Do you believe in God?

[Famine]

So far, omniscience is not part of the Five Observables.

Yet it's one of God's three major powers - omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence. You say:

Fact: There is on Earth a higher intelligence with God-like powers.

But then you immediately segue from God's supposed power set to random and unrelated capabilities... of UFOs. These capabilities sound almost exactly like Iron Man, so perhaps "Iron Man-like powers" would be a better phrase.

That of course does not address either of the other two incredibly lofty and unverifiable claims in that one-line gem - the "higher intelligence", or the "fact".

But the links are already published in this forum in another thread.

Yeah, the UFO thread. The one you said you have no intention of turning this thread into, despite dropping this suspiciously UFO-shaped chocolate log right into this thread.

They also do not support your conclusion, nor statement of fact, in either thread.

 

[Dotini]

Retracted, denied, apologized for and deleted for the benefit of the forum.

 

[Famine]

You are now making unsubstantiated claims of God's powers, not me.

Not really. You capitalised the G, which means the Christian deity which has those powers. It's in the textbook.

You seem to be denial or taboo of the facts reported by the New York Times and the DoD and other sources.

Not really. They don't establish a higher intelligence on Earth, they don't establish that it has abilities appropriate to the Abrahamic God, and they don't establish that it is a fact.

They establish that sometimes people see things in the sky that they cannot explain.

Say what you want.

I always do.

 

[HenrySwanson]

@Dotini, to use the title of the thread, do you believe in (a) God?

 

[Dotini]

@Dotini, to use the title of the thread, do you believe in (a) God?

Thank you for your thoughtful question.

No, I emphatically do not believe in the Abrahamic or any other traditional god with a long beard, commandments, wrath and fury and all that hoary nonsense.

However, I do believe in (a) higher power or intelligence, in essence a universal consciousness, that created matter and the universe we know. IMHO, the purpose of creation is for the universal consciousness to experience physical reality and all the thoughts and emotions attendant to physical beings and their evolution. I believe human life has purpose and meaning. The essence of that is to have experiences. I am not a member of any church or organized belief group and never have been. But I believe my ideas are grounded in many cultural and religious traditions such as hylozoism, pandeism, panpsychism, esoteric forms of traditional religions, and the like, as well as by what we know of science. And by personal experience.

There's more to it than just this, but there you go for starters.

 

[TheGeologist]

"Cite your sources"

*Redacted*

Lol

 

[Dotini]

"Cite your sources"

*Redacted*

Lol

You asked me to cite my sources. I cited:
The New York Times, multiple editions since 2017
US Navy Office of Naval intelligence, US Navy official and unofficial reports of officers and sailors
DoD officially released statements and videos
US Senate Select Committee on Intelligence and pending legislation requiring investigation and disclosure to the public
Scientific American publication by scientists
CNN
etc.
etc.

The only reason I edited my replies was due to the pressure I felt from a human being infinitely more powerful than I and all my combined sources in this forum - a moderator.
LOL, indeed.

In short, you do not need to pile on mockery once I have declared defeat and retired from an unequal contest.

The fearfulness of this forum to confront science and mainstream media contradictions of denial and taboo is nothing short of...cosmic.

 

[Famine]

You asked me to cite my sources. I cited:
The New York Times, multiple editions since 2017
US Navy Office of Naval intelligence, US Navy official and unofficial reports of officers and sailors
DoD officially released statements and videos
US Senate Select Committee on Intelligence and pending legislation requiring investigation and disclosure to the public
Scientific American publication by scientists
CNN
etc.
etc.

Simply naming publications is not citing sources.

The only reason I edited my replies was due to the pressure I felt from a human being infinitely more powerful than I and all my combined sources in this forum - a moderator.

An administrator - and it was a truly bizarre act; your posts are all quoted in mine. Also I can restore them in an instant, but it's simply more telling to leave them as they are.

You claimed it was a fact that a higher intelligence with God-like powers exists on Earth. Your evidence of this is to say that some publications have apparently, somewhere in their history, maybe suggested that some people have claimed to have seen things with Iron Man-like powers...

The fearfulness of this forum to confront science and mainstream media contradictions of denial and taboo is nothing short of...cosmic.

Interesting comment from the site's number one peddler of woo.

Show us the evidence that a higher intelligence with God-like powers exists on Earth that allows you to claim it as fact.

 

[Dotini]

Show us the evidence that a higher intelligence with God-like powers exists on Earth that allows you to claim it as fact.

