrahamic God.
 
Existence from the infinity is easier though to attribute to something that is all-powerful and all-capable (except for hot porridge vs. all-capability paradoxes and such), instead of random matter.

Easier to attribute for you. The concept of replacing "infinite universe" with "infinite being that created an infinite universe" seems to add nothing more than an extra layer of nonsense to something which is already difficult to understand.

I know theists get tetchy when you say "God of the gaps" but that's really all it is. Pick something we don't fully understand, like the beginnings of the universe, and fill it with God. Bingo, difficult question answered. Just doesn't cut it for me, I'm afraid. That it's somehow preferable to trying to work out the actual answers seems like a step backwards for humanity.
 
Also, christianity is the only religion thay has not been proven false or innacurate. They have actually proven some stuff true.
How do you prove a religion like Buddhism false or "inaccurate" when it's heavily based on the teachings of well-being? :odd:
 
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