Ford Mustang Thread: 2011 General Talk

[Stotty]

Don't worry ///M-Spec, I'm more than happy with my 10 y/o Porsche, whatever TA thinks of it

Anyhow, on to more interesting points...

From Autocar, 4th November 2009, Focus RS v Scirocco R v 370Z
First impressions tend to last in the Nissan's case because, on the move, it has a rough and ready side to it's personality above which, once again, the VW elevates itself. As does the Focus RS.

Even when your bumbling around at 40mph, the Nissan is noisier and busier than its rivals. It's V6 engine produces a charismatic V6 blast when you fire it up, and it's a theme that continues when you move away; on the road the Nissan immediately feels gutsy and sounds big-hearted. But there's also a peculiarly harsh quality to the way the engine behaves that, even in isolation, is not especially pleasant to experience.

And compared with the smooth, amazingly potent engine in the Focus and the even more cultured powerplant of the VW, the Nissan's motor and transmission feel doubly unrefined.

This would be more acceptable were the 370Z capable of dispatching the front drivers in to the undergrowth with a greater level of performance, but unfortunately it can't do that either. In reality it's all too easy to get caught with not enough revs dialled in, at which point the extra torque and mid range of the Ford and VW makes a big difference in a very short space of time.

If you're not concentrating, the 370Z can get dropped by the others in a hearbeat, and that's before you come to any corners, when things get worse for the Nissan by comparison.

If anything, it's the Scirocco that exposes the 370's flaws, more so than the RS, mainly because the Scirocco is so undramatic in the the way it goer about dismantling a tricky piece of road. The Scirocco's chassis is not only beautifully judged, but getting the best out of it requires much less effort than in the Nissan.

As a result, you can end up driving the VW at what feels like nothing more than a mild canter, only to casually look in the rear view mirror and see the eyes of the 370Z driver bulging.

Snip...

When you're right in the zone with the RS, there's nothing the 370Z can do to touch it, either subjectively or objectively. The Focus is much more fun to drive and so much faster across the ground that the Nissan doesn't get a look in by comparision.

Rest of the test focuses on the RS v R, with the R coming out on top as the better all round proposition.

From CAR magazine, issue 568, November 2009, PCOTY issue
Synchro Rev Control. If the 370Z virgins went away with one memory of the Nissan it was the brilliantly simple but effective rev-matching software that makes you feel dextrous as a professional racing driver with every downchange.

But one smart gadget isn't enough to lift the Z on to an even keel with the big boys for enjoyment. Odd as it might seem, while capable of some quick times, the Z isn't as enjoyable on track as you'd expect a brawny coupe delivering 320bhp to the rear wheels to be. The steering is ludicrously heavy and, far from being an oversteering monster, the Nissan just doesn't have enough torque to overcome it's traction.

And that wouldn't be a problem if it felt as lithe as the Caymen or as eager to switch tack as the Evora. It is entertaining, but it can't match it's rivals' poise thanks to an extra 200kg of flab.

It feel stiff legged over the tough moorland roads and the retro NVH levels are wearing.

From EVO magazine, issue 138, November 2009, COTY issue
On why the 370Z didn't even make the competition....

There's lots to like about the thoroughly re-worked 370Z, including its hunkier looks and clever automatic throttle blip. However, the more powerful engine has gone backwards in terms of refinement, sounding quite course in the mid-range, and the handling is less clean and decisive. Two steps forward....


True definition of a sportscar... LMFAO

 

[Leonidae]

Well the problem with the Camaro is that it's an overweight pig. That's great that it has IRS to improve the handling and ride (moreso on rough roads), but weight is the bigger issue with that car.

I admit that it is heavy, but how many of the buyers who are looking to buy a rebuilt piece of their youth or childhood, will pay attention to numbers? these cars sell with their looks, be it '65 Mustang fastback look-a-like or '69 Camaro look-a-like. 300bhp+ is enough to get it moving at decent pace, it comes with manual and clutch pedal and has plenty of options to get the car like the customer wants it to be. And if I would be worried about weight, I would be looking for an Elise or Factory 5 replicas that have crash safety of.. wait, they don't have any.

