F.I.T.T WSR/Senna F3 Challenge

Discussion in 'GT6 Tuning' started by Pete05, Aug 31, 2015.

  1. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    Interesting, I notice you never come fully off the throttle even when braking. How does that affect the cars performance?
     
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  2. Soren Jacquet

    Soren Jacquet

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    It infact does the car a little more stable and it function a little bit like TC
     
  3. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    Ahh ok, I use the analogue sticks so I can't trail the throttle when on the brakes :( I usually blip the throttle when coming off the brakes as I find it stops the car diving into the corner when the LSD loosens, I wish I had a wheel though, would make balancing the throttle and brakes much easier
     
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  4. Soren Jacquet

    Soren Jacquet

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    It´s much more easy to drive around with a wheel than a pad , I have only been using my wheel four about 4-5 month now and are still something new everyday
     
  5. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    Just checked my testing lap times and what type of settings they had, slowest cars were running zero camber, and I mean slowest race pace runners. Those might have changes to do one lap wonder times but other tunes will sweep table on stability and constant lap times when running race.
    Difference is not big on race pace pushing between cars, fastest got 1:24.410 and next four or five were in 0.3 margin after that.

    Can you upload that replay on somewhere?
    Us there some slowmotion activated on record, or is that actual speed of your game play?
     
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  6. MrGrado

    MrGrado

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    Testing

    @DolHaus DC 9.5
    1:23.530
    A bit of a dog when it's not driven in it's sweet zone. What saves this tune is, the sweet zone is found by driving it at ten tenths! Need to be in the zone driving this with DS3, but boy it's fast!

    @Motor City Hami DC 9
    1:23.717
    Can oversteer on corner entry. Better in high speed corners than low speed corners. Vague feeling at the limit. Doesn't like kerbs. Second last corner can be difficult. Has got potential to go faster, it's just difficult to get with DS3. Great gearbox.

    @Otaliema DC 10
    1:23.914
    Really nice tune. Very good from the braking point to corner apex. You can really hunt apexes and chase after a hot lap time. Good grip and great balance.

    @MrGrado DC 9.25
    1:24.047
    Needs some tweaks. Fairly fast but misbehaves almost at random but occasionally will go through almost any bend as good as any other tune.

    @Pete05 DC 9.75
    1:24.061
    Has a really good 3rd gear for the 3rd gear bends. Good on bumps. Fast tune. For me it seemed to drive a little bit similar to my tune, I think LSD and toe settings are the reasons why. Not nearly as misbehaving as my tune though. Good grip and well balanced.

    @Bowtie-muscle DC 8.75
    1:24.161
    A decent enough tune. Very easy to drive. It just feels a bit vanilla to drive, would need some adjustment to become wicked fast.

    @shaunm80 DC 8
    1:24.515
    This tune will go through some corners very, very nicely. It drives nice overally, it's just missing something to feel really great or to get a few more tenths out of the laps.

    @fordracer DC 8.25
    1:24.888
    Stable. Needs to be more nimble to be faster. Good on kerbs.

    @sinof1337 DC 7.5
    1:25.032
    Speed in corners too low.

    @Ridox2JZGTE DC 7.5
    1:25.275
    Fast in a straight line. Speed in corners too low.

    @xande1959 DC 7.5
    1:25.938
    Good levels of grip just not available. I was having to come off the throttle between apex and exit quite a bit.

    Results Complete!

    Tested with DS3 (stick and triggers, sensitivity max). MT. ABS zero.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2015
  7. Soren Jacquet

    Soren Jacquet

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    It´s the actual speed from the game , just recordet from tv with a web cam

    this replay is also on youtube under my channal DJWoody44
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2015
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  8. coryclifford

    coryclifford

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    17.46/17.46
    3/3
    3/3
    3/4
    0/0
    0/0
    Brakes 5/5
    Trans to default
    Max Speed all the way left
    3.000 Final
    LSD 6/5/5
    Downforce 800/955
     
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  9. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    I'm not sure I understand your approach to test driving?
     
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  10. Pete05

    Pete05 Premium

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    Thank you for testing MrGrado. Can you please tag me & @Otaliema when you have finished your testing so that we may record the results.
     
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  11. Otaliema

    Otaliema

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    If you use the same type of approach with a 0/0 or even a .5 or less car as 1.0+ cover car the camber cars will do better as the added grip will cause the car to be twitchy. If you drive in hard as 0/0 wants (in GT6) even with out changing your braking point you will carry more speed at the apex.

    Great to hear you enjoyed my tune. I look forward to the rest of the results. Tag me when you're done editing so I can load the times.

