Do you believe in God?

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Do you believe in god?

  • Of course, without him nothing would exist!

    Votes: 626 30.5%
  • Maybe.

    Votes: 368 17.9%
  • No way!

    Votes: 1,059 51.6%

  • Total voters
    2,052
Because when you or anyone else goes to mass there is no evidence of god there. Unless of course, you'd like to prove this without resorting to "I/he/she/they can feel god in my spirit" etc.
 
well it does depend on whether or not you believe the Bible is fact or not

As someone pointed out above with the Spiderman comic; if I believe it, does that alone make it fact? As a child I believed in Santa...

...

I'm not one for organized religion, but over the years I've settled into a sort of gray area on the God topic. Do I believe in an (apparently) loving god who believes every single person that will ever exist is born guilty of sin? Nope. Do I think the world is not a few billion years old, but only a fraction of that? Nope. Do I believe in the Big Bang theory, or similar such "creation of the known" theories? Yes, sort of. But I always end up back at the same question; for the big bang to start, there must've been a reason. I can't wrap my head around the idea of things just always existing; they must've been created, somehow and sometime. But then, on a twist of the Latin Quis custodiet ipsos custodes, who creates the creator(s)?

So to answer the question of the thread; I'm not sure. I believe there's powers out there we don't comprehend, and perhaps in that sense, it'd be a "god" of some sort. But organized religion does very little for me.
 

I'm sorry, what? There is nothing to explain there.

The analyses were conducted with absolute and unquestionable scientific precision and they were documented with a series of microscopic photographs. These analyses sustained the following conclusions:

Strange that I can't find any record of these "microscopic photographs" (perhaps I'm missing the joke here). Also strange is how it states the the analyses were conducted with "unquestionable scientific precision" despite that everything in science is, and will continue to be, questioned. Precision is one of many areas that are constantly being improved through development in technology.

Daniel Sanford of New Jersey journeyed to Betania, Venezuela from 11/12/98 til 11/15/98 on a pilgrimage with an organized Prayer Group from Medford Lakes, NJ. On 11/13/98, as part of the pilgrimage, they went to see the Bleeding Host of Betania at the Chapel of the Augustinian Nuns in Los Teques. Our Spiritual Director, Father Mazzarella, said Daily Mass. When we finished, he opened the Tabernacle door, which contained the Bleeding Host. The Host was in flames, bleeding, and there was a pulsating heart bleeding in the center of the Host. The Group watched this for about 30 seconds or so, then the Host returned to normal.

Amazing! This is probably the most definite proof of a higher being that anyone has ever found! Good thing they recorde-

HOWEVER, Daniel did manage to film this miracle with his camcorder!

That's a damn, coincdental shame then, isn't it?
 
To address some valid points you have made.

1)No it contained details of well documented and scientifically discussed hypothesis on the subject, rather than 'god did it because it says so in a book we can't prove the providence of'.

Why the sureness that science one day will discover how the universe came into existence from nothing? We have no reason to in my opinion. I know my gap filler to you is "God did it" but why bring that up when it applies to you or any other Atheist as well if you refer to science one day figuring it out? It seems you rest assured that such a process could take place but with the lack of any evidence available you must admit that conclusion is not one you can hang your hat on. Do you believe that their was some eternal quantum state? If so you have to then deal with infinite regression.

The proposed idea in the previous link you sent me on something of this sort seemed like an escape route in all honesty. Just a failed attempt to get away from being bound by the current limitations we have for the universe we live in and the only one we know of. Do you think that we are on a infinite time line? If that's the case I would like to hear what brought you to that considering all the problems that idea brings.


2)No you simply accept that god always has been, which means you are hit by the exact same issue of what caused god to exists/ where did god come from/what was before him.

Not so fast. With the belief in a supreme eternal omnipotent being you get a few perks ;) The understanding that miracles could take place (breaking of the natural law) to name one and the get out card that he would not need to be limited to laws and rules he created for us to live under unless he so chose to limit himself but that itself is debatable in the Christian circle. Remember that a transcendent being isn't out in space somewhere fiddling his thumbs bound by these things but removed from such limitations.

3)Why would you get a noble prize if I was able to prove something that would most certainly see me collect it?

What I was saying is if you go out and prove that I will follow suit with my attempt at winning the noble prize.

Also please put in laymen terms your understanding of Darwin's quote that you insinuated I purposely distorted. I don't see how the mention of Darwin questioning such things being worth ridicule.
 
