Do you believe in God?

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Do you believe in god?

  • Of course, without him nothing would exist!

    Votes: 616 30.5%
  • Maybe.

    Votes: 368 18.2%
  • No way!

    Votes: 1,035 51.3%

  • Total voters
    2,018
If it manifests we can 'measure' something about it. What's godlike about it then?

If we can't comprehend it, how can we begin to measure it?

The only reason why we wouldn't think something was godlike is because we know, and i'm sure even many religious people know it deep down, that man created gods.

We are the dominant creatures on our little rock, probably the most intelligent of the creatures - intelligence being another human creation devised to favour humans. But it's not a 'them and us' situation, there is a sliding scale of intelligence and we are closer to apes than apes are to say, a snail. Yet we are the only creatures on the planet that show a following or devotion to a higher power. So this surely proves the concept of gods to be a human construct?
 
@Imari
I disagree that there would be a race we consider godlike. It highly depends on the defenition of godlike you'd use, but if we go for the defenition you seem to use here, creatures with knowledge we can't (yet) comprehend, then I don't see how the meaning godlike still means something.

So what would be a useful meaning of "godlike" for you? I simply took it at face value, a creature or race that has at least one aspect similar to what we commonly describe as gods. If you want to be more specific, then by all means.

If it manifests we can 'measure' something about it. What's godlike about it then?

We can't really comprehend qauntum mechanics but we understand some of the outcomes of it's mechanics. Yet we don't say it's godlike.

I guess the other part of the question is would anything be considered "godlike" to you? It seems possibly not, with what you're saying above.
 
If we can't comprehend it, how can we begin to measure it?

The only reason why we wouldn't think something was godlike is because we know, and i'm sure even many religious people know it deep down, that man created gods.

We are the dominant creatures on our little rock, probably the most intelligent of the creatures - intelligence being another human creation devised to favour humans. But it's not a 'them and us' situation, there is a sliding scale of intelligence and we are closer to apes than apes are to say, a snail. Yet we are the only creatures on the planet that show a following or devotion to a higher power. So this surely proves the concept of gods to be a human construct?

If we can't measure anything it doesn't manifest in our world regardless wheather we comprehend it or not.
We don't have to comprehend something to measure it, we measure tying to better comprehend them now don't we?


So what would be a useful meaning of "godlike" for you? I simply took it at face value, a creature or race that has at least one aspect similar to what we commonly describe as gods. If you want to be more specific, then by all means.



I guess the other part of the question is would anything be considered "godlike" to you? It seems possibly not, with what you're saying above.

What is a godlike creature, a creature that created a world and the living things in it.

No nothing but religious gods fall into this category as far as I know of. If something extraordinary is godlike it imo kind of erodes the meaning of god and we could start accepting that god exists as a social construct wityin us and if enough people cater to this feeling, god essentially becomes real. And I do not accept that god can be real because enough people act this way as that would mean every social construct or believe/idea can be considered real and a god.

I can see how people would call those creatures godlike but I wouldn't I'd just find us ignorant and conclude we've got a lot to learn from this 'race'.
 
If we can't measure anything it doesn't manifest in our world regardless wheather we comprehend it or not.
We don't have to comprehend something to measure it, we measure tying to better comprehend them now don't we?

If it manifests itself as a voice simultaneously in every humans head, how do we measure that? And is that not the way many Christians have justified the existence of God?
 
If it manifests itself as a voice simultaneously in every humans head, how do we measure that? And is that not the way many Christians have justified the existence of God?

We're currently unraveling how the brain works why wouldn't we be able to measure brain activity in some way or form and draw conclusions.

And yes the christians have used that but there must be ways within neuroscience to detect if it's an illusion or not so it would still be measurable.

But what you basicly want to get at is something that can't be disproven. The thing is if it can't be disproven it has no explanatory use. So people can claim all they want it's useless.
 
We're currently unraveling how the brain works why wouldn't we be able to measure brain activity in some way or form and draw conclusions.

And yes the christians have used that but there must be ways within neuroscience to detect if it's an illusion or not so it would still be measurable.

