Do you believe in God?

[Famine]

A newborn has consciousness ... they have consciousness otherwise they'd be dead.

What are you defining consciousness as this time? Also there's a reason I said "less" and not "the same".


As for your hilarious assertion and demands of proof, brain mapping is a 140-year old process which has advanced tremendously since PET scans and, more recently, fMRI.

We can absolutely discover if someone loves someone else and how much with neuroimaging techniques like these.

I appreciate that you might not understand them, but that doesn't make them "scientific waffling".

 

[Imari]

1. A newborn has consciousness, perhaps not self-awareness to that of an adult, but they have consciousness otherwise they'd be dead.

You reckon? You should look up Terry Schiavo. It's very much not the case that if alive then conscious.

2. Show me proof.

3. Again show me proof, I have yet to see any proof. A lot of science waffle, but no actual concrete proof (because there isn't any proof, just scientific waffling).

Do you understand the concept of irony?

How about you hold your own arguments to the standards that you seem to demand of everyone else? Show some "actual concrete proof" of the soul.

 

[HenrySwanson]

Looking back at the comments made by Senna about driving beyond the realms of consciousness at the qualifying for the Monaco GP, has anyone else experienced a similar phenomena in their life. This is obviously not restricted to motorsports.

 

[Imari]

Looking back at the comments made by Senna about driving beyond the realms of consciousness at the qualifying for the Monaco GP, has anyone else experienced a similar phenomena in their life. This is obviously not restricted to motorsports.

Flow state - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)

When you're doing something really difficult but you're also extremely good and experienced at that thing, sometimes your brain just drops everything else but what you're doing. It's quite trippy, because we're so used to thinking about several things at once that it can feel like an out of body experience or some sort of divine intervention when we're suddenly 100% focused on one thing.

 

[Liquid]

I've had it playing gaelic football. Everything I did just clicked and felt like magic and I'm a full back, a defensive player. Wasn't even scoring points or doing anything 'glorious'.

 

[Ghost Lap]

What are you defining consciousness as this time?

Same sort of thing as soul, spirit, life force etc, I guess. The proverbial "ghost inside the machine".

We can absolutely discover if someone loves someone else and how much with neuroimaging techniques like these.

You can't even truly be sure that anything besides your own self or consciousness is real and existent, and yet intangibles such as love and consciousness or self can be seen and measured physically through use of neuroimaging techniques?

Have they also physically pin pointed other intangibles that we all wrestle with on a daily basis, such as morality, self-esteem, sense of responsibility, compassion for others etc. I guess I'm asking where does your faith truly reside in, is it residing in what you can be sure of, or is it residing in our very young and limited understanding of neuroscience?

I think you may be confusing the physical counterparts and manifestations of such qualities with the true origins of such qualities themselves.

Looking back at the comments made by Senna about driving beyond the realms of consciousness at the qualifying for the Monaco GP, has anyone else experienced a similar phenomena in their life. This is obviously not restricted to motorsports.

Didn't Senna mention that at one point it seemed as if he or his consciousness was literally outside of the car and just observing, almost as if a higher power or intelligence of some kind had completely taken over and was driving the car in a way that even he couldn't do so consciously, to the point where it actually scared him?

 

[Famine]

Same sort of thing as soul, spirit, life force etc, I guess. The proverbial "ghost inside the machine".

I'm guessing that what you're gunning for here is some kind of divine "spark of life" that exceeds the physical brain. Sadly, all experimentation on brains has revealed that how it works defines who you are - and we can surgically change the former to affect the latter.

Called it!

You can't even truly be sure that anything besides your own self or consciousness is real and existent

When all else fails, resort to divinity or solipsism...

yet intangibles such as love and consciousness or self can be seen and measured physically through use of neuroimaging techniques?

This is going to be an even longer conversation if I keep having to repeat everything I say.

As it turns out, since they can indeed be seen and measured, they're not quite as intangible as you insist...

I guess I'm asking where does your faith truly reside in

What faith?

our very young and limited understanding of neuroscience?

Our "understanding of neuroscience" (whatever that means) is older than our understanding of quantum mechanics.