To address some valid points you have made.

Next time, quote whoever asked the questions that you're answering, please. I'm sure that person (Scaff) can answer these better than I can, but I'll have a go at it anyways...

1)...Why the sureness that science one day will discover how the universe came into existence from nothing?...

Because we now have a nice, long history of scientific methods doing just that: answering questions once thought to be unanswerable.

...We have no reason to in my opinion...

I suppose that may be true for anybody who believes god is the answer to it all, but there are plenty of rational, curious, and open-minded people who very much have a reason to answer these questions.

...I know my gap filler to you is "God did it" but why bring that up when it applies to you or any other Atheist as well if you refer to science one day figuring it out?...

I see what you're trying to do there (and many others before you in this thread have tried to do the same): You're trying to compare faith in god to "faith" in "science."

Well, first of all, the word faith belongs nowhere near discussion about science. If you don't know why, look up the meaning of the word faith.

Second, "science" is not an answer to anything. It's the method for finding the answers. And the answers that science finds can be believed because they are supported by evidence. No faith is required, only the ability to observe.

...It seems you rest assured that such a process could take place but with the lack of any evidence available you must admit that conclusion is not one you can hang your hat on...

Again, the scientific method has answered many questions once thought to be unanswerable. There's no reason to think this is any different. It may take a very long time, but one day I really do believe we will have a fairly solid idea about how it all began.

And since all scientific theories have at least some evidence, I find them to be much better places to "hang my hat" than the completely evidence-free idea of god.

...The proposed idea in the previous link you sent me on something of this sort seemed like an escape route in all honesty. Just a failed attempt to get away from being bound by the current limitations we have for the universe we live in and the only one we know of. Do you think that we are on a infinite time line? If that's the case I would like to hear what brought you to that considering all the problems that idea brings...

That actually sounds exactly like religion to me. Any questions we haven't been able to objectively answer are deemed to be the work of god. Those of us who truly understand that our knowledge is "bound by current limitations" much prefer the answer "we don't know" as opposed to "god did it."

2)...Not so fast. With the belief in a supreme eternal omnipotent being you get a few perks ;) The understanding that miracles could take place (breaking of the natural law) to name one and the get out card that he would not need to be limited to laws and rules he created for us to live under unless he so chose to limit himself but that itself is debatable in the Christian circle. Remember that a transcendent being isn't out in space somewhere fiddling his thumbs bound by these things but removed from such limitations...

An ancient book of myths that convinces people they are justified in feeling superior to others who don't share their beliefs?

If you really believe all the stuff in this paragraph, then good on ya, I suppose, but you've got to see how ludicrous this all sounds to people who like a little rational order and logic in their lives.

You spend so much time harping on the gaps in our current science-based understanding of the world, yet you are satisfied by inconsistent, self-contradictory, circular-logic tripe like that?

3)...Also please put in laymen terms your understanding of Darwin's quote that you insinuated I purposely distorted. I don't see how the mention of Darwin questioning such things being worth ridicule.

I'm going to let Scaff address that, if he's any patience left to do so. He already very clearly laid out the way in which you twisted and misused Darwin's quote.
 
Why this uhm...."fetish" for thinking that if you don't believe the universe came from (a) god you must think it came from nothing? Many religious people seem to think like that.

Is god or nothing the only two options to you?
 
Why this uhm...."fetish" for thinking that if you don't believe the universe came from (a) god you must think it came from nothing? Many religious people seem to think like that.

Is god or nothing the only two options to you?

God is the only option. Duh.
 
Why this uhm...."fetish" for thinking that if you don't believe the universe came from (a) god you must think it came from nothing? Many religious people seem to think like that.

Is god or nothing the only two options to you?

Yep, no such thing as a grey area.
 
Why the sureness that science one day will discover how the universe came into existence from nothing?

You've now ignored two of my posts dealing with this concept. I'm aware that you're responding to a lot of people, but ignoring responses to a fairly large area of your misunderstanding isn't the best way to go about discussing the topic.

Even in the two lines of text above, you're vocalising two fairly fundamental misconceptions.

One, that the universe (and everything subsequently within) came from "nothing".

Two, that science will one day definitely find out how the universe came to be. Not knowing something for certain isn't adequate reasoning for scientists to simply give up searching. The journey is as important as the destination, even if our destination is a big sign saying "err, we're not quite sure just yet".
 