But what you basicly want to get at is something that can't be disproven. The thing is if it can't be disproven it has no explanatory use. So people can claim all they want it's useless.
What of something as fleeting as, say, telepathic communication with all Earthbound entities capable of cognitive processing? Brain activity in response to external stimuli can indeed be monitored, but can it be done on a post hoc basis? It seems to me all that would tell us is the recipient of testing truly believes it received such communication, and not likely the source.
 
What of something as fleeting as, say, telepathic communication with all Earthbound entities capable of cognitive processing? Brain activity in response to external stimuli can indeed be monitored, but can it be done on a post hoc basis? It seems to me all that would tell us is the recipient of testing truly believes it received such communication, and not likely the source.


I get I'm the radical over here but we would be ignorant as how they do it. And yes measurement could become hard I'm no neuroscientist though. :P
 
I get I'm the radical over here but we would be ignorant as how they do it. And yes measurement could become hard I'm no neuroscientist though. :P
Then an inability to measure, to understand, may well cause a large number of people, probably the majority, to impose a supernatural explanation.
 
What is a godlike creature, a creature that created a world and the living things in it.

No nothing but religious gods fall into this category as far as I know of. If something extraordinary is godlike it imo kind of erodes the meaning of god and we could start accepting that god exists as a social construct wityin us and if enough people cater to this feeling, god essentially becomes real. And I do not accept that god can be real because enough people act this way as that would mean every social construct or believe/idea can be considered real and a god.

I can see how people would call those creatures godlike but I wouldn't I'd just find us ignorant and conclude we've got a lot to learn from this 'race'.

Interesting. You're essentially nailing the term godlike to the Abrahamic idea of a creator. I think you're betraying your cultural bias towards the idea of God with a capital G, rather than the more general god.

There are many religions and gods that did not create the universe or humanity. Take most of the Greek pantheon, most of them have their own niches with at best very specific creative powers or specifically destructive ones. Or someone like the Buddha.

Defined as you do, yes, there's nothing that would fall into that category unless we happened to find that our universe had a creator. Which while unlikely, is not impossible. For example, the simulation hypothesis is a reasonable argument that it's likely that we're in a simulation, which by definition has a creator. But there is more to a god than creating a universe, and I think you're missing a good chunk of interesting beings by defining it so narrowly.

If it manifests itself as a voice simultaneously in every humans head, how do we measure that? And is that not the way many Christians have justified the existence of God?

The point is not that it is measured, the point is that it could be. The argument the a lot of religious folk use against being able to objectively know of God's existence is that he "works in mysterious ways" and that His works cannot be measured by scientific means. That's obviously bollocks, for the same reasons as Russell's Teapot. Either it has no effect and so it's irrelevant whether it exists or not, or it has an effect and that effect can be measured.

Anything that a human brain perceives can be "measured" at least in a general sense; the human brain is an organ of perception. It's actually pretty common in science to use perception and judgement as a measurement, and that's fine if you're sensible about it. Obviously you'd rather have something entirely objective like a machine that gives you data to eleventy three decimal places, but that's not always possible.

If you can experience it, then it can be further investigated. And that includes a voice in everyone's head simultaneously. That would actually be a relatively easy one, as the huge number of witnesses mean that you have a lot of corroborating data points to say that it wasn't, say, hallucinogenic drugs or a brain injury. If it's one person who has voices in their head, that's a lot more difficult to rule out.
 
A godlike creature? I think that ones easy to define. Any creature with superhuman abilities. God like. Flying without a means of propulsion, shooting lasers out of their eyes. Pretty much anything that breaks laws of physics.
A god on the otherhand, that would be different. I mean, first i think we need the three omni's. No creator as it must have just always existed, immortal, phantasmal, able to create energy, etc.
 
A god on the otherhand, that would be different. I mean, first i think we need the three omni's. No creator as it must have just always existed, immortal, phantasmal, able to create energy, etc.

So the Greek, Hindu, and Shinto gods aren't gods? Hm. I think you're getting overly attached to the Abrahamic ideal of God as well.
 
