Do you believe in God?

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Do you believe in god?

  • Of course, without him nothing would exist!

    Votes: 626 30.5%
  • Maybe.

    Votes: 368 17.9%
  • No way!

    Votes: 1,059 51.6%

  • Total voters
    2,052
I can't be absolutely certain this universe even exists(I think it's highly likely it does). It looks real and feels real but I could be in Matrix like simulation that's just feeding my brain with all the information. If I can't be certain of that then how could I be certain of anything.
 
Interesting question, without a time machine, no, with a time machine you could argue yes, although best we don't get into that :p

Technically if you have a time machine your perspective is that you've observed the event, so it's in your past. Even if you then place yourself further backwards in time, it's still in the past as far as your personal timeline goes so you can't really talk about it as if it's in your future.

It might be in someone else's future, but then they couldn't be certain because all they have to go on is information from you. And you're some mental who thinks he just came back from the year one million and a half, when humankind is enslaved by giraffe. :D
 
Technically if you have a time machine your perspective is that you've observed the event, so it's in your past. Even if you then place yourself further backwards in time, it's still in the past as far as your personal timeline goes so you can't really talk about it as if it's in your future.

It might be in someone else's future, but then they couldn't be certain because all they have to go on is information from you. And you're some mental who thinks he just came back from the year one million and a half, when humankind is enslaved by giraffe. :D

Actually, the event would be in my past and future, because once I've time travelled to the event and witnessed it, it's my past, but if I then go back to the present, the same event will then be in my future, so does that mean I can be certain that it will happen? :p
 
Actually, the event would be in my past and future, because once I've time travelled to the event and witnessed it, it's my past, but if I then go back to the present, the same event will then be in my future, so does that mean I can be certain that it will happen? :p

Well, there's always the multiple worldlines theory, so no you couldn't be certain. If you went to tomorrow, watched the lottery numbers, went back to today and then waited 24 hours you wouldn't know whether they'd be the same or not.

Maybe the multiple worldlines thing is all BS, but nobody is certain about that either so you couldn't be about your numbers.

Mind bending fun!

P.S. Sorry for the OT everyone, but it's better than a re-run of "Rewriting the English Dictionary with SCJ".
 
Well, there's always the multiple worldlines theory, so no you couldn't be certain. If you went to tomorrow, watched the lottery numbers, went back to today and then waited 24 hours you wouldn't know whether they'd be the same or not.

Maybe the multiple worldlines thing is all BS, but nobody is certain about that either so you couldn't be about your numbers.

Mind bending fun!

Hmm, maybe we should get a time machine and find out, you got any spare ones lying around? :D

P.S. Sorry for the OT everyone, but it's better than a re-run of "Respeaking and Martian Bookwithwordsthingy flyingpotatoorangehybrid SCJ".

Fixed, what you wrote just made no sense at all.
 
Hmm, maybe we should get a time machine and find out, you got any spare ones lying around? :D

I concur. This can only be resolved by rigorous experimentation. I took apart my time machine last week because I needed to put my electric toothbrush back together, but I suppose I could be convinced to sacrifice it in the name of science. ;)

While we're at it, we could go back in time and gather some proof of evolution and the like. I bet it'd be real fun to drag the Missing Link to a bar and get him wasted. :D
 
I concur. This can only be resolved by rigorous experimentation. I took apart my time machine last week because I needed to put my electric toothbrush back together, but I suppose I could be convinced to sacrifice it in the name of science. ;)

While we're at it, we could go back in time and gather some proof of evolution and the like. I bet it'd be real fun to drag the Missing Link to a bar and get him wasted. :D

Think it's best to do that after our future experiments, won't want to be messing them up, and we could drag Liam and his merry band of creationist friends along and take them, oh I don't know, 6001 years into the past? :p If they still don't believe us we can take them to 13.7 billion years ago, I hear it's nice and warm this time of year. :)
 
Think it's best to do that after our future experiments, won't want to be messing them up, and we could drag Liam and his merry band of creationist friends along and take them, oh I don't know, 6001 years into the past? :p If they still don't believe us we can take them to 13.7 billion years ago, I hear it's nice and warm this time of year. :)

Some of the delusional folk think the world's age is 10,000 years though, so make that 10,001 years. (Or alternatively 65 million so they'll get to see the dinosaurs)
 
Huh, tell me more ... tell me more of how my knowledge of my existence s less questionable than gravity.

You can define yourself as that which causes your thoughts to appear in your head. Once you've done that, you (and only you) know that you exist as that entity. You don't even know for sure what you are, or your own nature, but you know that you exist as that entity.

The next thing you know is logic, and you don't know this as well as you know you exist. Logic sets up some rules and follows those rules. Logic says something like the following:

Suppose that I knew every time I have an apple I would also have a banana.
Now suppose I had an apple.
It would logically follow that I had a banana.