Two, that science will one day definitely find out how the universe came to be. Not knowing something for certain isn't adequate reasoning for scientists to simply give up searching. The journey is as important as the destination, even if our destination is a big sign saying "err, we're not quite sure just yet".

but we don't need science to find out where the universe came from because we already know
 
but we don't need science to find out where the universe came from because we already know
You believe that you know. Belief is not evidence of reality - and if we stuck with what we believe based on reading a much-translated, politically-anthologised collection of works of dubious origin, we'd have no actual knowledge of the universe at all.
 
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Two, that science will one day definitely find out how the universe came to be. Not knowing something for certain isn't adequate reasoning for scientists to simply give up searching. The journey is as important as the destination, even if our destination is a big sign saying "err, we're not quite sure just yet".

I don't think we can ever find out how the universe came to be.

Think it like that we are a result of a mathematical operation (which, technically we are as all science and existence can be presented mathematically).

Now, let's say the result ("us and our universe and all the being") is two.

2.

The operation is how we (in this example, "2") came to be.

Now what operation results in us, "2"?

1*2?
ln(e^2)?
2/1?
2^1?
√(4)?
1+1?
3-1?
4-2?
5-3?
etc.

There are infinite possible operations that result in two. As in any operation, the result alone isn't adequate to find out what the operation and its operatives were.

Now, we, our universe and the whole existence are just the result, we cannot possibly find out what was "in the beginning".
But is it even necessary to know something like that?


You believe that you know. Belief is not evidence of reality.

ADo I believe in the Big Bang theory, or similar such "creation of the known" theories? Yes, sort of.

That's already erroneous, SlipZtrEm, science is not to be believed in. There are facts that just are, and models (theories) that are proven because of the facts - they need and must not be believed in because they are. Then, there are models (theories) that aren't proven because they either lack the necessary proof (not enough facts to support them) or try to prove themselves - they are just hypotheses. These shall never be believed in, as belief in unproven theories hinders the advance of science by making people stick to what they believe disregarding possible evidence of other possibilities. Science is all about questioning things, not believing.

That is the fundamental difference between science and religion. The first has facts that are, and the latter is all about belief. Sadly though, most people believe in what the scientists throw to them, even though they are just hypotheses. That's the problem of older scientists too, they start believing in their own hypotheses and close their eyes from other possibilities - hence why younger scientists who aren't yet bound by the existing hypotheses make the most important findings.

Hence the scientific stance to God's existence is "just a hypothesis until proven". No "doesn't exist", because we cannot know for sure (there aren't enough facts to support that God doesn't exist, neither there are enough to support that God exists).

If you knowingly say God doesn't exist it is as much belief/faith as saying that God exists. Though, God's possible existence doesn't have to be taken into account in science, because it stands just as an unproven hypothesis. Science doesn't need God (at least not at its current state as God is unproven), but it doesn't necessarily rule God out.


However belief is completely fine as long as it's not brought into science, in personal views that is.

Haven't we already gone through all this? Seriously, almost any possible argument against and for has been used here.
 
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but we don't need science to find out where the universe came from because we already know

Then would you be so kind as to provide evidence for this?

Coming from the person who believes a photo of mass being held in church is proof that god exists, I'm not quite sure that anything you can add has any validity any more.

I don't think we can ever find out how the universe came to be.

Whether we can or we can't, the point is that we do what we can to find out. As has been discussed ad nauseum in this thread, the answer "we don't yet know" is not (and should not be) interchangeable with "it must be God, then".

We can't be sure we don't know for sure unless we look. Suggesting "we'll never know" isn't an attitude that advances civilisation.

look at the link I posted yesterday. Is that proof that God is real?

No. You've not yet posted anything even remotely close to proving God is real.
 
No. You've not yet posted anything even remotely close to proving God is real.

how is that link not even close? explain how a piece of bread can start gushing human blood and light itself on fire
and what about all of the healing miracles at places like Lourdes? Explain that!
 
Kingland093
but we don't need science to find out where the universe came from because we already know

And again, a great example of why religion is of no use to mankind. Those of a scientific leaning have ideas about how the universe was created but are still searching for a definitive answer. It's an answer they've been searching for since the dawn of time and will probably be searching for until the end of time.

Ever since a shaman came up with a story about how the Sun God vomited the world into existence, the religious have stuck with that doggedly.
 
how is that link not even close? explain how a piece of bread can start gushing human blood and light itself on fire
and what about all of the healing miracles at places like Lourdes? Explain that!