Nah, i mean, maybe? I'll be honest. I dont know the bible well enough to know for sure. These are just my idea's, mostly inspired by the butt load of fantasy novels I've read. Which in turn are likely to have pulled inspiration from real life religions. I think it can be broken down more, but then we would be bringing demigods and whatnot into the conversation, and we are talking about god and godlike if im not mistaken. Godlike and god i dont think are the same. Hence the "like." A god i think would be something that is basically a timeless entity, it floats in time, it knows all because it exists in all and sees all, blah blah. It was not created because it didnt have a beginning. It has the power to create from nothing, thus it does not adhere to physics and can create energy.
Idk if you have read any Brandon Sanderson books, but to me, godlike is like an Epic from the Reckoners series he wrote. Powers that dont follow the rules of nature, unimaginable powers. But, as hard as it may be, ultimately can be killed. Ultimately is a substantial entity and still constrained by the most part to the same forces everyone wise is, super powers excluded.
God(s) wouldn't have the same constraints, because they are beyond physical. Astral if you will. Not bound by any laws of nature, nor time, nor death.
 
Nobody know what caused the big bang, so maybe there is realy someone or something that just had fun while playing with elements :)
God in relation to religions, no. Religions are just for weak idiots.
 
Nobody know what caused the big bang, so maybe there is realy someone or something that just had fun while playing with elements :)
God in relation to religions, no. Religions are just for weak idiots.
Not weak idiots. Not by a long shot. Some of the most intellegent people, past and current have been religious. I can appreciate why people would be drawn to religion. This world can be chaotic. I think religion bring some order and stability to the chaos for certain people. It was also pretty solid way to get (not create, simply to pass around) populations on the same moral page. Of course, it was also used to the detriment of some societies, and certainly was used as a form of control, but I am not of the mind that only the weak follow religions.
As for the big bang, i believe it as a whole is still a debatable theory is it not? I know it is well accepted, but many astronomers and their ilk question it as well. Im nothing more than a back yard star gazer, and astrophysics is beyond my skill set, but i to have some doubts. That said, i do believe one of the top theories as to the cause of the BB is that its cyclic. The bag happens. The resulting explosions throws all matter out into the reaches of space, the heat and pressure creating fusion events which birth the elements and a universe is created, over time all things are drawn back to a central location by gravity, and the process repeats.
That lends too a fairly humbling thought. As young (or old i suppose) we may feel. The earth we walk on, the air we breath, the material that makes us up. All of it is at least 13 billion years old. If the big bang is a cycle, infinitely old. Pondering the possibilities of space, fascinating.
 
As for the big bang, i believe it as a whole is still a debatable theory is it not?

Not particularly, it would take some pretty major observations to completely dislodge it. It's a bit like evolution, there are tweaks here and there as people refine areas of research, but the general theory is almost certainly pretty accurate barring another major revolution in physics. And there's really nothing else in the field that even approaches the level of explanatory power of the Big Bang.

What tends to get people confused is that they think that the Big Bang describes more than it actually does. It doesn't describe the beginning of the universe. It describes the earliest moments of the universe where our current physical models actually function. As far as plotting causal effects from those early moments to the present, it's remarkably accurate. But it's not a description of how a universe comes to be and it doesn't pretend to be. That's something constructed by Young Earth propaganda to make a strawman that's easy to defeat.

Ask any astrophysicist how the universe began and they'll tell you that we don't know. Or they're an idiot, that's always a possibility when dealing with humans.

That said, i do believe one of the top theories as to the cause of the BB is that its cyclic. The bag happens. The resulting explosions throws all matter out into the reaches of space, the heat and pressure creating fusion events which birth the elements and a universe is created, over time all things are drawn back to a central location by gravity, and the process repeats.

That's a hypothesis, and it's sort of countered by the current observed expansion of the universe. An expansion which happens to be accelerating, so at the moment there's no conceivable way in which the universe could fall back into a central location. If that were to be on the cards, the expansion of the universe would have to be decelerating.