 

[The Outlaw]

The the auto blipping on downshifting can make marginal drivers drivers look good, not that I wouldn't want a transmission that does that. The only other thing I could find was 370Z also has stability control. I thought there were more things but I guess not. <- sorta invalidates my point

I was speaking more like the tighter tracks like Autobahn Country Club and Blackhawk Farms which are technical, tight tracks. And you're right, driver ability does play into it a lot.

You may not be one but you do come off as a Mustang hater.

I just speak the truth bro...take it or leave it 👍 I'm not one to sugar coat anything...I rather share my opinion, which is usually the least biased most truthful opinion you'll find in most forums.

BTW, I own a Turbocharged 07 GT which you can see pictures of if you view my profile. Even if I was a hater (which I'm not) I should be entitled to make criticism being that I own one, especially considering the long list of cars I've owned and driven which can be used as a reference for making a justifiable comparison 👍

 

[The Outlaw]

Sorry for the double post.

Don't worry ///M-Spec, I'm more than happy with my 10 y/o Porsche, whatever TA thinks of it

Anyhow, on to more interesting points...

From Autocar, 4th November 2009, Focus RS v Scirocco R v 370Z
First impressions tend to last in the Nissan's case because, on the move, it has a rough and ready side to it's personality above which, once again, the VW elevates itself. As does the Focus RS.

Even when your bumbling around at 40mph, the Nissan is noisier and busier than its rivals. It's V6 engine produces a charismatic V6 blast when you fire it up, and it's a theme that continues when you move away; on the road the Nissan immediately feels gutsy and sounds big-hearted. But there's also a peculiarly harsh quality to the way the engine behaves that, even in isolation, is not especially pleasant to experience.

And compared with the smooth, amazingly potent engine in the Focus and the even more cultured powerplant of the VW, the Nissan's motor and transmission feel doubly unrefined.

This would be more acceptable were the 370Z capable of dispatching the front drivers in to the undergrowth with a greater level of performance, but unfortunately it can't do that either. In reality it's all too easy to get caught with not enough revs dialled in, at which point the extra torque and mid range of the Ford and VW makes a big difference in a very short space of time.

If you're not concentrating, the 370Z can get dropped by the others in a hearbeat, and that's before you come to any corners, when things get worse for the Nissan by comparison.

If anything, it's the Scirocco that exposes the 370's flaws, more so than the RS, mainly because the Scirocco is so undramatic in the the way it goer about dismantling a tricky piece of road. The Scirocco's chassis is not only beautifully judged, but getting the best out of it requires much less effort than in the Nissan.

As a result, you can end up driving the VW at what feels like nothing more than a mild canter, only to casually look in the rear view mirror and see the eyes of the 370Z driver bulging.

Snip...

When you're right in the zone with the RS, there's nothing the 370Z can do to touch it, either subjectively or objectively. The Focus is much more fun to drive and so much faster across the ground that the Nissan doesn't get a look in by comparision.

Rest of the test focuses on the RS v R, with the R coming out on top as the better all round proposition.

From CAR magazine, issue 568, November 2009, PCOTY issue
Synchro Rev Control. If the 370Z virgins went away with one memory of the Nissan it was the brilliantly simple but effective rev-matching software that makes you feel dextrous as a professional racing driver with every downchange.

But one smart gadget isn't enough to lift the Z on to an even keel with the big boys for enjoyment. Odd as it might seem, while capable of some quick times, the Z isn't as enjoyable on track as you'd expect a brawny coupe delivering 320bhp to the rear wheels to be. The steering is ludicrously heavy and, far from being an oversteering monster, the Nissan just doesn't have enough torque to overcome it's traction.

And that wouldn't be a problem if it felt as lithe as the Caymen or as eager to switch tack as the Evora. It is entertaining, but it can't match it's rivals' poise thanks to an extra 200kg of flab.

It feel stiff legged over the tough moorland roads and the retro NVH levels are wearing.

From EVO magazine, issue 138, November 2009, COTY issue
On why the 370Z didn't even make the competition....

