Forza Motorsport 4 - General Discussion

  • Thread starter Thread starter Mr Latte
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What Version Do You Intend To Buy

  • Limited Collectors Edition

    Votes: 224 68.3%
  • Standard Edition

    Votes: 61 18.6%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 43 13.1%

  • Total voters
    328
What I'm saying is that in most racing games including Forza, there is almost no difference between finishing 2nd and finishing 13th. That is what I'm talking about. If you see no problem about it then fine, different opinions. But my point still stands.
 
HBK
What I'm saying is that in most racing games including Forza, there is almost no difference between finishing 2nd and finishing 13th. That is what I'm talking about. If you see no problem about it then fine, different opinions. But my point still stands.
You get more money if you finish in a higher position. The great thing about Forza is that even if you are in last place, you still get money. :sly:

I am currently trying to get throught F3 Season Career before F4 comes out.
 
Let me rephrase it. There is little difference between finishing second and finishing last, whereas there is a huge difference between finishing first and finishing second.

Like JJ72 said, I'm getting tired of this paradigm.
 
I assume you've got a broadband internet connection. If you really wanna catch up on TopGear, and I'd recommend you to do just that (the British one, that is), I'd suggest FinalGear. You can download basically all the episodes there, the recent ones are available in high def, too.

You gotta catch the lates one, episode 6 of season 17. Aventador :drool:

Pfft...not sure if you saw the new show called "The Car Show" on the Speed Channel. MUCH better than Top Gear UK and Top Gear USA.

HBK
What I'm saying is that in most racing games including Forza, there is almost no difference between finishing 2nd and finishing 13th. That is what I'm talking about. If you see no problem about it then fine, different opinions. But my point still stands.

Well if that is what you are saying, then that is fine. But you didn't say that. You just said that you HAVE to be in first in every single race to win the events/championships, which you don't.
 
HBK
What I'm saying is that in most racing games including Forza, there is almost no difference between finishing 2nd and finishing 13th. That is what I'm talking about. If you see no problem about it then fine, different opinions. But my point still stands.

I still don't see how your point stands. You get more credits and xp for how you finish the race, and you get more the harder you make the game by upping the AI difficulty and turning off assists. Finishing 1st place with all assists off on AI hard should give you the max winnings, and finishing last with assists on and AI easy should give you the least.
 
lemme try to explain.

In FM3 you get a gold medal when you win a series, and I think most of us will want to have it all gold instead of having some gold and some silver, it doesn't feel you have finished it until you win it all.

While in Shift 2 you finished a series by just being on the podium, there's no graphical indicator saying you have finished first or second in the menus(just a matter of fact best position achieved), and added that races in shift 2 are much harder faught I am much more contempt to just finish second or third, and not have the a "I must have this race perfected before moving on" mentality.

It may not be a huge difference to some but for me, there are differences in the philosophy.
 
HBK
Let me rephrase it. There is little difference between finishing second and finishing last, whereas there is a huge difference between finishing first and finishing second.
I don't get that at all. Tell that to Nascar driver or drivers of any league that has championship standings for that matter. 2nd place is considered a good run. Last is not.
 
Pfft...not sure if you saw the new show called "The Car Show" on the Speed Channel. MUCH better than Top Gear UK and Top Gear USA.
So far, no. Didn't hear much about it, but I might check it out.

HBK
Let me rephrase it. There is little difference between finishing second and finishing last, whereas there is a huge difference between finishing first and finishing second.

Like JJ72 said, I'm getting tired of this paradigm.
That's a paradigm that's basically everywhere in the world of gaming. You don't play Tetris to finish the fourth level and you don't play GTA to end up as a small criminal.

Most people play games to win, not to place second or third, no matter how realisitic that would be. You'd have to change most people's mindset before that becomes a popular choice for developers, I think. That's what I got from being aroudn gamers for a few years now.
 
America. lol. Well there isn't a HD BBC channel over here so that kinda rules out the possibility of catching the show for me. I only stay in the HD channel range ;). Alot of people don't know about the show over here.
But I've been catching youtubes of it for a while now. When I say I'm just now getting into it I don't mean like last week. lol

Hehehe kinda figured you were american. 👍

Clarkson Island..in the World.
 
I don't get that at all. Tell that to Nascar driver or drivers of any league that has championship standings for that matter. 2nd place is considered a good run. Last is not.
I was talking about Forza, or racing games in general.

