drift faster than grip

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Yeah that is the basic idea that i was thinking of, with the slip angles differing for the degree of s turn curves...
 
Time to revive the thread again to get people interested in the Drift versus Grip: an Online Challenge 2, since bengee hasn't done so yet. It's in Laguna Seca with the Mitsubishi Evolution IV, super slick tires. Go to the link for details: Drift versus Grip: an Online Challenge 2. Participants wanted.
 
Good idea.

And, just to remind the people coming to this thread for the first time, the arguments have been done during the first 9 or 10 pages. Read that before you all decide to bring in any new arguments. Thank you.
 
Originally posted by 280Z_surge
I am firmly convinced that there is at least one scenario (possibly more than one) in which drifting can result in clearing a corner faster than grip racing. BUT... i don't know in what situations this would be true. Can anybody tell me when/where drift racing will be faster than grip?
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It all depends on how good the person drifting is orhow good the grip person is.:)
 
Bottom line is that Drifting (in the sense that we know it) isnt faster than Racing, BUT the fastest man in racing (arguably) is one of the best ast using the Drift technique to his advantage. Michael schumacher. In tight turns he brakes hard and deep and slides the back of the car around in a drifting manner, then gets the power down sooner than anyone else can. He learnt this whilst karting. I love drifting, but its pointless to assume that going sideways is gonna get you around a corner faster. Even in rallying, if a rally driver KNEW the track well, he wouldnt drift as much. cos gripping would be faster
 
That's not true. Sure it's pointless to assume drifting is faster, but it's pointless to assume anything. The physics of whether or not drifting is faster though has already been covered so I won't go there.

Rally drivers would never grip. They'd have to go so slow... have you ever been in a rally car?
 
I think I'd have to conclude that only in rally racing does drifting a corner prove faster than gripping it. Attempting to slow down in a rally car in their rally conditions just to grip a corner is inefficient. Correct me if I'm wrong about that. (I don't think we've covered rallying in this thread yet.)
 
Even in rallying, if a rally driver KNEW the track well, he wouldnt drift as much.DRIFT AAAASSS MUCH.
Ask any rally driver, the reason they go sideways, is not so much to go fast, but to keep control of the vehicle under unpredictable circumstances. Lets assume its a special stage in monte carlo, on a dry monaco. lets assume CM doesnt know the track and his taking notes form his navigator.
Note how he slides around all the corners.
Now lets give the same car to Colin after his mastered the track.
Note how he still slides around, using all available grip, but not sliding AS much. THAT is grip driving, and THAT is faster.

I think the term GRIP is use incorrectly sometimes as its not an absolute term, like I mentioned earlier, driving on the limit, entails using ALL available grip, and then some. hence SOME drifting involved.... Im begining to confuse myself now! :)
 
Has anyone seen any Best Motoring Battles?
Most of the drivers there are pro drifters, and in battles, NONE of them drift to gain any sort of advantage... Why is that?
 
Originally posted by diablo-wp
Even in rallying, if a rally driver KNEW the track well, he wouldnt drift as much.DRIFT AAAASSS MUCH.
Ask any rally driver, the reason they go sideways, is not so much to go fast, but to keep control of the vehicle under unpredictable circumstances. Lets assume its a special stage in monte carlo, on a dry monaco. lets assume CM doesnt know the track and his taking notes form his navigator.
Note how he slides around all the corners.
Now lets give the same car to Colin after his mastered the track.
Note how he still slides around, using all available grip, but not sliding AS much. THAT is grip driving, and THAT is faster.

I think the term GRIP is use incorrectly sometimes as its not an absolute term, like I mentioned earlier, driving on the limit, entails using ALL available grip, and then some. hence SOME drifting involved.... Im begining to confuse myself now! :)
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What? Yes, grip is an absolute term. If a tire is sliding, you aren't gripping. I can tell you haven't read the previous pages of this thread. What you're talking about, using the most available traction, is one of the definitions (there seem to be two) of 4-wheel drifting that we discussed previously.
 
Like I said, driving on the limit, entails losing grip sometimes, but as I understand the TERM grip, its used for fast driving. I see your point tho.
 
Personally I agree with you, I think that you can have a very limited amount of slip and still be "grip" driving. Not much though, not enough to make any smoke or really even be very noticable. The car will be sideways only enough to prevent you from having to turn into the corner (but not enough so that you have to countersteer). Most of the people on this forum refer to that as 4-wheel drifting though.
 
LOL... Technically that is 4 wheeld drift... "grip with slip"... And no matter what, that is the fastest way around most corners... Countersteering is not always necessary (when actually in the turn)... Just thought i would point that out... On a dirt course there is no way that a driver would not drift ( it is not practical to slow down as perg said). The friction levels are much less of dirt so four wheel drift has greater drift angles and the balance between 4wheel and exhibition is less clear ( just becuase exhibition is easier to slip into). Maintaining grip while driving fast is grip driving... and to me this entails absolutely no slip angle... The only reason there is this confusion over hte term 4 wheeld drift is becuqase everyone now thinks of drift as a showy thing only... And in the beginning that is not how it was at all...
 