I'd sincerely like to comply with this command. But, if you would please, explain to me what you would accept as evidence of my claim? Would physical evidence in the way of materials or artifacts not known to be manufactured on Earth which were recovered from a vehicle or object of unknown origin be sufficient in your mind to qualify? What else would you require to change your mind?

 

[Famine]

I'd sincerely like to comply with this command.

But, if you would please, explain to me what you would accept as evidence of my claim?

Evidence. Evidence would be evidence.

Claiming a publication at some point in its history has said that someone once saw something they couldn't explain moving about like an Iron Man suit is not a citation, and it's not evidence of something with a higher level of intelligence than humanity existing on Earth with the capabilities of the Abrahamic - capital G - God.

Would physical evidence in the way of materials or artifacts not known to be manufactured on Earth which were recovered from a vehicle or object of unknown origin be sufficient in your mind to qualify?

That would qualify as a higher intelligence, but not God-like. As far as I'm aware, there is no record of God using a vehicle of any kind - and even Jesus didn't publicly comment on his Honda (John 12:49).

What else would you require to change your mind?

Change my mind from what to what?

 

[Dotini]

Change my mind from what to what?

To change your mind from Iron Man and goose gnarg to unexplained phenomena demanding scientific study. That and nothing more.

 

[Famine]

To change your mind from Iron Man and goose gnarg to unexplained phenomena demanding scientific study. That and nothing more.

I know that there are unexplained phenomena demanding scientific study, as that's what science is and does.

What you have presented is a claim to know the results of those studies, which is a higher intelligence with God-like powers existing on Earth - though your evidence of this is a nebulous hand-wave that some publications at some point in their history have said people have claimed to have observed something that moves like Iron Man and they don't know what it is.

Your "evidence" does not match your claim on all three of its major points, but clearly the evidence you have but have not shared meets your own personal bar for what you consider to be fact.

However that bar seems to be pretty low, and does not speak for a willingness to accept current explanations (we don't know what they are) nor to allow the scientific method to go about its business. And once again it's an attempt to draw a line from UFOs to actual non-human (and non-terrestrial) intelligence, once again in a thread not related to it.

Show us the evidence that a higher intelligence with God-like powers exists on Earth that allows you to claim it as fact.

 

[Dotini]

I know that there are unexplained phenomena demanding scientific study.

Show us the evidence that a higher intelligence with God-like powers exists on Earth that allows you to claim it as fact.

I'm gad to see your minor concessions.


Yet you persist in your demands to show you evidence that (1) a higher intelligence with God-like powers exists on Earth and (2) that allows me to claim it as a fact.

Elsewhere, I have posted The Five Observables, which are facts according to official sources. These same government sources, speaking unofficially, say the phenomena are under intelligent control.

Elsewhere, I have posted reporting by the New York Times that states the phenomenon is no longer a matter of belief, but is now a search for (additional) scientific facts.

Do We Believe in U.F.O.s? That’s the Wrong Question
Reporting on the Pentagon program that’s investigating unidentified flying objects is not about belief. It’s about a vigilant search for facts.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/28/insider/UFO-reporting.html

I am going to assume you still do not concede my evidence allows me to claim the phenomena exhibits higher intelligence and "God-like" powers.

So I will retract that claim and recast it as humble opinion. But I will continue to work on complying with your command to post additional evidence as they become available. Thank you for your attention, slightly more reasonable line of argument, and encouragement to continue posting here on this topic.

 

[Famine]

I'm gad to see your minor concessions.

I have made none.

Yet you persist in your demands to show you evidence that (1) a higher intelligence with God-like powers exists on Earth and (2) that allows me to claim it as a fact.

That was your claim, and you are yet to provide evidence for it.

Elsewhere, I have posted The Five Observables, which are facts according to official sources.

Which you have not cited. "The Five Observables" you keep referring to are powers no more miraculous than an Iron Man suit (with additional stealth capabilities) and are wholly unrelated to the powers of the God of Abraham of your claim. They seem to be related to UFOs rather than deities, and UFOs (and UAPs) are things we cannot identify or explain yet - not de facto higher intelligences visiting the planet.

Elsewhere, I have posted reporting by the New York Times that states the phenomenon is no longer a matter of belief, but is now a search for (additional) scientific facts.

So what?

I am going to assume you still do not concede my evidence allows me to claim the phenomena exhibits higher intelligence and "God-like" powers.

It is unimaginably far from allowing you to claim either as fact. The facts of UFOs are that we have observed things that we cannot yet explain. You are entirely sidestepping the information gathering process, entering an explanation and stating it is the truth.