Now, you don't have to have an apple or a banana for that to be true. Apples and bananas do not need to actually exist in the universe for that to be true. I could substitute marklar for apple and well it would be marklar for banana too. Point is, the universe need not exist or contain an apple for logic to be correct that if you knew that every time you had an apple (even if you never do) you also had a banana (even if bananas are a figment of your imagination), and you knew you had an apple (even if you never do and they're also a figment of your imagination) that you'd also have a banana (whatever that is). Logic is based on deductive reasoning. If you assume a premise, you can deduce a conclusion.

Logic is fairly unquestionable because of its own self-contained premises. Even in the presence of a supernatural being that could change reality in a blink, logic still holds up. Because if God makes that banana disappear once you get an apple, your premises are now wrong. In the presence of a supreme being that can change the laws of nature and blink things into and out of existence though, logic is meaningless (even if still true) - because anything follows from the God premise. And that's why logic is #2 on the list and not co-number 1.

Math is #3 on the list because of the God problem. Math assumes something about the universe, namely that things don't blink into and out of existence, that if you put one thing together with another thing you have two things, and that god doesn't make a third thing pop into existence as soon as you added those two things together. Math is like applied logic, and the moment you apply it you assume something about the nature of reality - which is why it's number 3. If you made math conditional on the axioms that math is based on, then it just becomes a logic experiment and can be co-number 2, but really becomes moot until you assume that those axioms are truth.

Theory is #4 because it is fundamentally based on inductive reasoning (I say fundamentally because you can apply deductive reasoning to reach a conclusion, but you're using induction to apply it to reality). A theory is simply an explanation that fits the available evidence (facts). As new facts are presented, the theory may need to be altered to fit all available facts. This is the flaw in induction, you never know what new facts might be presented. It is easy to be wrong using induction: My apple is red, your apple is red, by induction we can conclude that apples are red (false). Fundamentally this is what science does, but science is aware of it and allows for adjustment to new evidence. Think of this as a "best effort" scenario. Obviously we can't achieve perfect knowledge, but we can draw some conclusions based on what we have seen and perhaps develop something useful. In fact, this method has turned about to remarkably useful.

Theory is where gravity falls into play. Gravity is a theory that fits the available evidence. It fits all available evidence (which is what a good theory does), but all it would take is one new example that doesn't fit our theory of gravity and suddenly it's back to the drawing board - totally possible. Gravity is based on inductive reasoning.

My apple is red, your apple is red, all apples are red (false)
My mass attracts, your mass attracts, all mass attracts (true?)

Hypothesis is #5 because it hasn't been tested against reality.

Perception might be co-number 5 or I might put it at #6 because perception is so easily incorrect - and often we know that it is incorrect because we are very familiar with where our biological perceptions go wrong. Your blind spot is a good example of that. You know that your finger doesn't disappear when you put it in your vision's blind spot, even though you perceive it disappearing.

Depending on one's approach to religion it is either hypothesis or perception.
 
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No it isn't. If I get out of a chair and stand up I don't do it with the belief I'll be able to stand up, I do it because I have the knowledge and experience of standing up. Belief doesn't come into it. I don't need to believe my legs are capable of standing and I don't need to believe the floor will support me when I do so - as they've done so many times before and I have accrued that understanding that they will.

No, you have accrued the belief that they will.
It is a reinforced and entrenched belief through repeated conditioning of positive outcome.
You just don't evaluate or contemplate it anymore.

Though admittedly after several pints of beer I've often held the belief that the floor won't support me, though we've already been over the fallibility of the mind in this thread before.

Usually its the other way around.
After a few pints, most people do not believe they are impaired and insist they can function normally, or even better than normal.
Of course after a few pints thats not always the result.
This is due to self assurance through entrenched and re-enforced belief of positive outcome.
They are no longer accustomed to contemplation of routine actions.
 
No, you have accrued the belief that they will.
No.

I don't need to believe the floor will support me for it to support me. Whether I believe it will or not, it still will.

If I were to clarify my flippant comment about alcohol, I should really say that I'd lack the belief that my legs will support me, rather than the floor...
 
Indeed. Given your obdurate reticence to provide even a mote of evidence in response to any request for it, I've acquired significant familiarity with it.

In fact, quite the opposite.

Then we'll stick with the fact you lied in your response, when you said you could accept it but reject the possibility in every other response..

Again, quite the opposite.
I accept, or by definition, tolerate your view.
However, since it is rationally untenable, I do not agree with your view.

"Yes or no" too difficult for you?Your response that you can accept people believe they live without belief is now also in direct contradiction - so even your lie is a lie now :lol:.


Both statements point out the contradiction.
I didn't know I needed to spell it out to you the first time.
Obviously, that was a over estimation on my part.

Objectivity.