I think you may be confusing the physical counterparts and manifestations of such qualities with the true origins of such qualities themselves.

I think you may have run out of objections to reality and are returning to mystical posturing.

 

[UKMikey]

Didn't Senna mention that at one point it seemed as if he or his consciousness was literally outside of the car and just observing, almost as if a higher power or intelligence of some kind had completely taken over and was driving the car in a way that even he couldn't do so consciously, to the point where it actually scared him?

He must have switched to chase car view.

 

[Ghost Lap]

He must have switched to chase car view.

He became the "main character" for a minute or less.

 

[HenrySwanson]

Flow state - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)

When you're doing something really difficult but you're also extremely good and experienced at that thing, sometimes your brain just drops everything else but what you're doing. It's quite trippy, because we're so used to thinking about several things at once that it can feel like an out of body experience or some sort of divine intervention when we're suddenly 100% focused on one thing.

Very illuminating

Didn't Senna mention that at one point it seemed as if he or his consciousness was literally outside of the car and just observing, almost as if a higher power or intelligence of some kind had completely taken over and was driving the car in a way that even he couldn't do so consciously, to the point where it actually scared him?

This is the part I'm interested in.

I felt a similar sensation that lasted for a period of months and at the beginning of it I seemed to "sense" things differently and it felt like an altered state of consciousness - similar to how I imagine a "good" trip is on certain hallucinogens. Everything seemed to fall into place perfectly, day in day out and I still can't explain how that manifested.

The closest thing in terms of how it felt is the film Limitless.

 

[UKMikey]

I felt a similar sensation that lasted for a period of months and at the beginning of it I seemed to "sense" things differently and it felt like an altered state of consciousness - similar to how I imagine a "good" trip is on certain hallucinogens. Everything seemed to fall into place perfectly, day in day out and I still can't explain how that manifested.

The closest thing in terms of how it felt is the film Limitless.

This is fine but I think it's the "therefore God" part that some of us are having trouble with. If it's because of a perceived lack of scientific cause then it may fall into "god of the gaps" territory.

 

[MatskiMonk]

If it's because of a perceived lack of scientific cause then it may fall into "god of the gaps" territory.

Yup, Senna was a good driver but wasn't above talking absolute guff. Add his religious beliefs into that and you very much get an attempt at God of the gaps.

 

[Imari]

The closest thing in terms of how it felt is the film Limitless.

So what were you taking? There are any number of drugs that can produce similar feelings.

 

[HenrySwanson]

So what were you taking? There are any number of drugs that can produce similar feelings.

Only high dose baclofen.

But that doesn't explain how those experiences occurred as it was more than just a change in perception.

For example, I was working a full time job while studying a degree full time and my shifts fell perfectly during that time to allow me to attend the necessary tutorials/in person events. There's no way a drug could have control over circumstances like that.

This is fine but I think it's the "therefore God" part that some of us may be having trouble with. If it's because of a perceived lack of scientific cause then it may fall into "god of the gaps" territory.

Yes, at that time I was more influenced by the Bahai faith.... but I didn't think it was an intervention by a god. Rather, it was some connection with the universe that couldn't be explained.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Rather, it was some connection with the universe that couldn't be explained.

Why did you come to the conclusion that instead of simple positive coincidence it had some cosmic significance? Why couldn't you just accept it was how it was for completely unconnected reasons?

 

[Imari]

Only high dose baclofen.

Baclofen Side Effects: Common, Severe, Long Term

Learn about the side effects of baclofen, from common to rare, for consumers and healthcare professionals.

www.drugs.com

You compared it to drug experiences twice, and the drug you were taking in high doses has this as a known side effect. This was the first result Googling "baclofen side effects". Also most prescriptions come with a pamphlet that lists known side effects and other useful information.

But it's a mystery how this could have "manifested".

For example, I was working a full time job while studying a degree full time and my shifts fell perfectly during that time to allow me to attend the necessary tutorials/in person events. There's no way a drug could have control over circumstances like that.

You know who usually has control over shift timings? Humans.