Either it was cyclical in the past (which could be difficult to establish through what is probably a singularity) but this time is not (why would it be different this time?) which raises significant problems. Or this time is well representative of whatever happens when universes happen, and it's almost certainly not cyclical. Occam's razor points to the latter until we have further information to suggest otherwise. Heat death or bust.
 
Either it was cyclical in the past (which could be difficult to establish through what is probably a singularity) but this time is not (why would it be different this time?) which raises significant problems. Or this time is well representative of whatever happens when universes happen, and it's almost certainly not cyclical. Occam's razor points to the latter until we have further information to suggest otherwise. Heat death or bust.

IMO, this time - our universe - is highly idiosyncratic, non-random, and so too easy for proponents of intelligent design to claim we are special. So at this point, it may be well to consider the multiverse hypothesis, removing this problem.


Proponents and critics disagree about how to apply Occam's razor. Critics argue that to postulate an almost infinite number of unobservable universes, just to explain our own universe, is contrary to Occam's razor.[73] However, proponents argue that in terms of Kolmogorov complexity the proposed multiverse is simpler than a single idiosyncratic universe.[61]

For example, multiverse proponent Max Tegmark argues:

[A]n entire ensemble is often much simpler than one of its members. This principle can be stated more formally using the notion of algorithmic informationcontent. The algorithmic information content in a number is, roughly speaking, the length of the shortest computer program that will produce that number as output. For example, consider the set of all integers. Which is simpler, the whole set or just one number? Naively, you might think that a single number is simpler, but the entire set can be generated by quite a trivial computer program, whereas a single number can be hugely long. Therefore, the whole set is actually simpler... (Similarly), the higher-level multiverses are simpler. Going from our universe to the Level I multiverse eliminates the need to specify initial conditions, upgrading to Level II eliminates the need to specify physical constants, and the Level IV multiverse eliminates the need to specify anything at all.... A common feature of all four multiverse levels is that the simplest and arguably most elegant theory involves parallel universes by default. To deny the existence of those universes, one needs to complicate the theory by adding experimentally unsupported processes and ad hoc postulates: finite space, wave function collapse and ontological asymmetry. Our judgment therefore comes down to which we find more wasteful and inelegant: many worlds or many words. Perhaps we will gradually get used to the weird ways of our cosmos and find its strangeness to be part of its charm.[61][74]

— Max Tegmark
 
IMO, this time - our universe - is highly idiosyncratic, non-random...

Idiosyncratic as compared to what? You can't say that something is unusual if you only have one example of the thing. As far as non-random, for certain types of observations, certainly. Is that normal or abnormal? Again, hard to say with only one example of a universe.

I think people in general don't have a great intuitive grasp of statistics, and they tend to get profoundly misused when related to the universe and it's existence. People tend to both have a poor appreciation of large numbers and how randomness actually works, as well as missing that statistical inferences cannot be drawn from a single data point.

...and so too easy for proponents of intelligent design to claim we are special. So at this point, it may be well to consider the multiverse hypothesis, removing this problem.

The problem with an unobservable multiverse is that it's unfalsifiable and really adds no explanatory power. At this point it's basically a cheat to avoid having to consider significant oddities in observations. It's a cute idea, but there's really no point to it. Maybe we are special. At the very least we generally accept the anthropic principle, which means that we're at least a little bit special.

I don't like the idea of adding a hypothesis simply to shut up people who are difficult to argue with. That's not scientific. Proponents of intelligent design can have their arguments defeated without needing to resort to the multiverse. They could ultimately be correct that the universe was created by an intelligent being, but the observations are massively not on the side of that hypothesis to date.
 
Previously in the Islam thread...
Well it's all subject to interpretation. Indeed, the Catholics I know who have noted their process of belief indicate the creation of life capable of evolving.

Perhaps it comes down to a difference between "creationism" and "Creationism"; "God created life" versus "God created life as we know it." The former I can actually wrap my head around as a "logical" (not the appropriate word but the best I can come up with right now) conclusion in the absence of data and/or a means to interpret it, but the latter strikes me as wilful ignorance.