Just because something happens, and it doesn't have a logical explanation doesn't mean God did it. I think that 'miraculous' healings, are explainable. Maybe not with our knowledge of science, but in time, maybe...

And bread that goes on fire, gushing of human blood? No offense, but do you think people in movies actually shoot the other actors, and cause them to bleed? :D Tomato ketchup man! :D And to burn stuff isn't hard... Enough flammable substances around...
 
how is that link not even close?
It doesn't constitute proof of anything, much less a deity.
explain how a piece of bread can start gushing human blood and light itself on fire
and what about all of the healing miracles at places like Lourdes? Explain that!
In order:

Hallucination/lies, sensationalisation
Hallucination/lies, sensationalisation
Wishful thinking, optimism, lies, sensationalisation

It is also not the job of science to provide an immediate explanation to anything. It's the job of science to eventually provide a the right explanation to anything real. When science cannot explain something right now it is not an example of something that science cannot explain and there's no reason to rush to other, non-scientific explanations. "I don't know" is a perfectly valid explanation and the root of all acquired knowledge.

The right answer when we reach it is more important than any answer right now.
 
Whether we can or we can't, the point is that we do what we can to find out. As has been discussed ad nauseum in this thread, the answer "we don't yet know" is not (and should not be) interchangeable with "it must be God, then".

We can't be sure we don't know for sure unless we look. Suggesting "we'll never know" isn't an attitude that advances civilisation.

Does the answer to "how everything came into existence in the very beginning" advance our civilisation further? Is it really important?

Especially when the whole concept of "time" "before the Big Bang" is absurd in the (mainstream version(s) of) the Big Bang theory. According to that, there was no time before the Big Bang like there was no space either.

Now, science should concentrate on things that are close to being proven either true or false like the Supersymmetry theories and recently discovered things like Higgs' boson - whether is it like believed, slightly different or something that has just been thrown as pretty far-fetched hypotheses like a new group of bosons. One step at a time, because leaving open holes may result in years of research completely in vain because of an oversight in proving the facts, if the hypotheses turn out to be false.

There are a lot of things that need be researched on before we can even imagine starting to solve how everything came into existence. If it even is important.


look at the link I posted yesterday. Is that proof that God is real?

If you believe in God, you don't have to prove it like scientific facts are proven. I think there are some things that can never be answered without faith or belief of some sort, yeah, it's unscientific, but can science possibly ever reach the point it can take a stance on God's existence (even if we disregard that God as in Christianity is unfalsifiable)?

Meanwhile, have belief in one direction or the other, or stay questioning both, it's up to you.


The right answer when we reach it is more important than any answer right now.

Do you know is there a "right" answer? I wouldn't be so sure. You seem to imply that you believe there is: "when we reach it", don't you?
 
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And bread that goes on fire, gushing of human blood? No offense, but do you think people in movies actually shoot the other actors, and cause them to bleed? :D Tomato ketchup man! :D And to burn stuff isn't hard... Enough flammable substances around...

the blood was proven to be real human blood and the bread was in a tabernacle (usually made out of metal) when it was found to be on fire
 
This whole bread thing reminded me of this:

524577_414184571989367_1140347299_n.jpg


Sorry for the funny. :D (will take down if mods don't like it)
 
Does the answer to "how everything came into existence in the very beginning" advance our civilisation further? Is it really important?

You're thinking too literally. It's the principle that's important. Do we, as a species, have the ability to discover such things? Yes, we do - we've made monumental advances already in that sphere of knowledge, and to simply reach a point where we say "right, that's about enough, I think" is completely counter-intuitive for us as a species.

Now, science should concentrate on things that are close to being proven either true or false like the Supersymmetry theories and recently discovered things like Higgs' boson

You mean, the Higgs boson which helps us understand the origins of the universe shortly after the big bang?...

Why should science concentrate on one thing, rather than something else? Why can't it look at everything with a critical eye, furthering our holistic knowledge rather than simply specifics?

There are a lot of things that need be researched on before we can even imagine starting to solve how everything came into existence. If it even is important.

It may not seem important to you, but that doesn't mean it isn't important. Who gets to decide what is important and what isn't?

Should we put more effort into curing lung cancer because it's more important than curing brain cancer? Or AIDS? Or malaria?
 
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