There's lots to like about the thoroughly re-worked 370Z, including its hunkier looks and clever automatic throttle blip. However, the more powerful engine has gone backwards in terms of refinement, sounding quite course in the mid-range, and the handling is less clean and decisive. Two steps forward....


True definition of a sportscar... LMFAO

Mag Jargon. Go drive one yourself, then you can come back and talk to me. The 370Z is a true sportscars regardless of where it ended up in that rather meaningless test with the Scirocco R and Focus RS. It might not be the purest or best sports car around, but it's definitely to be classified as a sportscar...much more so than the V6 Mustang which was the more important point I was trying to make originally. And without a doubt one of the best value sports cars out there. Yea the Cayman and Evora or overall superior in most peoples eyes...but you can buy nearly 2 370Z's for the price of a nicely equipped Cayman S, and base Evora. And yea, for most people price is a big consideration in the current economy. Because if I was looking to spend $70-80k+ on a car I certainly wouldn't consider an overpriced Cayman S or Evora, as they are great cars but far from being the best values around.

The Autocar comparison like I said was a test that was arranged to clearly put the Scirocco and Focus RS at the top. The type of road suited those small, stable FWD'ers extremely well. A Z06 or M3 wouldn't have done spectacularly on such a road either....so the test is really doesn't hold much validity except for in that particular scenario.

 

[///M-Spec]

This doesn't change the fact that the solid axle still can't isolate a bump affecting one wheel, without having some affect on the other end of the axle.

My question was purely rhetorical, since I'm not aware of any way to fix what is a fundamental design limitation either. But I'm always willing to listen and possibly learn something new.

Well maybe he should give his comments a break...since who is he to speak when you want to get down to it? Most Porsche owners don't have a fair opinion when comparing cars without having some sort of hidden bias toward the badge or heritage of the car/maker or anything else that doesn't directly affect the performance of the car.

Don't you think your assumption about Porsche owners itself is a little unfair?

I've seen bias (from the subtle and manipulative type you speak of- to full blown hardcore flag waving brand jingoism), from pretty much every type of car owner. It annoys the hell out of me too. But its not just isolated to the p-car guys/gals.

I could perfectly understand your response if Stotty had started comparing the cars to his 996 (or to any Porsche for that matter). But the fact is he hasn't. He hasn't even hinted at it. Honestly, I think you're just flat jumping the gun on this one.

I think it's great that you pride yourself on being objective and unbiased when comparing cars 👍 There's not enough of that on forums these days. But I think you should extend that sense of fairness to car owners, as well.


M

 

[Stotty]

Mag Jargon.

Because of course you know better than some of the most respected and experienced motoring journolists in the World now, don't you.


And just to be absolutely clear... go do a search on my posts... I'm pretty sure I've never displayed any Porsche bias in any of my forum posts.

 

[CodeRedR51]

I admit that it is heavy, but how many of the buyers who are looking to buy a rebuilt piece of their youth or childhood, will pay attention to numbers?

Not very many. But, your Camaro fans and/or previous owners will likely stay with that car, as will the fans/previous owners of classic Mustangs. Having owned neither one of them, I can say that I would base my purchasing decision solely on looks because that's just the way I usually am. So the Mustang it is for me. I personally love the look of the 2010's.

 

[NissanSkylineN1]

A bit late telling me the exact details of this new engine since my dad has now been convinced by some of you that a V6 'Stang is a girl's car.

 

[McLaren]

A bit late telling me the exact details of this new engine since my dad has now been convinced by some of you that a V6 'Stang is a girl's car.

It is a girl's car.







Tell your pop the Shelby's where it's at.

 

[Spencer]

Tell your pop the Shelby's where it's at.

No doubt there.

 

[Tornado]

It is a girl's car. It is just one that I would be fine with owning for myself.

 

[buickgnx88]

It's only a girl's car if it has a fuzzy steering wheel cover and several leis hanging from the rearview mirror.

 

[The Outlaw]

Because of course you know better than some of the most respected and experienced motoring journolists in the World now, don't you.


And just to be absolutely clear... go do a search on my posts... I'm pretty sure I've never displayed any Porsche bias in any of my forum posts.