Edit: Just to make it clear: In real life, coming out second is an accomplishment one can be proud of. In racing games, not so much. I'm talking about SP of course. And yes, I have a problem about that.
 
HBK
I was talking about Forza, or racing games in general.

Edit: Just to make it clear: In real life, coming out second is an accomplishment one can be proud of. In racing games, not so much. I'm talking about SP of course. And yes, I have a problem about that.

I guess I see what you mean as far as single player modes go. Im still pretty satisfied with 2nd in online racing though.
 
Yeah, online is fine of course, even if I think less discrepancy regarding the winnings would be welcome.
 
...

That's a paradigm that's basically everywhere in the world of gaming. You don't play Tetris to finish the fourth level and you don't play GTA to end up as a small criminal.

Most people play games to win, not to place second or third, no matter how realisitic that would be. You'd have to change most people's mindset before that becomes a popular choice for developers, I think. That's what I got from being aroudn gamers for a few years now.

If we take "win" in its somewhat more "meta" internet meaning, yes. "Winning" can be as simple as running hotlaps, collecting and tuning cars, racing online, taking photos, just going for a drive etc. I think most people play games for diversion, and the better that diversion, the better the sense of "winning".

In GTAIV, I'm happiest just trundling about the place, waiting for something funny to happen (it rarely takes long). That's true of every GTA game I've ever played. Then again, the game is geared that way.

In these racing games, it's far too easy just to turn up to a race and annihilate the competition, either because they suck, or because your car is "a bazooka". Moreover, we're less likely to err on the side of balance, and will invariably add "just a few more horsepower" to the car, just in case.
Having (much) stricter limits on races would alleviate that, and allowing qualifying will help tighten things up again. Setting everything up so that the races can only be won with serious gear (may require a rethink of upgrades) will mean people would have to come back when they have more money and / or better cars. It would also mean better management of cash, prolonging that strategy element we get when "just starting out".
Putting the focus on scoring points as opposed to winning everything would help, too, if you make it all league-based for example. That way, knowing your strengths and being consistent are key; and trying to beat your nearest rivals can be seriously compelling. Almost nobody wins on their first outing in the real world, and there is no shame in that!

Of course, some people won't like this, either because they'd much rather be guaranteed a win (casual / progression / unlocks / achievements!) or because they're not fast enough. That's fine, allow us to scale the AI accordingly and make qualifying optional. You could even set "bonus restrictions" where, if you conform to some other sub-set of rules, you win something cool, like a random car / parts / moar moneys, irrespective of placing. Or you could retain a "classic" mode for those that would bypass all of this stuff...
 
Of course, some people won't like this, either because they'd much rather be guaranteed a win (casual / progression / unlocks / achievements!) or because they're not fast enough. That's fine, allow us to scale the AI accordingly and make qualifying optional. You could even set "bonus restrictions" where, if you conform to some other sub-set of rules, you win something cool, like a random car / parts / moar moneys, irrespective of placing. Or you could retain a "classic" mode for those that would bypass all of this stuff...
I'll keep this short, because it's really getting late :lol:

First off, I actually aggree with you. I, personally, want a challenging AI and a game that doesn't hand everything to me just like that. I like being challenged and being rewarded for overcoming a challenge.

However, as you mentioned yourself (in the bolded part), there are people who don't like that. And, from my experience, those are the guys that make up a large chunk of the sales of, well, any game, nowadays. All a game that was actually challenging (especially if it was challenging to the likes of us, who are, without a doubt, above average) would achieve would be a lot of grieve by a large part of its audience. That, in my opinion, is why 99% games are so easy in this day and age. Plus, another thing I'd like to put out there: Average Joe doesn't want to play on "easy". He doesn't want to play on "medium", either. He wants to play on "hard", because no matter what, he'd rather complain to the developers than accept that he doesn't have what it takes to beat the game. I know, it's a bit of a "that's why we can't have nnice things" rant, but I actually feel that way.
 
I'll keep this short, because it's really getting late :lol:

First off, I actually aggree with you. I, personally, want a challenging AI and a game that doesn't hand everything to me just like that. I like being challenged and being rewarded for overcoming a challenge.

However, as you mentioned yourself (in the bolded part), there are people who don't like that. And, from my experience, those are the guys that make up a large chunk of the sales of, well, any game, nowadays. All a game that was actually challenging (especially if it was challenging to the likes of us, who are, without a doubt, above average) would achieve would be a lot of grieve by a large part of its audience. That, in my opinion, is why 99% games are so easy in this day and age. Plus, another thing I'd like to put out there: Average Joe doesn't want to play on "easy". He doesn't want to play on "medium", either. He wants to play on "hard", because no matter what, he'd rather complain to the developers than accept that he doesn't have what it takes to beat the game. I know, it's a bit of a "that's why we can't have nnice things" rant, but I actually feel that way.