Usually if your shifts all line up with your full time study (that your employer almost certainly knows about) you'd just assume that the person making the schedule was doing you a solid. I mean, a person would be silly to start a course expecting to hold down a full time job AND full time study without at least some cooperation from their employer. It would be far too easy for them to ruin your tuition, your job or both just by accidentally giving you a rotten schedule, let alone if someone decided to be malicious.

You seem inclined to look for supernatural explanations before you've even exhausted the obvious natural ones. I know it's not as exciting, but this is where you get to choose whether you want to know the truth or whether you just want a good story.

 

[HenrySwanson]

Baclofen Side Effects: Common, Severe, Long Term

Learn about the side effects of baclofen, from common to rare, for consumers and healthcare professionals.

www.drugs.com

View attachment 1331853

You compared it to drug experiences twice, and the drug you were taking in high doses has this as a known side effect. This was the first result Googling "baclofen side effects". Also most prescriptions come with a pamphlet that lists known side effects and other useful information.

But it's a mystery how this could have "manifested".

That explains the effect it has on affect (mood), and baclofen in high doses can rarely induce mania....but that's all it explains. It doesn't account for the coincidences that were happening by the hour, day by day, for months. I can give you examples if you wish?

You know who usually has control over shift timings? Humans.

Usually if your shifts all line up with your full time study (that your employer almost certainly knows about) you'd just assume that the person making the schedule was doing you a solid. I mean, a person would be silly to start a course expecting to hold down a full time job AND full time study without at least some cooperation from their employer. It would be far too easy for them to ruin your tuition, your job or both just by accidentally giving you a rotten schedule, let alone if someone decided to be malicious.

You misunderstand.

The weekday shifts would be setup on days I didn't need to be in, which varied week by week with my nurse supervisor not having any idea how and when I would need to be at uni. Also during this period I had a long placement on ITU, and my work schedule was cleared considerably to facilitate this - all by "chance" (the supervisor didn't know since shifts are setup weeks in advance).

 

[Danoff]

That explains the effect it has on affect (mood), and baclofen in high doses can rarely induce mania....but that's all it explains. It doesn't account for the coincidences that were happening by the hour, day by day, for months. I can give you examples if you wish?

You misunderstand.

The weekday shifts would be setup on days I didn't need to be in, which varied week by week with my nurse supervisor not having any idea how and when I would need to be at uni. Also during this period I had a long placement on ITU, and my work schedule was cleared considerably to facilitate this - all by "chance" (the supervisor didn't know since shifts are setup weeks in advance).

Do you also keep track of every time things don't quite work out and use this to disprove the existence of god? Because this is what is required by this sort of analysis. You cannot just look at one side of the equation, doing so is called confirmation bias.

Every time something annoying happens, it needs to motivate you not to believe in god for you to be consistent.

 

[Imari]

That explains the effect it has on affect (mood), and baclofen in high doses can rarely induce mania....but that's all it explains. It doesn't account for the coincidences that were happening by the hour, day by day, for months. I can give you examples if you wish?

I'm not your doctor. You should have gone and seen your doctor when you first noted this serious side effect. You didn't, and so I have no particular trust in any further information you may choose to pull out now.

You weren't observing objectively with a mind to figuring out what was going on, you came into this convinced that you had experienced something supernatural and hadn't done even the bare minimum to check if anything else might have been going on. It took one obvious question and ten seconds on Google to show that at least one thing you experienced had a ready explanation.

Anything you say cannot be trusted to be the whole story. You were wholly biased in how you observed the situation, and so it cannot now be usefully used as a topic of discussion. Sorry. I'm not trying to be mean, but you're a voice on the internet. There's no point me spending time trying to figure out this stuff when from the start you clearly haven't approached it with an open mind.

 

[feral and bad]

Do you also keep track of every time things don't quite work out and use this to disprove the existence of god? Because this is what is required by this sort of analysis. You cannot just look at one side of the equation, doing so is called confirmation bias.

Every time something annoying happens, it needs to motivate you not to believe in god for you to be consistent.

I believe that I understand your point about confirmation bias. However, there are many examples in my life where my perception of events led me to believe that something annoying or bad had happened. In hindsight, sometimes hours, sometimes many years later, I can see how fortunate it was for me that these 'bad things' happened, as they were blessings in disguise. As I have been told throughout my life, by both those who believe and those who do not, sometimes you don't really want, or need, things that you think you want.