The only connection to God here is that monotheists use the exact same thought process: we don't know, therefore God.

Thank you for your attention and slightly more reasonable line of argument.

My "line of argument" has not changed.

 

[Dotini]

I make no claim as to the origin of the phenomena. My opinion is that it is not God, not ET and not entirely human. I believe the phenomena has been on Earth longer than humanity, and Earth is more their planet than ours. It could be a breakaway civlilzation like Atlantis, for all we know.

 

[TheGeologist]

You asked me to cite my sources. I cited:
The New York Times, multiple editions since 2017
US Navy Office of Naval intelligence, US Navy official and unofficial reports of officers and sailors
DoD officially released statements and videos
US Senate Select Committee on Intelligence and pending legislation requiring investigation and disclosure to the public
Scientific American publication by scientists
CNN
etc.
etc.

The only reason I edited my replies was due to the pressure I felt from a human being infinitely more powerful than I and all my combined sources in this forum - a moderator.
LOL, indeed.

In short, you do not need to pile on mockery once I have declared defeat and retired from an unequal contest.

The fearfulness of this forum to confront science and mainstream media contradictions of denial and taboo is nothing short of...cosmic.

Your citations (which were deleted by the time I checked the forum) are meaningless.

When you cite your sources, you need the full citation. The title of the article, the authors name, the publication and the pages it is on.

Just saying "New York Times" doesn't mean anything. They publish a new paper with articles every day...

Furthermore, NYT, CNN, and DoD statements are not a scientific, peer reviewed published journal.

You can't just say "Fact: There is on Earth a higher intelligence with God-like powers." Without proof.

You said it's a fact. Show me where someone from a published, peer reviewed, scientific journal said that. Just because you allegedly saw it on CNN doesn't mean anything.

This is literally you...

 

[Dotini]

Your citations (which were deleted by the time I checked the forum) are meaningless.

When you cite your sources, you need the full citation. The title of the article, the authors name, the publication and the pages it is on.

Just saying "New York Times" doesn't mean anything. They publish a new paper with articles every day...

Furthermore, NYT, CNN, and DoD statements are not a scientific, peer reviewed published journal.

You can't just say "Fact: There is on Earth a higher intelligence with God-like powers." Without proof.

You said it's a fact. Show me where someone from a published, peer reviewed, scientific journal said that. Just because you allegedly saw it on CNN doesn't mean anything.

Dotini: "Clowns invaded the moon, fact! I saw it from a reputable source, everyone must believe me."

Forum: "Let's see the source you're referring to"

Dotini:

Thank you for your question.

The sources I referred to here in passing are quoted in full and referenced in full in the UFO thread.
But you are right, these are not peer-reviewed science papers.
That is precisely the reason why the scientists writing at Scientific American have called for a concerted global scientific attack on the mystery. Up until now, progress in understanding this problem has been stalled due to stigmatization, denial, taboo, government classification, and the sheer difficulty of the mystery. It is perhaps the greatest of all questions humanity now has to study. Thanks to the courage of the New York Times, Senator Reid and the folks working within the DoD on this problem, the subject now is no longer one of belief, but of scientific investigation of facts. In the weeks, months and year ahead, we are likely to make more progress on this mystery than has been made in last 70 + years since the world became widely aware of it. During WWII, aviators on both sides noticed things buzzing around their planes they called "Foo-fighters". Around atomic research bases in the US working on nuclear energy and the atomic bomb, they were seen there too.

It really is a wonderful mystery to become involved in. Please continue to monitor the subject in the national press and on the forum. Intelligent questions are always welcome.

EDIT:
Here is the abstract of a scholarly article published by NASA on the origins of the UFO mystery in antiquity. Historical and scientific findings indicate the phenomena has not changed much in 2000 years.
https://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/abs/st02710y.html

https://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/docs/2007/2007_Stothers_st02710y.pdf

 

[TenEightyOne]

Here is the abstract of a scholarly article published by NASA on the origins of the UFO mystery in antiquity. Historical and scientific findings indicate the phenomena has not changed much in 2000 years.
https://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/abs/st02710y.html

https://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/docs/2007/2007_Stothers_st02710y.pdf

Published in The Classical Journal, just available on NASA's site as an article of interest. There isn't any real science in the findings other than a consideration of natural phenomena as a potential cause for some of these sightings. It's an interesting read in itself but it hardly blows the lid off anything.