Comparing a Focus RS and Scirocco R to a 370Z in a 3-way test (when the Z is in a COMPLETELY different class/category) IS MAG JARGON, anyway you want to cut it. Especially when the testing conditions in this particular rag review were CLEARLY suited and set-up to favor the Focus' and Scirocco's performance characteristics.

Why didn't they take it to a real circuit where the Z would actually been in its element, where it often beats the Cayman S by a few tenths of a second per lap? Because it would have been no contest when the Z whooped them by several seconds a lap with a more pleasurable experience on a REAL circuit...and everyone would haven been left asking, what was the point of this review? We knew that was going to happen...duh.

It's just a case of another magazine trying to hype something up by doing some senseless, narrow minded review to fool and intrigue the readers 👎

And these magazine journalist/publications are often paid by manufacturers and companies to put in a good word...not to mention the journalist are also often biased themselves. To believe everything that comes out of their mouths isn't as trustworthy as driving and experiencing one for YOURSELF.

BTW, I had no problem with the last two articles you posted. The first one is just ridiculous, unless you're trying to take a stab at the Z to make it look bad when it's clearly out of its element and the other two are at right at home 👎

Lastly, I would rather call your bias a touch of elitism when it comes to fairly judging and critiquing cars. When you said this (quote below) you basically implied that what you have to compare to the 370Z, a 996 Carrera, is obviously superior to the Z, and you'd hate to imagine how bad the Mustang is when I said it is a lesser sports car than the Z. If that's not a subliminal sign of superiority/elitism, when you have no experience driving either Z or Mustang I don't know what is Just calling it like I see it.

Autocar recently ran a 370Z against a Focus RS and a Scirocco R... the Z came last by a mile. Despite having more absolute power and a higher power to weight ratio than either the Ford or the VW, the Z struggled to even keep up on mixed roads.

If the Z is that much better than a Mustang I hate to think how bad the Mustang must be

My question was purely rhetorical, since I'm not aware of any way to fix what is a fundamental design limitation either. But I'm always willing to listen and possibly learn something new.



Don't you think your assumption about Porsche owners itself is a little unfair?

It's not really an assumption, nor am I saying all Porsche owners are biased or have an elitist mentality. I will say in my experiences there are definitely MORE Porsche owners (than owners of other marques) who have such a mentality, but also of course to a drastically varying degree. Some are full blown, some subliminal as you mentioned.


I've seen bias (from the subtle and manipulative type you speak of- to full blown hardcore flag waving brand jingoism), from pretty much every type of car owner. It annoys the hell out of me too. But its not just isolated to the p-car guys/gals.

Again I agree. But in my experiences (quite a few to say the least) I've found the Porsche guys to be the worst and most common of this elistist train of thought, especially once the GT-R was released and a lot of them really became insecure to the fact that the GT-R was so hyped up to be the "Turbo Killer".

I used to post a bunch on NAGTROC as well as 6speedonline and was in full view to a lot this crap on both sides, often with intruders who would come in running their mouths because they couldn't control their elitist fanboy views. The only problem is that this elitist mentality has worn off a lot on the GT-R owners who used to go back and forth bickering...blah blah "it's just a no good pos Datsun! So, I rather have a Datsun than your overpriced outdated VW bettle!" etc, etc.

Even the Porsche fanboys who drove a loley 99 Boxster would try and jump in and take a shot thinking they had some type of opinion that actually meant something like: "It's still a Nissan, it will never be as good as a Porsche" They were just complete wannabes disillusioned by the badge placed on the hood of their car and what it portrayed. Not saying Stotty is ANYWHERE near to this degree, but his statement shows a touch of superiority when judging other cars...which I don't think it is fair nor justified given the fact that he has never driven either Mustang or 370Z.

I could perfectly understand your response if Stotty had started comparing the cars to his 996 (or to any Porsche for that matter). But the fact is he hasn't. He hasn't even hinted at it. Honestly, I think you're just flat jumping the gun on this one.