I agree!

I see this as a (software) generational thing, personally. I grew up with games that made no bones about kicking you in the balls, and you had to man up and deal with it in order to progress. Even then, there were exceptional games which got a reputation for being utter bastards! Those sorts of games simply aren't fashionable anymore; well, not in the same way at least.
Of course, back then there were fewer big releases, much less money involved and a completely different demographic of people who had the equipment to play games. (Not to mention the social stigma.)

So now we're stuck in this vicious cycle where nobody wants to break with modern "tradition" for fear of criticism. Because nobody wants to do this, games will continue to suffer the same problems. Frankly, if people can't play a game on "hard", they need to deal with that themselves and accept that they have work to do regarding their skills. It's like going to McDonald's and not being allowed to order a "small" anything - it's just a label, it's pathetic.

I don't see the need to dress it up to boost people's egos for no good reason - you mentioned Tetris earlier; I suck at Tetris. Naturally, my first response would be to say "the game sucks" but that's just normal human behaviour, and I know that it's really just me, if I were to be honest about it. It's also like the "X-Factor effect": if everybody tells them they're amazing right up to the big judges, no wonder they're crushed when they hear the cold reality.
Games today are trying to cater for everyone in their marketing; "we have casual features, but we've got some hardcore stuff for those that want it" this is absolutely fine, and is a must now for most big budget games. But we've often seen the reality of what actually goes into the game, and the "hardcore" side often disappoints. Granted, this is usually because there are a million and one different types of hardcore.

This is why, I think, discrete intervals of difficulty are pointless, outside of the recognition factor and "ease of use". I've been playing through Doom again recently (a game I used to "have to" play on "God Mode") and it has five difficulty settings, which I would arbitrarily regard as a minimum. Doom does it the hard way, though, with "hard-coded" differences such as the numbers and types of monsters in each map, with only the opposite extremes changing damage, monster speed and respawn and ammo abundance (just numbers).
In a racing game, you can have a slider for AI speed (in fact, that's how it's done on most PC sims, although the ranges are often inadequate). Sure, you can leave easy / medium / hard etc. as presets, but also allow for custom settings! It's not like the AI only exist in discrete intervals of pace, since I'm sure their raw speed can be represented by (a handful of, non-integer) numbers rather than mere descriptive terms etc. Of course, there are potential balance issues that can arise, but I don't see how that's any different to the "critic's" skill level being completely mis-matched (either way) to the game anyway...

I could go on for days about this, in my typically incoherent manner, but to do so would mean I'd be better off designing my own game, which is a road I'd best stay away from lest I become obsessed. That's a great idea for monks, actually - I'd bet they could make kick-ass games, like their beer! :dopey:
 
Generally a "Racing Game" should offer actual "Racing" :)

Being able to burn off at least 3-5 AI on the start is a problem for many racing games as well. If Mario Kart can make its AI fast enough T10 should be able to as well. Furthermore AI for shooting games has developed greatly over the years but the same doesn't seem to of happened for the racing genre.

If a racing game appeared looking like "Pole Position" but had superb "new benchmark" AI I guess it would be an instant hit.
Speaking of which I wonder what racing game people here will remember as having the best or most challenging AI on a console?
 
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Excellent post there, Griffith! I'm always under the impression that, nowadays, you could only "cheat" a high difficulty setting into a game by naming it in a way that'd make it seem undesirable to play the game that way. For example, place the ahrdest difficulty right next to "easy" and call it "nerdy" or something :dopey:

Gotta say, though, I'm in the same boat as you are. Most games leave me asking "What? that's it?!" On the other hand, some retro games feel pretty challenging in comparison. I've started playing Sonic the Hedghehog 3 and Knuckles lately, and while not extremely difficult, it sure gives me an idea of why modern games seem so easy to me. Of course, there are always games that seem difficult to me, because I just don't have the skills and don't bother to get them (beat'em ups would be a prime example, in my case). But the last (modern) game which I enjoyed, had some experience/skill with and that still put me thoroughly through my paces was probably Devil May Cry 3, especially thanks to the increased difficulty for the NA and EU market.