So how would one judge whether an event was indeed bad, without the perspective of time?

Yes, I am a Christian.

Thanks for your time.

 

[Exorcet]

I believe that I understand your point about confirmation bias. However, there are many examples in my life where my perception of events led me to believe that something annoying or bad had happened. In hindsight, sometimes hours, sometimes many years later, I can see how fortunate it was for me that these 'bad things' happened, as they were blessings in disguise. As I have been told throughout my life, by both those who believe and those who do not, sometimes you don't really want, or need, things that you think you want.

So how would one judge whether an event was indeed bad, without the perspective of time?

Yes, I am a Christian.

Thanks for your time.

One thing to consider is if the sequence of events that lead to an outcome is the only possible sequence of events that could lead to that outcome.

Losing a job might force you to learn how to manage money on a tight budget, but does learning how to properly manage money require losing a job? Is it required if an all powerful being with the ability to beam any and all knowledge directly into your brain exists?

 

[Danoff]

I believe that I understand your point about confirmation bias. However, there are many examples in my life where my perception of events led me to believe that something annoying or bad had happened. In hindsight, sometimes hours, sometimes many years later, I can see how fortunate it was for me that these 'bad things' happened, as they were blessings in disguise. As I have been told throughout my life, by both those who believe and those who do not, sometimes you don't really want, or need, things that you think you want.

So how would one judge whether an event was indeed bad, without the perspective of time?

Yes, I am a Christian.

Thanks for your time.

This is another common human bias, sometimes called "rosy retrospection". You can find that phrase on wikipedia. The past looks better to you than it actually was. And so your misfortunes in that past look less misfortunate over time - causing you to change your perspective on how much "luck" you have had in your life.

If you're going to take a small example, such as getting a job, as evidence of god in the moment, then you have to take a small example, such as being turned down for a job, or missing a promotion, or a layoff, as evidence that god does not exist in the moment. Doing so would be at least fair.

If you're going to try to assess your entire life, you're likely to focus on only the good things that have happened to you - those things are visible - and not the good things that didn't happen to you (invisible) or bad things (cognitively suppressed). So you need to take this rosy retrospection into account.

You'll remember your good job, and not the better one you didn't get.

 

[MatskiMonk]

As I have been told throughout my life

Programming?

Yes, I am a Christian.

... checks out.

 

[FPV MIC]

I believe that I understand your point about confirmation bias. However, there are many examples in my life where my perception of events led me to believe that something annoying or bad had happened. In hindsight, sometimes hours, sometimes many years later, I can see how fortunate it was for me that these 'bad things' happened, as they were blessings in disguise. As I have been told throughout my life, by both those who believe and those who do not, sometimes you don't really want, or need, things that you think you want.

So how would one judge whether an event was indeed bad, without the perspective of time?

Yes, I am a Christian.

Thanks for your time.

I've had some pretty horrific things happen to me in my life time (true story), some where Christians were involved in a very bad way, and no amount of time will change that perspective, therefore God?

No blessings in disguise.

If there was such a thing as 'God' he/her/or whatever the **** it is, is a right proper asshole!

Edit: And don't give me that ''it's a test'' bollocks either. Some people are just arseholes that use churches as a front for their arseholeness. There's also the plain arseholes that don't need a front as well.

 

[Ghost Lap]

Yup, Senna was a good driver but wasn't above talking absolute guff. Add his religious beliefs into that and you very much get an attempt at God of the gaps.

It's all absolute guff until you experience these things for yourself, and then quite often you're hesitant to even share such experiences with anyone for such predictable reactions.

 

[Exorcet]

It's all absolute guff until you experience these things for yourself, and then quite often you're hesitant to even share such experiences with anyone for such predictable reactions.

The negative reactions are to jumping to conclusions, not the experiences themselves.

Having unexplained experience is not that big of a deal. There are many ways they can happen and many people have probably experienced them at one point in time or another. I absolutely have. Nothing about them suggests the existence of gods though.