Read my response to him above and you'll see what I'm getting at

I think it's great that you pride yourself on being objective and unbiased when comparing cars 👍 There's not enough of that on forums these days. But I think you should extend that sense of fairness to car owners, as well.

I try my best to be fair to everything and everyone. When I do see bias, when it's not really justified, I certainly do get a bit upset though

M

 

[ExigeEvan]

Comparing a Focus RS and Scirocco R to a 370Z in a 3-way test (when the Z is in a COMPLETELY different class/category) IS MAG JARGON, anyway you want to cut it. Especially when the testing conditions in this particular rag review were CLEARLY suited and set-up to favor the Focus' and Scirocco's performance characteristics.

It's very simple really.

In the UK all 3 cars are approx the same price.
They're all road cars, driven on the road.
Roads in the UK generally aren't big, smooth and straight.

Why didn't they take it to a real circuit where the Z would actually been in its element,

Um, no. The Z is a road-car, it's not even a track-derived road car. And compared to a track car it's weaknesses would be shown, so it's blatantly not "in its element" on a track.


I'm not saying this because I have any judgement on any of these cars. I'm 19, I drive a Almera for christ sake, but you're more than happy to shoot down the opinion of others to be bias, unfounded or irrelevant and insist yours is the gold standard. Opinion is opinion, until it becomes fact it is there to be discussed.

 

[The Outlaw]

It's very simple really.

In the UK all 3 cars are approx the same price.
They're all road cars, driven on the road.
Roads in the UK generally aren't big, smooth and straight.

I agree to an extent. But the point is - this test only shows one aspect of each cars performance preferences and abilities in a given setting. To dismiss the abilities of the 370Z (as Stotty did) simply because it lost in this one sided test that wasn't suited to the Z is not fair or all that meaningful.

And as far as I'm concerned this review is still a bit rubbish, with one goal in mind, to make the Z look bad. Because in all honesty I can't imagine many folks cross shopping between a Ford Focus RS/Scirocco R and a 370Z. A much more realistic entrant in place of the Z, especially on this particular road with one goal in mind would be a Subaru WRX/STi, Mitsubishi Evolution, or Mazda Speed 3. The Focus and Scirocco are aimed more toward the younger, racier crowd while the Z is aimed for the more mature folks looking for a classy sports car...not a car that will get them from point A to B in the shortest amount of time for the least amount of money.



Um, no. The Z is a road-car, it's not even a track-derived road car. And compared to a track car it's weaknesses would be shown, so it's blatantly not "in its element" on a track.

You miss the point. It CAN be tracked and it would out perform either Scirocco or Focus on a traditional circuit. Taking your Z to the track is just as feasible as illegally racing down the road at full speed putting peoples lives in danger.

I'm not saying this because I have any judgement on any of these cars. I'm 19, I drive a Almera for christ sake, but you're more than happy to shoot down the opinion of others to be bias, unfounded or irrelevant and insist yours is the gold standard. Opinion is opinion, until it becomes fact it is there to be discussed.

All I'll say is that it's easy to miss the BIGGER point of the argument when you've jumped in a bit to late to add your 2 cents.

...

 

[YSSMAN]

It is a girl's car. It is just one that I would be fine with owning for myself.

Same here. Ford has the mix right in much the same way that GM does with the V6 RS Camaro. Assuming that they offer a well-sorted suspension option with a decent set of tires, there really isn't much of a reason to count out the Mustang V6 as a reasonable option for any kind of sports coupe shopping. Get the price right and I'm in.

Maybe.

I still like the Camaro better. Old habits die hard.

 

[Stotty]

Comparing a Focus RS and Scirocco R to a 370Z in a 3-way test (when the Z is in a COMPLETELY different class/category) IS MAG JARGON, anyway you want to cut it. Especially when the testing conditions in this particular rag review were CLEARLY suited and set-up to favor the Focus' and Scirocco's performance characteristics.

Why didn't they take it to a real circuit where the Z would actually been in its element, where it often beats the Cayman S by a few tenths of a second per lap? Because it would have been no contest when the Z whooped them by several seconds a lap with a more pleasurable experience on a REAL circuit...and everyone would haven been left asking, what was the point of this review? We knew that was going to happen...duh.