    I am a little on the inconsistent side with my driving, and that shows in the replay, early into one late into two perfect three-six and slow in seven and eight.

    Switch to L2/R2 brakes and throttle. Will take a bit of getting use but you gain left foot breaking.
     
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  12. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    I first take many lap as needed to find car behavior and bit limits, then run several laps row on speed what will be inside of limits what car has shown, and then pushing bit more till car starts to feel uncomfortable to take asked speed, then trying to push few quick laps on that knowledge what car has shown.
    Practically making quickest laps as possible without risking to drive out, still some cars spinned out or otherwise got out of hand.
    All cars get same treatment, some needed few laps more than others to find their temper reasons and how it could be used or avoid.
    Things what racecar needs is maneuverability, not quick railgun what goes out if not hitting rails and rails are spread on whole track wide, so quick driving in pack would be just nightmare.
    I'm assuming at were testing cars, not just hotlapping, or if this event only reason is make quick TT-tuned unrealistic manners having freak then I have understand this totally wrong.
    I'm searching from tunes speed, stability, enjoyment of driving, giving out things what I like or not like on those. There is no speed only, or stability only those have to be all on time or I keep it more or less failure or incomplete tune what needs improvement. Also Senna way dancer style would get extras from me, there was that in the air too, on fast tunes.

    There is that thing what stable tuning isn't, if tune speed is got from last change lines braking points,, places where minor miss will make you fly out of track I consider that a failure tune, zero real life driver would like to race car like that, but ability to take last chance braking and different driving lines and changing them on fly would be really great for driver, that type of car can really use whole track to find door where make overtaking. Snappy suspension and driving line change during cornering will lead to grass or wall.

    There is only one word, balance. If car has it then you can dance any dance on track lap after lap.
    If car have speed also it would go on podium.
    When those both are on same car it will be just enjoyable high speed cruising with ability to push few seconds out from normal race pace if situation demands it. <-probably all cars what I tested will lap second or two faster if just trying to push and push hotlap on them, but that's not testing, that's hotlapping.
     
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  13. Otaliema

    Otaliema

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    Agreed. Cars shouldn't be that twitchy for these challenges. The ones that are seldom so well as must testers will only do ten-fifteen laps, most of us are not alien skill level drivers so hot lap tunes that bite your head off for a small mistake seldom get a full potential lap from enough drivers to place well.
    You're right this is testing not hot lapping, as long as you give all cars the same treatment then the tests are considered fair. We understand that not all tunes get along with all drivers. Most of us just find high cambered cars slower, maybe easier to drive consistently, but at this time FITT rules are based on fastest lap, on the theory that highest quality tune will come out on top as more drivers of different skill levels will consistently get faster laps in it.
     
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  14. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    Absolutely, that's reason why ie toke first three car again on track to be sure at those lap times are still valid and there is no favor on last tunes due more laps under belt when they had their turn.
    Six cars between times 1:24.410 and 1:24.960, I would say that is fair treatment on all, rest were between 1:25.036 and 1:25.627, on cars what were going above 1:25 I tried really hard to get them under it too, I saw potential there but no chance on reasonable amount of laps to do it, always ending up on someway problems, few sectors fine and then missing slightly line or something.

    Camber is just asking more smoothness from driver, if trying to smash arcade way on those you'll find them slow, PD deserves a big kudos from FFB coding, that's just absolutely best what I have ever felt on car game (can't use SIM word ;)), it gives so much information, people are ranting sounds, without listening small nuances what there is, looking billboards on track side without noticing how much information horizon is giving, when you "listen" all this your driving on camber starts to go way better.
    None of you would slam pedals or wheel on real life like many of these tunes are now demanding you to do, or you don't have muscles to rotate wheel on such speed.
    Quick mathematics of zero and non zero camber, zero had has 100% touch on ground, also when traction is lost it's lost 100% at once. Camber tuned have smaller contact pad, but also grip losing is coming gradually, I'll prefer having some contact on ground than no contact at all.
     
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  15. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    This is a time trial event, time trials mean you go as fast as possible even if you only put together one lap in 10. Nowhere in the event brief does it mention that the cars should be tuned for racing and consistency, to grade them as such is to change the rules. If I'd known I was going to be marked for consistency then I would have built a different car.
     