Anyway, I'm not opposed to continuing this discussion, in fact I appreciate alternate takes, but this probably isn't the appropriate thread to continue. Feel free to tag or quote me in a more general discussion thread.
Being heretics, its easy for us to say it's subjective. Dinks like Ken Ham however, they definitely seem to hold at least portions of the bible as being objective. I mean, i imagine that any that are part of one ism or another must hold some portion of their given scriptures as being objective, it just seems creationists take it a few steps further, which i posit as being the main, and a rather large, difference between christians/catholics and creationists.
 
Being heretics, its easy for us to say it's subjective. Dinks like Ken Ham however, they definitely seem to hold at least portions of the bible as being objective. I mean, i imagine that any that are part of one ism or another must hold some portion of their given scriptures as being objective, it just seems creationists take it a few steps further, which i posit as being the main, and a rather large, difference between christians/catholics and creationists.
It's a slippery slope, and I think it boils down to a willingness or unwillingness to accept other perspectives.

Me? The big bang isn't enough. While I know little about it, or not as much as I'd like, anyway, it sure seems like a reasonable explanation of how things got started. But there are lots of steps between that event and East of Eden--that is to say going from quote-unquote nothing to an organism capable of creating, processing and interpreting great works of literature...among other things, of course. I don't suggest that anything in particular played a part in that process, but it's ambiguous enough to make me unwilling to accept without further explanation that I think is logical. What does that make me?

As for your Ken Hams...is it that they really and truly believe the words that come out of their mouths? Or did they perhaps discover they can make piles and piles of money pandering to people so willing to throw it away?

And lastly, I appreciate your willingness to abide by my request.

Edit: Though it may well have been for naught, as the debate continues "over there."

:lol:
 
Me? The big bang isn't enough. While I know little about it, or not as much as I'd like, anyway, it sure seems like a reasonable explanation of how things got started.

It's funny, because the one thing that the Big Bang theory doesn't describe is how the universe started. It's a description of how we think events unfolded from a point shortly after what was probably the beginning of the universe, although we can't currently know exactly where the "beginning" (if there was one) occurred because our current physical models don't work in the conditions that existed at the time.

It's a bit like evolution in that way. It describes how matters progressed to the state that we're in today, but it doesn't attempt to explain how the universe or life came about in the first place. It's simply assumed that there was a universe or life in a certain state to begin with.
 
I really have enjoyed the series of posts that kicked off with this exchange.

Do I believe there's something higher than us or like a god? [censored] That [censored].

Why not? If you shift perspectives we're pretty godlike to smaller creatures. You could even argue that modern humans are pretty godlike to prehistoric humans, sufficiently advanced technology being indistinguishable from magic and all.

It seems totally plausible to me that there could be a more developed race out there that has abilities that we would commonly label as godlike.

The idea and the cautious wording of "something higher than us" appeals to the range of possibilities that needn't broach a totally omniscient creator God. In polls, I think a lot more people would respond positively to this idea than to the big bore dogmatism of mainstream religion working with ancient texts riddled with errors of translation, consistency and basic facts.


The problem with an unobservable multiverse is that it's unfalsifiable and really adds no explanatory power. At this point it's basically a cheat to avoid having to consider significant oddities in observations. It's a cute idea, but there's really no point to it. Maybe we are special. At the very least we generally accept the anthropic principle, which means that we're at least a little bit special.

There's several interesting remarks in this paragraph. Much appreciated.
Perhaps a nearby extra-dimensional parallel universe could be hypothetically considered to explain significant oddities observed but unexplained in our own material reality, even this anthropic principle that you mentioned.


I don't like the idea of adding a hypothesis simply to shut up people who are difficult to argue with. That's not scientific. Proponents of intelligent design can have their arguments defeated without needing to resort to the multiverse. They could ultimately be correct that the universe was created by an intelligent being, but the observations are massively not on the side of that hypothesis to date.

Another great gem or two. Without even attempting to address this issue of the creation of the universe, I ask if the "something higher than us" could have to do, not with an intelligent being per se, but simply with a more developed intelligence, consciousness, matrix or unification of physics.
 
Tourings got the right of it. Parents carry the pictures of their children, rarely does a child carry a pic of their parents
 
I believe Jesus shows us God.
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