Try again.
That is still a conclusion derived from"self".
Let me save you some time and trouble.
You can't legitimately remove "self".
Thats why it is a completely false concept.

People who set an alarm clock believing it will wake them no matter what are operating under a belief that disregards evidence. People who set an alarm clock expecting it to wake them are operating under an analysis of evidence and know that it might not.

Either way is pure "belief".
The action is proof of it.
Those in the latter group, clearly show their belief, is with the odds on favorability.
If they truly believed in the alternative, then they would choose not to set the clock.

You think everyone does the former.


How do you figure that, when I've stated at least twice now: "there is no gaurantee of future outcome".
Not to mention, I don't even set an alarm clock.
Lets see, I guess according to your rationale that means I don't believe in anything.:lol:

This is an intrinsic denial of your belief-oriented universe that you will never accept because your universe is belief-oriented.


Close, but no cigar.
Belief is universal though.

You do not accept that people can operate without belief. Yes or no?
See above.
 
That'll be a "yes" then.

See how much shorter the conversation could be if you're just honest and straight from the outset rather than being so deliberately (and, let's be kind, accidentally) vague?


The problem is that it's so fundamental to your lifestyle choice that every act must be guided by the power of belief that you cannot even begin to conceive of anyone ever acting differently. We know why you think that, we know why you do what you do, we accept that you see the world that way - but the "evidence" you provide for why you think what you think, when you deign to provide any, is nothing of the sort. It's both risable and pitiable that you lump it in with evidence simply because you have to contort the entire summation of knowledge to fit in with what's in your head.
 
Belief is universal though.
Saying this over and over doesn't make it any more true. You've so far been unable to sufficiently demonstrate why belief is universal.

Back to my floor example: Whether I believe or disbelieve the floor will support my weight doesn't affect whether it will or not. This is why I don't need to believe the floor will support me - it's irrelevant to the outcome. Belief plays no part in the process.

I suppose you could say that whether or not you believe belief is universal has no bearing on whether it is or not (hint: it isn't).
 

Oh yes.

I don't need to believe the floor will support me for it to support me. Whether I believe it will or not, it still will.

The true structural integrity of the floor is entirely beside the point.
If you are on that floor, you believe it will support you, having taken the action to get on it, proves that.
Granted, it may have been little if any evaluation in the process.
Otherwise, why would you get on it?

If I were to clarify my flippant comment about alcohol, I should really say that I'd lack the belief that my legs will support me, rather than the floor.

I thought that might be what you meant.

That'll be a "yes" then.

See how much shorter the conversation could be if you're just honest and straight from the outset rather than being so deliberately (and, let's be kind, accidentally) vague?

Having pointed out the same answer several posts ago, in what I considered an honest and straight forward approach, appeared to go unrecognized as such. That was not necessary IMO.
Hence, I felt compelled to leave no stone unturned in further explanation.
But then again, its best to be absolutely clear on things, when possible.

The problem is that it's so fundamental to your lifestyle choice that every act must be guided by the power of belief that you cannot even begin to conceive of anyone ever acting differently.


I must admit you have a legitimate point, as far as much of the discussion here.
But that is driven primarily from what is posted.

Actually I can concieve of it.
It happens everyday.
There are other categories of actions, that can be considered taken from other motivations.
Is that what you are referring too?

We know why you think that, we know why you do what you do, we accept that you see the world that way - but the "evidence" you provide for why you think what you think, when you deign to provide any, is nothing of the sort.


I just have to flat out disagree here.
Evidence, is evidence, is evidence.
Where it falls on the scale of individual perception, is.......what it is.
That does not, neither can it, transform evidence to unevidential status.
Its still evidence.

It's both risable and pitiable that you lump it in with evidence simply because you have to contort the entire summation of knowledge to fit in with what's in your head.

By what do you base the contortion of knowledge perspective.
Big surprise, I don't see any substantive basis for that.
 
Having pointed out the same answer several posts ago
You've actually not posted a direct answer save the one you've since contradicted. You've attempted to reinterpret the question to what people think and to how you tolerate what they think, but you've never actually answered it.

Since "I don't accept that people can live without belief" seems to be the least inconsistent with your subsequent positions, despite your earliest answer being that you don't find it difficult at all to accept this, that's what I'm going to have to sum as your position until you give a direct yes/no answer.

Do you accept that people can live without belief? Yes, or no.
I just have to flat out disagree here.
Evidence, is evidence, is evidence.
Where it falls on the scale of individual perception, is.......what it is.
That does not, neither can it, transform evidence to unevidential status.
Its still evidence.
Aaaaand we're back to this, where in your universe subjective testimony is evidence of what is being testified - rather than just evidence that there's a subject.

Crap you dream up and refuse to support with data isn't evidence.
By what do you base the contortion of knowledge perspective.
Big surprise, I don't see any substantive basis for that.
You ignore facts and reinterpret language, then pretend it's reality for everyone and everything in the universe - so that it fits in with what's in your head.
 