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  16. Pete05

    Pete05 Premium

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    Guys, I want to make it 100% clear this is a FITT competition for tuners and testers alike.
    Anyone in doubt about how this competition is run & won, needs to refresh their memories by reading the OP on page 1. The guidelines are there for all to see.
    Equal points will be awarded for both the fastest tunes AND for the top contenders in the DC component.
    How a tune is created is up to the individual, as is how a tester drives their laps.
    So, let's get on with having fun and leave the opinions & debate on who does what and how for some other time.
    :gtpflag:
     
  17. Bowtie-muscle

    Bowtie-muscle

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    @OdeFinn I will not quote your whole post since I'm using my phone and it's difficult to get the point you made that I want. But, the rules state "fastest lap wins". Some take this to mean TT tunes, and if you can only get 1 or 2 clean laps but are very fast, that tune finished higher or wins.
    As stated here, and correctly so. DolHaus builds some fast tunes, but they may not always be the easiest to achieve that fast lap. He built a Diablo tune, once you got the hang of ot, wow was it fast. Also a GTO tune which was amazing and changed the way I drove. But neither was able to go red lap free and be pushed. I still have that Diablo in my garage.:D

    Here pete05 is correct. How you score DC depends on how "YOU" view the tune. According to what you as a tester prefer and are looking for.

    My tunes have been labeled: safe, too safe, timid, easy. And already in this challenge, vanilla. I'm ok with that and take it as a compliment. My approach is different, I try an build a fast tune that is consistent. Hopefully gaining a little each lap, but this rarely results in a win, although it has. It also sometimes hurts DC with some testers looking for something more exciting or fun. Either way, the results don't lie as I usually am near the front. Although I have finished dead last and built one bad tune that was slow. You get your voice in DC to grade as you see FITT. But most of all, I hope you enjoy driving all the different tune.

    @MrGrado I know your review was incomplete the last I checked, but thank you for testing and hope you enjoyed. Vanilla as my tunes tend to be, can't be too bad if the next two fastest were only a tenth quicker and .4 behind your fastest. I'll take. :dopey:
     
  18. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    I like to keep the manufacturers of crash barriers and tyre bundles in business :lol:
     
  19. Bowtie-muscle

    Bowtie-muscle

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    And this is virtual so there's nothing wrong with that.;)
     
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  20. Soren Jacquet

    Soren Jacquet

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    I have to say I like when a car is difficult to drive around , because it makes me to a better driver, I still learn alot of thise test , 10 different car and 10 different ways the react . some oversteer some understeer some cant brake others brakes fantastic but the may not be fast , so all in all thats is what makes me a better driver
     
  21. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    In aware Of this, my testing technic is probably more than fair in manners of TT event, bit a single lap counting, but pile of single laps from different "testers"and difference between those piles are making "winner", my tests are giving fair differences of those tunes and that really match on TT event ideology.I'm not participating as a individual on quick lap race against other racers. For competition only thing what matters is fair treatment on all tunes and speed differences are telling "truth".
    Other part of combo Drivers Choice is coming where ever driver wants it to be. I was fair and give my mainline things on public.

    That is practically not my thing to worry why wins, or if it's then I'm doing my job as tester wrong and biased, I'm just pushing cars on same limits and writing results down.
    Btw. Most of my test laps I didn't even know whose tune is under, after testing had to check from tune sheet. I entered three tunes at once on sheets and labeled them like dol, mch,mcgr and having close to zero clue what type of settings are i use while driving, didn't look on any setting before only after testing and written down impressions, then looked why car was behaving like it was.

    Understood.

    If someone says tune too safe, then laptime should be good. Or there there has to be some setting making car slow, slow doesn't mean safe, or safe to slow. That type of statements would come only if driver is not treating on same interest on all tunes.
    Yes there was few really brilliant tunes, guys who probably have good sense on their hands and ability to read signals from game, those tunes were tasty.
     
  22. Bowtie-muscle

    Bowtie-muscle

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    Just trying to help, and appreciate your time and approach. Am looking forward to your results, and hope you enjoyed testing. Hope my post was not read the wrong way, not trying to be anything more than helpful.
     
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  23. Pete05

    Pete05 Premium

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    I'd like to share a story with you all about a guy from Tolpuddle in the U.K named Win Percy a.k.a Winnie the shoe.
    He was one of the fastest touring car drivers to ever put on a driving suit & a long term driver for TWR. At the end of 1990, after winning the Bathurst 1000, he was given the job of lead driver & team manager for the Holden Racing Team. Although Win had been coming to Australia for a number of years, he only knew 2 of our circuits so 1991 was going to be a learning year whenever he turned up somewhere new.
    At the time, I was a Flagmarshall and attended all the races in my home State. You don't get closer unless you're in the cars so it's the second best seat available. Among the Flagmarshalls was a running joke of how long will it take Percy to spin off. Some of them reckoned he was lacking brain cells. His race results said otherwise.
    Win explained that as he was a rookie at these new (to him) racetracks, he needed to push just past the limit otherwise how would he know where it was. At the end of the championship, he was the highest placed of all the Commodore drivers including Aussie legends such as Peter Brock & Larry Perkins. He also backed up that form by being the best of the rest against the all conquering Godzilla GT-R at Bathurst.
     