It's just a case of another magazine trying to hype something up by doing some senseless, narrow minded review to fool and intrigue the readers 👎

And these magazine journalist/publications are often paid by manufacturers and companies to put in a good word...not to mention the journalist are also often biased themselves. To believe everything that comes out of their mouths isn't as trustworthy as driving and experiencing one for YOURSELF.

BTW, I had no problem with the last two articles you posted. The first one is just ridiculous, unless you're trying to take a stab at the Z to make it look bad when it's clearly out of its element and the other two are at right at home 👎

Lastly, I would rather call your bias a touch of elitism when it comes to fairly judging and critiquing cars. When you said this (quote below) you basically implied that what you have to compare to the 370Z, a 996 Carrera, is obviously superior to the Z, and you'd hate to imagine how bad the Mustang is when I said it is a lesser sports car than the Z. If that's not a subliminal sign of superiority/elitism, when you have no experience driving either Z or Mustang I don't know what is Just calling it like I see it.

The Autocar test was primarily a first road test of the Scirocco R. The Focus RS and 370Z were brought along to provide perspective and to show a couple of alternative options at a similar price point... The bits I quoted made up about 20% of the full article... the rest focused on the either the Scirocco alone or the Scirocco v Focus RS differences.

Is it a direct competitor for the other two cars? Well the base 370Z is sold for very similar money to the Focus RS and Scirocco R, and the on-paper performance levels are similar... makes it a viable competitor in my book. In any case, I&#8217;m not sure how you can call the 370Z 'mature' and 'classy', and then call out its natural competitors as the Impreza and Evo. Those are 2 of the least 'classy' or &#8216;mature&#8217; cars on the market and, in the UK at least, are generally driven by chavs (look chav up on Google as it's too difficult to explain in a few words).

The test wasn&#8217;t &#8216;fixed&#8217; to show up the 370Z, it was carried out on typical British roads, where the drivers of these cars will spend 99.9% of their time. Track driving and ultimate lap times are both pretty much irrelevant for the vast majority of owners... even if they do take their car on the track it will still make up only a tiny percentage of the total time they spend behind the wheel.

Autocar is a highly respected publication - one of the oldest motoring publications in the World. Some of its journalists have lengthy racing experience - Steve Sutcliff for example, drove a Honda F1 car at Silverstone a couple of years ago and turned lap times comparable to the Honda test driver on the day.

I quoted 3 separate publications, all of whom said pretty much the same thing... the Autocar article was more in depth, so the quantity and quality of input was higher. To say one journalist may be biased is one thing... to say 3 separate publications are all biased in a similar direction is patently short-sighted on your behalf.

Fair comment to say 'go drive one'... I haven't, though I have driven a 350Z. However, when it comes to trusting peoples view points on cars I haven&#8217;t driven, I'm far more inclined to believe a whole host of respected motoring writers than I am to trust yours.


And finally, the matter of bias and elitism...

My posts throughout the various motoring threads are objective and based on either solid personal experience or a data point in which I have a high level of trust

At no stage did I compare anything to a Porsche in any way or even insinuate that either the 370Z or the Mustang were inferior to any cars other than a couple of European FWD turbo hatches... you can choose to interpret my post to suit yourself if you wish.

 

[Tornado]

In any case, I’m not sure how you can call the 370Z 'mature' and 'classy', and then call out its natural competitors as the Impreza and Evo. Those are 2 of the least 'classy' or ‘mature’ cars on the market and, in the UK at least, are generally driven by chavs (look chav up on Google as it's too difficult to explain in a few words).

Actually, I think he was referring to the Evo and STi being better competitors for the Focus. I still disagree with him, but I see where he is coming from on that.

 

[The Outlaw]

The Autocar test was primarily a first road test of the Scirocco R. The Focus RS and 370Z were brought along to provide perspective and to show a couple of alternative options at a similar price point... The bits I quoted made up about 20% of the full article... the rest focused on the either the Scirocco alone or the Scirocco v Focus RS differences.