 

[feral and bad]

This is another common human bias, sometimes called "rosy retrospection". You can find that phrase on wikipedia. The past looks better to you than it actually was. And so your misfortunes in that past look less misfortunate over time - causing you to change your perspective on how much "luck" you have had in your life.

If you're going to take a small example, such as getting a job, as evidence of god in the moment, then you have to take a small example, such as being turned down for a job, or missing a promotion, or a layoff, as evidence that god does not exist in the moment. Doing so would be at least fair.

If you're going to try to assess your entire life, you're likely to focus on only the good things that have happened to you - those things are visible - and not the good things that didn't happen to you (invisible) or bad things (cognitively suppressed). So you need to take this rosy retrospection into account.

You'll remember your good job, and not the better one you didn't get.

Yes, I believe that I understand this.
I do not understand how this answers my original question though.
The question was:
" So how would one judge whether an event was indeed bad, without the perspective of time?"

Thanks again.

 

[HenrySwanson]

I'm not your doctor. You should have gone and seen your doctor when you first noted this serious side effect. You didn't, and so I have no particular trust in any further information you may choose to pull out now.

Actually, I did discuss the elevation in mood as I needed a prescription and gave a full disclosure since I was initially self-prescribing it.

You weren't observing objectively with a mind to figuring out what was going on, you came into this convinced that you had experienced something supernatural and hadn't done even the bare minimum to check if anything else might have been going on. It took one obvious question and ten seconds on Google to show that at least one thing you experienced had a ready explanation.

If you'll look at the OP I didn't mention the change in mood or affect since I was aware of that from the moment I started taking it high-dose.

Anything you say cannot be trusted to be the whole story. You were wholly biased in how you observed the situation, and so it cannot now be usefully used as a topic of discussion. Sorry. I'm not trying to be mean, but you're a voice on the internet. There's no point me spending time trying to figure out this stuff when from the start you clearly haven't approached it with an open mind.

But that's the thing.

Looking at that period objectively would make a lot of people question reality, and what control we truly have in it.

Understand that I'm not defaulting to god, just as I don't when I talk about my deja vu experiences (or other seemingly unexplainable events).

Do you also keep track of every time things don't quite work out and use this to disprove the existence of god? Because this is what is required by this sort of analysis. You cannot just look at one side of the equation, doing so is called confirmation bias.

Every time something annoying happens, it needs to motivate you not to believe in god for you to be consistent.

Again, I'm not sure it's a god. It could be some as-of-yet undiscovered phenomena of physics and how this universe is made up.

Basically it went from the normal ups and downs for 20 something years, to a holy-**** period of months of "I can't explain what's happening" to a traumatic experience that made me question what existence is even more than during those 5-6 months.

 

[feral and bad]

One thing to consider is if the sequence of events that lead to an outcome is the only possible sequence of events that could lead to that outcome.

Losing a job might force you to learn how to manage money on a tight budget, but does learning how to properly manage money require losing a job? Is it required if an all powerful being with the ability to beam any and all knowledge directly into your brain exists?

Well, whether or not a single event would be all that was required for a person to learn would probably be determined by a multitude of factors.

Sometimes I learn something easily, sometimes the lesson has to be repeated a number of times in order for me to catch on.
I suspect that I may not be unique.

Some people seem to only learn if the consequences for failing to learn keep increasing.

At the risk of circular logic, and certainly at the risk of my being unable to accurately describe it, I believe that some levels and or types
of learning have to be learned.

It has been my experience that human beings need to learn a lot of things, and that we generally tend to value things more if an effort
was required to acquire it.

A poor metaphor would be:
You don't give the keys to the brand new expensive SUV that you paid for, to someone who was just issued a learners permit.

Hope this helps.

 

[feral and bad]

Programming?



... checks out.

From my original post:
"As I have been told throughout my life, by both those who believe and those who do not, sometimes you don't really want, or need, things that you think you want."

If this is what you are referring to when you asked "Programming?", then it would appear that a whole lot of people unknown to each other, with different backgrounds and levels of belief are conspiring.

If you were referring to something else, could you please enlighten me?

Thanks.