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  24. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    This is just the point what I have been with those tunes. All new to me, first learn basic limits and manners from each and then start to push till limit comes on face, then do lap what's inside limits, but making sure at I'm not spinning out.

    In exemple on @Ridox2JZGTE fan club racing there is been this same thing several times, picking new car+tune under, pushing race pace times on it, comparing among other racers (prior actual race) and when race day comes I was able to squeeze second to nearly three out from my pre race test times, just because pushing closer to risk limits and knowing that. Yes sometimes spinning, but mostly keeping car on track. This pushing was after racing several and several laps on race pace, getting more and more familiar with car. On my case this ABS on current WSR testing is making me slower, because I don't have full trust on it because I'm normally racing only without ABS.
    So I'll bet at all my times can be faster if learning more on all cars, or if concentrating on one it would go remarkable much faster, BUT that's not happening, I wanted to give all cars/tunes equal seat time, learning state, and risk level what to use on test runs.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2015
  25. fordracer

    fordracer

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    My heart goes out to OdeFinn. No where does it STATE in the Standardized Rules or in post #1 of this event that this is a Time Trial Challenge. It is IMPLIED, "points will be awarded for the fastest lap".

    It looks like if I want to test your cars backwards, it is my right to do so!

    Thank You Pete05.

    I am here to support Pete05 on his first event sponsorship, and think he is doing a great job. A few of you have been super supportive of me, others....not so much. I have been in OdeFinnn's shoes in past events, and now I'm not testing. The event was followed and the cars run, and learned what I could.

    Its my car with all the camber, and I'm satisfied with it. It meets my criteria and experience level. The input on how it CAN go faster is great, much appreciated. Statements like "you should"...not so much.

    Everybody has different expectations, goals, skill levels, tastes, styles, criteria and wants..... as a group....lets be a little more respectful of that. We will all have a lot more fun!
     
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  26. Otaliema

    Otaliema

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    Exactly. If we don't have fun than what's the point right?
    Your car was good solid and consistent I just couldn't carry speed with all the camber it has. I will take it back out again see what I can shave off it.
     
  27. Bowtie-muscle

    Bowtie-muscle

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    :tup:
     
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  28. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    My reviews, these are highly objective, and if any of tuners want more info and testing in constructive way I'm ready to help. Don't kill the messenger :)

    @Bowtie-muscle
    1:25.243 DC:8
    First tested tune, first laps I tried to find that pink elephant dorm sitting on my front axle.
    Front was slightly too heavy, springs or wings, or fixing weight more to rear for balancing car
    Understeering happens during coasting, and some oversteer during trail braking and soon after lifting throttle, both are just results of slightly too heavy front(or light rear).
    Driving line changes are hard to comply due above, you just have to stay throttle on floor thru whole turn and be sure at your entry was hitting on right line.
    TT-setup on current condition, after balancing car it would be great on races.

    @DolHaus
    1:24.525 DC:9
    Nice balanced car, springs and dampers are making nice packet, even it has tendency to jump all four wheels off ground on bumps/curbs, that starts stable four wheel slide what is possible to recover. Is there slightly too stiff suspension? Good maneuverability even that four wheel slide can happen, would take to race against other people.

    @fordracer
    1:25.514 DC:7.5
    Balanced car, but running on toes, nees extra careful cornering smoothnes on all aspects, can carry crazy amount of speed in corner, but gathering more inside is really difficult. Throwing in corner and slamming throttle on floor and drift bit is another way what feels to work, my technic on either of those were lacking bit of skill, can't take it faster on this amount of driving.
    maybe bit less camber, or scrubbing tire with toe would make it bit easier and faster on my hands.

    @Motor City Hami
    1:24.960 DC:6.5
    TT-setup, unpredictable non linear driving balance, could do really quick laps but not constantly.
    Fluffy heavily understeering steering fixed with heavy brake side lock, this combination makes false feeling of good turning, steering wheel rotation angle tells truth about heavy understeer on front and throttle manipulation shows oversteer from rear, and when making mistake on driving line/steer-/throttle input it shows how unpredictable balance is. Driving when all hits right it goes like dream, but making such drive takes lot from driver when trying to balance between over and understeer.
    Conclusion, fast for TT.