SuperCobraJet - As you didn't notice what I said the last time, whether deliberately or not, I will repeat myself: You are confusing the definition of belief with probability. It is highly improbable that the floor will not support me, you or anyone else. This is not based on belief, but on knowledge accrued over time. If I wanted to, I could mathematically prove that the floor would (or would not) support me, but I don't need to as experience has told me the odds of it supporting me are so overwhelmingly in my favour that it is basically a certainty.

And so goes my opinion on a deity; it is highly improbable that a God exists, the odds are so long that I personally choose to dismiss them, in the same way that I accept the floor will support me, or I'd dismiss the odds of playing for England at the World Cup next summer. I could be wrong, but it is so improbable that I personally have come to the decision that there is no God. Some people choose to have the faith that, despite these odds, he does exist.

Belief does not need to be a part of everyday life.
 
The more I see this dance between SCJ and everyone else, the more I wonder if SCJ is possibly the most brilliant troll I've seen. But the rather absurd consistency in word choice and writing just fits the Dunning Kruger model too well.

@SuperCobraJet, I believe you need to educate yourself on the meaning of the word "belief," I suggest the Oxford Dictionary. Also, read this article, which links to the relevant research.
 
Interestingly enough, My fingernails grow whether I believe they do or not.
What's even more interesting is how relevant this has become.
 
I explained in depth why that is not the case. You did not rebut, or even respond.

What post are you referring too?


You've actually not posted a direct answer save the one you've since contradicted. You've attempted to reinterpret the question to what people think and to how you tolerate what they think, but you've never actually answered it.

Since "I don't accept that people can live without belief" seems to be the least inconsistent with your subsequent positions, despite your earliest answer being that you don't find it difficult at all to accept this, that's what I'm going to have to sum as your position until you give a direct yes/no answer.

Do you accept that people can live without belief? Yes, or no.

You sure have a short memory.

Aaaaand we're back to this, where in your universe subjective testimony is evidence of what is being testified - rather than just evidence that there's a subject.

Where?
Already been here and done this.
Its acceptable as evidence in practically every judicial system the world over.
Sorry, if that doesn't fit your concept of evidence.

Crap you dream up and refuse to support with data isn't evidence.You ignore facts and reinterpret language, then pretend it's reality for everyone and everything in the universe - so that it fits in with what's in your head.

Nothing substantive.
You just don't like it.
Sorry again.
 
You sure have a short memory.
That's why I rely on things actually posted in the thread.

Do you accept that people can live without belief? Yes, or no.
Where?
Already been here and done this.
Its acceptable as evidence in practically every judicial system the world over.
Sorry, if that doesn't fit your concept of evidence.
It's been pointed out to you repeatedly that it's not acceptable as evidence in any judicial system except a kangaroo court (you failed to answer this) and that courts aren't science (you failed to answer this too).

Your evidence always amounts to "because I say so". No court on the planet would take that evidence.
Nothing substantive.
Again, it's only what you've posted.
You just don't like it.
Sorry again.
As it happens, I also don't like it. Ignorance through stupidity is fine. Ignorance through deliberate acts to pervert knowledge... I'm not a big fan of.
 
I see we're back for another round of "Does It Count As Evidence Table Tennis".

I wonder what would happen if SCJ actually tried to "prove" in court that God exists, using only his "testimonal evidence".
 
You sure have a short memory.

No, I'm with Famine. Your answers to this question haven't exactly been clear.

It's hard to have a reasonable discussion with you when we're not even clear exactly what your position is. Do us all a favour, and repeat the answer you think you gave previously, because we obviously didn't understand it then.

Do you accept that people can live without belief? Yes or no.
 
People can live without arms, legs, eyes, ears, noses and most of their brain. But that's a poorer life.

A life lived with health, excitement, adventure, discovery, learning, growth and development into all the wonderful things humans are capable of is better. The higher emotions such as love and empathy are highly prized. Rarest of all are such experiences as transcendence and ecstasy, reported by adepts in meditation - although sex, drugs and music run close behind.

Wouldn't you like to have a guru, or a system of practice, that could deliver these things to you?

Belief systems of various kinds are both personally and socially useful.
 
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Belief systems of various kinds are both personally and socially useful.

Belief systems are socially useful if you're living in a community of like-minded people.

If you're a feminist living in a hardline Islamic society, I imagine it's not so useful.

Likewise, people get varying levels of personal value out of their beliefs. Some people find that belief in the tenets of Christianity really enhances their lives. Others find that it's annoying BS that simply gets in the way of how they want to think about the world.

I don't think you can say that belief systems are useful to everyone, because they're not. It's possible to experience all the things you described without any particular belief. Some people may find it easier to have those experiences by adhering to a certain belief, and for them that's great.
 
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