Is it a direct competitor for the other two cars? Well the base 370Z is sold for very similar money to the Focus RS and Scirocco R, and the on-paper performance levels are similar... makes it a viable competitor in my book. In any case, I&#8217;m not sure how you can call the 370Z 'mature' and 'classy', and then call out its natural competitors as the Impreza and Evo. Those are 2 of the least 'classy' or &#8216;mature&#8217; cars on the market and, in the UK at least, are generally driven by chavs (look chav up on Google as it's too difficult to explain in a few words).

When did I say the 370Z's natural competitors were the Impreza and Evo? I said they would have been better entrants in place of the Z! The Impreza, Evo, or Mazdaspeed 3 would have realistically been much better competition for the Focus and Scirocco, rather than randomly throwing in the Z in this test with one goal in mind - going as fast as possible from point A to B down a back road. Going into this test I'm SURE they damn well knew what cars were suited to these testing conditions best, yet they still managed to leave out the Evo, Impreza, Mazdaspeed3 which are much more inline competitors with the Focus/Scirroco and are meant for those narrow rally roads to get you from point A to B quickly.

It's kind of like comparing a Cayman S to a GT-R. They're two totally different cars with different purposes, but for the same price, and still considered to be high end sports cars. One sacrifices raw speed for a bit of luxury and class, while the GT-R is on the other spectrum. I guess you would be perfectly fine if they did that comparison as well? Maybe on a snow covered road as well? Since it does snow here in Finland quite often and it would still be a realistic and fair "give me the bottom line" comparison

The test wasn&#8217;t &#8216;fixed&#8217; to show up the 370Z, it was carried out on typical British roads, where the drivers of these cars will spend 99.9% of their time. Track driving and ultimate lap times are both pretty much irrelevant for the vast majority of owners... even if they do take their car on the track it will still make up only a tiny percentage of the total time they spend behind the wheel.

That's not my point. Going back to the original argument when you made your basis of the Z as hardly being a sports car judging by this narrow focused test. It's easy to pick and choose results to take a stab at a car as you did. If you want to pass judgment on the legitimacy of a sports car by how quickly and enjoyably it goes down a backroad....well then, you have a lot of ubber expensive sports car that would look like crap next to the Scirocco and Focus as well. But does how quickly it can go down a back road really define it as a sports car? That is my question to you.

Autocar is a highly respected publication - one of the oldest motoring publications in the World. Some of its journalists have lengthy racing experience - Steve Sutcliff for example, drove a Honda F1 car at Silverstone a couple of years ago and turned lap times comparable to the Honda test driver on the day.

Not sure what that has to with anything, but ok. Well respected publications here in the US are paid off by Manufacturers to show bias etc...which is probably the best forms of marketing you can do when you get down to it. I'm just saying that you can't believe everything you read in magazines as you seem to do.


I quoted 3 separate publications, all of whom said pretty much the same thing... the Autocar article was more in depth, so the quantity and quality of input was higher. To say one journalist may be biased is one thing... to say 3 separate publications are all biased in a similar direction is patently short-sighted on your behalf.

If you had read what I commented on you would have noticed that I said the last two articles you posted were much more legitimate. More so in their overall testing procedure and what they put the Z up against (classy two door, two seater RWD sports cars). The Z isn't on the level of the Cayman S and Evora...no argument from me there, and I agree with SOME of their gripes about the Z.

Fair comment to say 'go drive one'... I haven't, though I have driven a 350Z. However, when it comes to trusting peoples view points on cars I haven&#8217;t driven, I'm far more inclined to believe a whole host of respected motoring writers than I am to trust yours.

I have no problem with that 👍 I just think to pass judgment on the Z when it lost out to the Focus RS/ Scirroco in this narrow focused test, is a bit short sided to say the least...which is the whole point I'm trying to make.

Basically you jumped in trying to make the Z look bad using that article which has such a limited range of testing. I mean they could have placed a E92 M3 or Cayman S in place of the Z and the same thing would have likely happened. Would you have been saying the same thing then??? I hope so, otherwise you're just being biased.

And finally, the matter of bias and elitism...