    @MrGrado
    1:24.721 DC:9.5
    Excellent car for racing against other persons, capable of taking any line and changing line during cornering possible, real racecar what can be used for overtaking in any desired way.
    Rear suspension is slightly stiff making rear vulnerable on curb hits on weight carrying side, minimal softening there and we have one sweet packet.
    Knowing this and not taking wide exit lines it can push identical lap times lap after lap.
    This tune will stay on my Ralt setup sheet.

    @Otaliema
    1:24.696 DC:7.5
    Good, fast, but too soft suspension, needs extra care on weight transferring from side to side, rear even more softer than front, it slips from under too easily.
    Hard or impossible to recover from traction loss situation.
    Stiffening suspension to get that weight transfer in control and it would be great for racing, current condition only TT-setup.

    @Pete05
    1:25.118 DC:8
    Gives feeling at your going on toes, soft toes, may happen snap gripping from slides.
    Soft suspension, needs bit stiffening, average capability to use and change different driving lines. Somehow this leaves feeling of base tune what's just waiting for polishing, there is all good setup things, but that final polish is missing.

    @Ridox2JZGTE
    1:24.582 DC:9.5
    Well working packet, slight understeer during higher speed cornering, avoidable, but not perfect front, probably few kilos more front aero or less rear would fix it.
    Car is capable taking any line, no surprises on traction loss situation, smooth ride, easy to learn manners of car.
    Would use against other fellow racers.

    @shaunm80
    1:24.410 DC:9
    Really good, ready for racing, really stable overall balance, throttle response is one inch from perfect, you can steer with throttle, but you don't have to do it.
    Minor understeer, and bit vulnerable for spinning while rear skids, probably just minor change on lock, opening it bit and it's perfect.
    Setup what will stay on my cars sheet.

    @sinof1337
    1:25.627 DC:6.5
    TT-setup, understeering at high speeds, oversteering on low speeds, deadly on curbs, but if avoiding those somehow you might lap a really fast laps.
    I'm needing more balance from car, didn't hit on that rail what this car needs from driver and track.

    @xande1959
    1:25.036 DC:8.5
    Bit over responsive steering, but balance is so good at it is not tune breaker, definitely setup for racing.
     
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  29. fordracer

    fordracer

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    Thanks for you time and insight OdeFinn. Great times and informative reviews. :tup: Hope to see you behind the wheel of my machine again.
     
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  30. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

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    Thank you all for the test reviews :cheers: Very happy the car did decent lap time :) The car was built long time ago, it was meant for sports tire ( SM/SS ) and tuned to reduce the overall grip of the car to get close to the time period cars :) Back in 80's, the RALT F3 uses cross ply slick ( AVON / Yokohama ) which heats up quickly compared to radial slick, and has lesser peak grip overall as the compound couldn't be as soft as with radial to maintain the heat buildup :) When I first drove the F3, I used SH tire with medium camber, and built the car from there. Aero was set as low possible at the rear, with front originally about 50 higher than posted here, in which I reduced to lessen the response and grip at high speed ( above 160kmh ) Still glad the car is easy enough to drive with good traction, albeit slower in medium-high cornering speed due to the low aero.

    Cross ply slick were harder back then, and with less flex, most F3 were running quite low camber ( below -2 ) Classic F3 teams still running in historic races event today even suggested to start with base line camber and toe like what I used on the tune posted for this event. Zero at rear, and -0.5 at front, while the toe out at front and toe in at rear quite large :) The real RALT F3 RT3 generally ran a lot softer springs ( half of what I used here ) as starting point. The ground effect used also makes these little open wheeler dangerous when hitting raised curb or catching air.

    For the LSD, I have 3 different setup made ( all offered by Hewland on MK9 ), I used the low preload and low lock option as it's the common practice for low powered lightweight open wheel car with aero. The F3 also drives well with higher lock/preload when I tested able to get a bit faster by one tenth on 1st lap than with LSD posted here, but it requires more delicate throttle and careful use of line when braking. As I wanted a car that can also be easily pushed in racing with tire wear ( very fast ), I opted for low lock LSD.

    The gear ratio used are straight from Hewland Mk9 catalog, the spread is set to suit the track, with final drive chosen from several available to allow the car hit close to redline on the highest speed part of the track.

    The tune also planned to be used on the ridox club race with SH/SM/SS tire if @danbojte agrees :p

    Once again, thanks for sparing time to drive and give feedback :p
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2015