Anyways, I think some developers are having the right idea: Adaptable AI. With no way to influence the AI's performance other than your own performance, one could create a game that was challenging for everyone. Just make it so that, the faster you getm the more of a challenge tha AI becomes. Most casual players that don't want a challenging AI aren't going to be that fast... So, let's say someone's running a 1:05.xxx in his car on Tsukuba, that'll cause the AI to run 1:06.xxx so he can easily win. If you're doing 1:02.xxx with the same car, the AI's going to put up 1:02.xxx lap times, and if you're a rather experienced driver and you're putting down 1:01.0xx lap times, the AI could go down to 1:00.9xx so you have a reason to keep pushing. The better you are, the more challenging the game. Up to a certain extend, of course, and that's when the AI is driving their cars to the utmost limit... A bit silly, maybe, but I could see something like that working.

The explanation is rubbish, I know, but I think you all get the idea :D
 
Generally a "Racing Game" should offer actual "Racing" :)

Being able to burn off at least 3-5 AI on the start is a problem for many racing games as well. If Mario Kart can make its AI fast enough T10 should be able to as well. Furthermore AI for shooting games has developed greatly over the years but the same doesn't seem to of happened for the racing genre.

If a racing game appeared looking like "Pole Position" but had superb "new benchmark" AI I guess it would be an instant hit.
Speaking of which I wonder what racing game people here will remember as having the best or most challenging AI on a console?

Shift 2? the benchmark time in Dirt3 rally stage can be very tough too but those ain't real AIs in my book.
 
I'd second that. The AI in Shift 2 is rather good (could be tad faster, though, if you're in equal cars). Along with the sound, that's something Shift 2 did really well in my opinion.
 
In a racing game, you can have a slider for AI speed (in fact, that's how it's done on most PC sims, although the ranges are often inadequate). Sure, you can leave easy / medium / hard etc. as presets, but also allow for custom settings! It's not like the AI only exist in discrete intervals of pace, since I'm sure their raw speed can be represented by (a handful of, non-integer) numbers rather than mere descriptive terms etc.
As much as I agree with the rest of your post, this is an assumption. And I'm pretty sure it's far for being the truth. Especially in Forza.

If Mario Kart can make its AI fast enough T10 should be able to as well.
I'm not sure if building an AI for Mario Kart is even remotely similar to building an AI for Forza.

Furthermore AI for shooting games has developed greatly over the years but the same doesn't seem to of happened for the racing genre.
We must not have played the same shooters over those years. Except if you're talking about ArmA of course.

The AI found in shooters is often well calibrated in regard to the featured gameplay mechanics, but it's still incredibly dumb.

Edit : Just so you now, I'm one of the rare guys thinking the AI in Forza, despite some obvious flaws, is incredibly impressive, if a bit slow.
 
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Adaptable AI is probably a very good way of doing things. In fact, it's been a staple of racing games for many years, except it was usually in the form of "rubber banding", which Mario Kart et al. are definitely guilty of (as was Gran Turismo for a long time). It's possibly the easiest way to make a game scale to player ability, but it can feel a bit inconsistent where one moment you're scything through the pack and the next you're slipping backwards as though you were in reverse.

You're always going to have this issue with adaptable AI, though. All the Unreal games had this with the AI "bots" for multiplayer modes, and the adaptive mode would see you trounce them one match and get slaughtered the next, since the difficulty "levels" weren't fine-grained enough, even though there were about 7 levels.

Matching the AI before a race based on your previous performance (or after an initial "tutorial", if necessary... I think the later Race Driver games did this) would possibly work if it was sensitive enough. The difficulty should scale both the kinds of cars that will be pitched against you (e.g. by some performance score) and the speed of the AI for maximum flexibility, since scaling only the cars will still give massive discontinuities (either you "draw" a certain car, or you don't). You could measure it as some compound score of time difference to the lead car vs. lead car performance index, all weighted by the average performance index of the field vs. starting positions etc. This score would ideally serve as a modifier, rather than an absolute setting, so that the difficulty more smoothly converges on a nice average, rather than swinging each way every other race (or lap / corner!). All of this could then be offset by a traditional difficulty slider, which controls the relative level of the AI to you over a smaller range (e.g. within half a second per lap, each way). Thus you can either present yourself with a challenge if you have excellent focus, or you can slacken it off a touch if you're prone to making mistakes. My reasoning behind this is that being "slow" doesn't necessarily preclude one from wanting a challenge, nor being consistent. Additionally, if you're coming back to the game after a while (or for a new session), and you're struggling to keep up, the game could recognise this and immediately set the AI lower for the next race (depending on how you cope) to help you get back into it, instead of leaving you frustrated and likely to give up!