My posts throughout the various motoring threads are objective and based on either solid personal experience or a data point in which I have a high level of trust

At no stage did I compare anything to a Porsche in any way or even insinuate that either the 370Z or the Mustang were inferior to any cars other than a couple of European FWD turbo hatches... you can choose to interpret my post to suit yourself if you wish.

AGAIN, your words that I quoted showed otherwise. Maybe you didn't mean to come off that way, but if you look at what you said closely, it's clear that you were looking through the window with a superior view point that was a bit jaded to say the least.

To remind you, here is what you said: "Autocar recently ran a 370Z against a Focus RS and a Scirocco R... the Z came last by a mile. Despite having more absolute power and a higher power to weight ratio than either the Ford or the VW, the Z struggled to even keep up on mixed roads.

If the Z is that much better than a Mustang I hate to think how bad the Mustang must be"

Look at the underlined text. First of all you've never driven ANY of these cars, yet you're trying to IMAGINE how bad the Z and Mustang would be, BASED ON WHAT? You must be basing it on what you have in your garage...that's the only thing I can come to reason. It might help to watch the way you write next time.

...

 

[Stotty]

I surrender. You're cearly right.

 

[The Outlaw]

No hard feelings mate I just thought your comment (which started the whole argument) was a bit unfair. But at least you have the honor to admit so 👍

 

[Stotty]

You really don't get sarcasm do you?

 

[The Outlaw]

Not when there's ABSOLUTELY NO sign of it You still obviously can't comprehend what you wrote I see

I got things to do...I'll bb later.

 

[buickgnx88]

Jeepers creepers, enough with the damned arguing about a car that isn't the Mustang which this thread is about!

 

[Omnis]

Responding within the quote is kind of hard to read. Break the quote if you want to respond piece by piece.

 

[///M-Spec]

I agree with you that the magazine test in question does raise an eyebrow or two.

But this....

You must be basing it on what you have in your garage...that's the only thing I can come to reason. It might help to watch the way you write next time.

I'm simply not buying it.

Here is Stotty's reasoning:

D > A
E > A
A > B

Therefore, the conclusions one could draw are...

D > B
E > B

But somehow you THINK he is drawing this conclusion:

Z > B

Even though Z is never mentioned. Nor implied.

You are jumping to conclusions and personally, I think you're allowing your past negative experiences with other Porsche owners to unfairly influence your interaction with this one. You are failing to differentiate him from all the other Porsche owners you've talked to because you assume they are all alike. They're not.

I think it's time to let it go.

Responding within the quote is kind of hard to read. Break the quote if you want to respond piece by piece.

+1. Please make your responses outside the quotes, timeattack. Thanks.


M

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Thanks for the correction 👍 That's what I get for not reading the article I just for some reason assumed they were using the ecoboost for the V6 model And being that it's NA makes it even less appealing to me due to the limited modification versus a twin turbo engine.

Considering the turbos used on the Ecoboost V6 are near as makes no difference ATV turbos, they're going to need to be replaced no matter what, most likely the same for the manifolds, intake plumbing, intercooler(s?), etc.

Oh and they're direct injection which is apparently a bit of a bear to tune or upgrade fuel delivery with. So you may as well start NA.

 

[Tornado]

Jeepers creepers, enough with the damned arguing about a car that isn't the Mustang which this thread is about!

I think Mustang is a pretty cool guy. eh haz 305 hp and doesn't afraid of anything.


I do think it would be pretty nifty if we had some EcoBoost in here, but I can see why Ford won't bother. I mean, now that the base Mustang has so much more MPG, it isn't like it is necessary for an EcoBoost 4; and if they can hook the new V8 up to the new 6-speeds it should get pretty good mileage too, so the Flex engine isn't needed. Is the 4.6 getting the 6-speeds as well? I didn't see anything in the press release stating so.

 

[Omnis]

If they're so worried about ecoboost creeping up on the GT, they could always, you know, give the GT an ecoboost 8. ... Just saying.

 

[buickgnx88]

I think Mustang is a pretty cool guy. eh haz 305 hp and doesn't afraid of anything.

You say don't? I've never met the man. Right you are then!