I was going to move this reply back to the UFO thread but realised my answer goes straight to the core of religion too - people with no education in why natural phenomena happen often believe that an out-of-sight sentient entity must be doing those things. Sun moving? Gods. Storm? Gods angry/fighting. Good harvest? Gods are happy. Once your society has a network of explicable gods (and a supporting cast) then it usually has the lore to explain most things in a way that a) makes sense of the natural world and b) controls natural fear. To that extent the descriptions of UFOs become subjective to their time and place (as Stothers notes) and framed in the references understood by the society in which they were seen.

As the popularity of science fiction for the learned gentleman grows in the Georgian and Victorian ages we largely see a shift from the idea that strange phenomena are a function of the mythical characters of our heaven and earth and we see a rise in the popularity of writings about creatures from other planets. Mars becomes a particular favourite, helped no doubt by the easy availability of telescope equipment for the gentlemans' science parlour.

So, back to the Ancient Med... was everybody just wandering about watching the gods' playtime going on above them? What about the people who were at a level of ability in science, mathematics and thinking? Your paper says:

Greek and Roman scientific thinkers, who were never at a loss for theories, usually regarded these types of aerial phenomena as stars, clouds, atmospheric fires, light reflections or moving material bodies

Sensible, really.

 

[Dotini]

Published in The Classical Journal, just available on NASA's site as an article of interest. There isn't any real science in the findings other than a consideration of natural phenomena as a potential cause for some of these sightings. It's an interesting read in itself but it hardly blows the lid off anything.

I was going to move this reply back to the UFO thread but realised my answer goes straight to the core of religion too - people with no education in why natural phenomena happen often believe that an out-of-sight sentient entity must be doing those things. Sun moving? Gods. Storm? Gods angry/fighting. Good harvest? Gods are happy. Once your society has a network of explicable gods (and a supporting cast) then it usually has the lore to explain most things in a way that a) makes sense of the natural world and b) controls natural fear. To that extent the descriptions of UFOs become subjective to their time and place (as Stothers notes) and framed in the references understood by the society in which they were seen.

As the popularity of science fiction for the learned gentleman grows in the Georgian and Victorian ages we largely see a shift from the idea that strange phenomena are a function of the mythical characters of our heaven and earth and we see a rise in the popularity of writings about creatures from other planets. Mars becomes a particular favourite, helped no doubt by the easy availability of telescope equipment for the gentlemans' science parlour.

So, back to the Ancient Med... was everybody just wandering about watching the gods' playtime going on above them? What about the people who were at a level of ability in science, mathematics and thinking? Your paper says:



Sensible, really.

Thank you for your thoughtful, intelligent and literate post.

I wished everyone would read this article and all the others too, and we could have a respectful discussion of the unknown phenomena without prejudgement, mockery, denial and taboo prevailing like it does now. Major fact checked journalism such the the New York Times, Scientific American and institutions within the USG all agree the reality of unexplained apparently intelligently controlled phenomena involving advanced technology. Technology!! Congress is passing bipartisan legislation which would expand study and publish regular reports to the people. Yet this forum does not and perhaps cannot. Yet I am grateful to be permitted to be a lone voice here advocating for study and discussion of the phenomena. Perhaps I have just found an ally with you?

 

[Famine]

Yet I am grateful to be permitted to be a lone voice here advocating for study of the phenomena.

You have a very interesting way of distorting reality in order to paint yourself as a man apart.

There is a considerable gulf between pointing out that your claim that beings of higher order intelligence with deity-rivalling powers (and I'm being kind there) have visited and are present on Earth and the notion that unexplained phenomena are not worth studying.

Anyone with an ounce of rational thought in their head would hold the opinion that it's worth finding out what unexplained phenomena are and the opinion that rushing to state, as fact, that there's beings with a higher intelligence on Earth is foolish, premature, and literally the opposite of study.

Studying unexplained things - whether flying objects or aerial phenomena - is sensible. Saying that they mean that higher-intelligence beings with God-like powers are on Earth is not sensible. At all.

 

[Dotini]

You have a very interesting way of distorting reality in order to paint yourself as a man apart.

There is a considerable gulf between pointing out that your claim that beings of higher order intelligence with deity-rivalling powers (and I'm being kind there) have visited and are present on Earth and the notion that unexplained phenomena are not worth studying.

Anyone with an ounce of rational thought in their head would hold the opinion that it's worth finding out what unexplained phenomena are and the opinion that rushing to state, as fact, that there's beings with a higher intelligence on Earth is foolish, premature, and literally the opposite of study.