Originally posted by bengee
LOL... Technically that is 4 wheeld drift... "grip with slip"... And no matter what, that is the fastest way around most corners... Countersteering is not always necessary (when actually in the turn)... Just thought i would point that out... On a dirt course there is no way that a driver would not drift ( it is not practical to slow down as perg said). The friction levels are much less of dirt so four wheel drift has greater drift angles and the balance between 4wheel and exhibition is less clear ( just becuase exhibition is easier to slip into). Maintaining grip while driving fast is grip driving... and to me this entails absolutely no slip angle... The only reason there is this confusion over hte term 4 wheeld drift is becuqase everyone now thinks of drift as a showy thing only... And in the beginning that is not how it was at all...
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Well said! Many people think of drift as a showy thing and haven't found ways of utilizing it correctly for racing and thus always expect to see huge countersteers to categorize it as a drift...which is incorrect. In my book drifting in a race scenario means knowing how to get the car's rear to rotate out and loss traction to get that angle advantage when entering or exiting as you battle another car for drafting and overtaking purposes.
 
Bengee, for the record, I still disagree. Everyone I've ever discussed this with in real life or on any other forum has agreed that grip driving can utilize slip angles and is still considered grip, and that 4-wheel drifting is merely the act of drifting without countersteer (as oppose to 2-wheel drifting). There are no hidding meanings to suggest a perfect line or particular approach or execution, 4-wheel drift simply means 4-wheel drift, all four wheels drifting.
 
It all depends on the car. Look at sprint cars and do you ppl remember the great GP driver Nuvolari? I say that before the modern suspension in the 60s came in drifting was the fastest way around a corner.
 
I still say that the only reason y terms have become confused like this is because of the growing populatirty of exhibition drifting...

But to avoid confusion i will from now on discuss what i comprehend as racing/4 wheeld drift as throttle steer... Inorder to avoid further arguements... We all know what we are talking about and what we believe is a name for a certain thing really shouldnt matter...

The fact is that exhibition drifting is slow in most corners unless speed throught he corner must be sacrificed for a good exit angle and exit acceleration...

throttle steering is the ideal way through any corner, but is not possible out of theory in many corners... this should always be used in combination with exhibition drifting where exhibition drift is useful... in order to minimize exhibition drift and therefore loss of speed...

grip is what is done without slip angles... in my opinion... you slow down to the correct speed and take the corner without any risk of loosing grip and thus without any noticeable slip angles...

s13 you are very correct about that... especially since race car designs had extremely poor aerodynamics... And he points out what i have been trying to say for a while... if you search 4 wheel drift on lets say google you will come up with endless sights about racing drifts done back int he day in grand prix races... and what do they discuss... throttle steer... However language changes with changing trends... with improved vehicle dynamics ( with electronics everywhere from tires to suspension to brakes) no car in a race drifts any more... we rely on our technology and areodynamics to allow for callibrations of suspensions and chassis that were once impossible and allow us to push the limits of speed with human driven vehicles without ever ( or actually rarely) breaking traction...

the 4 wheel drift that you discussed ( no countersteer and loss of traction on all wheels) is still exhibition and has nothing to do with going fast... throttle steer (which is 4 wheel drift as i define the word) is supposed to be done without countersteer except for the exit of turns for short amounts of time at most... but that is incredibly hard to do... in the game or in real life... that is why it is called throttle steer... you take the corner steering with brakes throttle and inbetween states... The only way this is possible is if you are at the limit of traction on your tires so that gassing will grant the driver oversteer and braking/ letting off hte throttle will provoke understeer...

throttle steer also does not mean you took some perfect line... although it would be nice if you did... it is simply the fastest way on most corners (excluding high speed ones where this method really would be difficult to uphold).
 
Perhaps my definition is inclusive of yours? I suppose what you're describing would really be the pinnacle of what I'm describing. In other words, what I'm describing taken to the highest level.
 
To get back into the conversation here, I really think that you are both talking about the same thing. I thought that 4-wheel drift had already been defined on page 8 or something, but I can see where confusion in terminology comes in. Perg, your definition is, from my understanding, only part of what bengee's throttle steer describes. That's from my understanding. But if you can enlighten all of us more on this topic, that would be nice.
 
TaiLo, I believe that's correct. My definition is just a little more loose is all, including anything that involves all four wheels sliding, whereas bengee's definition is much more strict to include only the specific scenario where the maximum corner speed is obtained by drifting as little as possible to keep traction up while still getting the benefits of a drift's quick exit.
 
Lets put it this way... My definition is a limit... Perg's is inclusive of any driving style that resembles this limit... HOwever the closer you get to the limit i have described the faster you will be... A similar arguement can be made for grip driving...

this is a repeat of an arguement that was kinda solved months ago... :D... but hey when its the best arguement on the forum... its the best thread to revisist from time to time... :D
 
Ah, good description. Yours is a limit, mine is a style in general. I agree. Good arguments kick my ass.


(..don't think about that too hard..)
 
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