It would take some serious balancing to make sure the game has a steady difficulty curve throughout the career, but it's do-able. This system could also be used for extra rewards over and above the basic cash and progression etc, and the difficulty setting and "score" would best be visible before and after each race for reference. All of this could be in addition to responsive AI mechanisms in-race, like fatigue, focus, pressure etc. rather than just "pace" so that it seems more like you're influencing things (and witnessing the AI influence each other) rather than simply being accommodated.
Anyway, clearly I'm very intrigued to see how FM4's system works out. :)
 
HBK
As much as I agree with the rest of your post, this is an assumption. And I'm pretty sure it's far for being the truth. Especially in Forza.


I'm not sure if building an AI for Mario Kart is even remotely similar to building an AI for Forza.


We must not have played the same shooters over those years. Except if you're talking about ArmA of course.

The AI found in shooters is often well calibrated in regard to the featured gameplay mechanics, but it's still incredibly dumb.

Edit : Just so you now, I'm one of the rare guys thinking the AI in Forza, despite some obvious flaws, is incredibly impressive, if a bit slow.


No I'm just referring to games having AI that can be challenging.
The AI in many ways may be "Dumb" as you put it but many shooters on the hardest settings for me at least can still give a decent challenge to the game.

Tirewear/Grip, lockups should be improved more as a gameplay mechanic for the player and perhaps less for the AI as well. Racing games could greatly improve in their AI and challenge.
 
^I don't think it's rare (people thinking the AI in Forza is good). I think quite a few people are actually impressed with the AI in Forza.
 
Racing games could greatly improve in their AI and challenge.
Of course.

But you're talking about two radically different things here. AI and challenge are of course related in many ways. But you can make a super advanced AI which provides no challenge as much as you can make a dumb-ass AI which is unbeatable.

And on a side note, "adaptive AI" is a designer's nightmare. I hope it'll turn out well in Forza 4. But it will unlikely be something super advanced. Up until now, the AI in Forza has been a "real" AI (i.e. and AI which actually drives the car), and it will likely be the same in Forza 4. I'm pretty sure such AI cannot simply be tweaked with "lap time sliders". I think we'll end up with "PI upgrade" adjustments and maybe some AI difficulty switch, a "trick" which will effectively result in a "dynamic competition".

And yes, just so you know, I do have basic knowledge in AI programming (but not in the realm of real time decision).
 
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Don't know about you guys but I do not want rubber banding AI in this games meant for sims. Would rather have the AI be able to be the best of the best 100% of the full race or mediocre 100% of the full race. If I stink I don't want the AI to feel sorry for me and slow down. If I'm good I also don't want the AI to turn from a karting reject to Ayrton Senna

This adaptive AI could be really cool. All that's needed on the car side is to auto upgrade vehicles to match your class/PI rating. But if adaptive AI means the coding of the AI's behavior and if he adapts to your characteristics... that might be a bit hard. Would be cool though if you are a bump n run racer that eventually the AI does the same to you but if clean racer they'll usually remain clean.. taste of your own medicine so to speak.
 
Would rather have the AI be able to be the best of the best 100% of the full race or mediocre 100% of the full race. If I stink I don't want the AI to feel sorry for me and slow down. If I'm good I also don't want the AI to turn from a karting reject to Ayrton Senna.
This, +1e+100
 
Well guys Gamescom is fast approaching...
They recently announced the press conferences...

Gamescom
Xbox Play Day (Microsoft Deutschland Gmb)
Tuesday,16th August 2011
12:30 – 15:30


Public opening is from 18th -21st
Lets hope for an exciting new trailer, info and possibly a new track.
 
It took years and many games to get away from rubberband AI lets all hope it doesn't come back around. I can see some pimply-faced 19 year old programmer "Hey guys I just thought of something, lets make the AI get faster and catch-up behind the scenes when the user is outpacing it and make it dumb and slow when the user can't catch up. I just thought of this all by myself".
 
Err, actually, rubber band AI is still commonplace in racing games ...
 
If they use the same AI behavior in Shift2 in Forza4 I will be happy.

Cars scale to YOUR Performance Index, and then set the difficulty of the AI. The AI are aggresive but not dirty. No rubber banding.

I am also hoping for A large scal of difficutly. From Very Easy, Easy, Medium, Hard, Very Hard, and Brutal. That way everyone has got an option.
 
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