Studying unexplained things - whether flying objects or aerial phenomena - is sensible. Saying that they mean that higher-intelligence beings with God-like powers are on Earth is not sensible. At all.

There are two misleading defects with your post.
- There is no implication by me that a high technology intelligence is visiting. It may have been here all along. Read Strothers.
- I don't think I ever stated as fact that beings are responsible. My current position is the humble opinion that advanced technological intelligence is responsible.

But anyway, thank you for your post. I look forward to seeing you post thoughtful, intelligent and literate contribution towards understanding the phenomena. Citations would be a novelty for you.

 

[Famine]

There are two misleading defects with your post.

Nope - and given that you're currently claiming you're the only person on GTP who thinks unexplained phenomena are worth study, staggering unaware. Your posts are almost exclusively made of deflections.

There is no implication by me that a high technology intelligence is visiting. It may have been here all along. Read Strothers.

I didn't say they were visiting.

I never stated as fact that beings are responsible. My current position is the humble opinion that advanced technological intelligence is responsible.

That depends on the definition of a being.

 

[Dotini]

Nope - and given that you're currently claiming you're the only person on GTP who thinks unexplained phenomena are worth study, staggering unaware. Your posts are almost exclusively made of deflections.

I didn't say they were visiting.

That depends on the definition of a being.

I'm grateful for your concession that unexplained phenomena are worth studying. Particularly in the God thread. Now I want to see more thoughtful, intelligent and literate discussion with citations - from you and others. And then I'll be sure I'm not alone.

 

[Famine]

Your posts are almost exclusively made of deflections.

Et la.

I'm grateful for your concession that unexplained phenomena are worth studying.

Again, not a concession. This is the second time you've taken a consistent position and decided it's a concession towards yours. That's a strawman by any other name - misrepresenting others in order to suit your own argument.

Now I want to see more thoughtful, intelligent and literate discussion with citations - from you and others.

Firstly, who do you actually think you are? Aside from the fact you have absolutely no say in what other people post, you make, by some margin, the least thoughtful or intelligent posts on this topic, stating speculation as fact and peddling woo almost like it's instinct. Then, when challenged, you play the victim - much as you are doing right now - instead of providing even the smallest morsel of evidence for your outlandish claims.

Secondly, and with that in mind, be the change you wish to see. Continue to post rot and it'll continue to be challenged - in the vain hope you can actually hold a conversation.

Continue to troll, as you have been doing these last two days, and it won't.

 

[evldave333]

I think we as a species are slowing down our advancement with so many minds spinning in circles over the god question / being religious, it seems like wasted creativity. We only get a short time here as it is without wasting time mulling unanswerable questions, that seem to appear because we know the end is coming. The irony is you waste time worrying & pondering, when life itself is short in reality. Isn't asking about god kinda like looking the gift horse in the mouth anyway? Surely better to just get on with life and enjoy.

 

[Famine]

We only get a short time here as it is without wasting time mulling unanswerable questions

Unanswerable questions aren't worth considering. Questions we cannot yet answer are; we are only here, now, talking on the internet about it, thanks to generations of people using their short time to find out how to answer questions they once could not answer - and find out new questions beyond them.

 

[BobK]

I'm grateful for your concession that unexplained phenomena are worth studying. Particularly in the God thread.

Unless you're seriously proposing that unexplained phenomena are deity-related, seems to me it would be massively off-topic in this thread.

 

[Dotini]

Unless you're seriously proposing that unexplained phenomena are deity-related, seems to me it would be massively off-topic in this thread.

Most of us would previously have thought so. Yet now it seems somehow to be permitted. Perhaps the times are changing with new mainstream media and government revelations and discoveries?

But to be very clear, I am not proposing the unexplained phenomena are directly deity related. Elsewhere I have indicated my opinion that the source is not the deity, not ET, yet not entirely human. I don't know the source and apparently no one else does either, in or out of government, classified or not. It's a super-mystery. But we do know basically how the technology works that permit the Five Observables, as the AATIP has discovered and published.

But if you would refer to Stothers, page 89 including footnotes, you will find deity-related discussion and references. The whole study is well worth a read.

Thank you for your interest and your question.

 

[TheGeologist]

Yet I am grateful to be permitted to be a lone voice here advocating for study and discussion of the phenomena.

This is rude and completely untrue.

 

[Dotini]

This is rude and completely untrue.

If you felt offended then I apologize. It was not my intention to offend but to promote scholarly discussion. If you wish to discuss the phenomena in a studious manner, then by all means please proceed.