Grade the "American Revolution."

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Ghost C
Since I seriously doubt you've hit puberty judging by the content of your posts, I'm going to wave a BS flag on you driving most of the cars you've talked about.


i forgot to mention that a coupla weeks ago, GM had thier own ride and drive event at pomona raceway in LA. they brought the complete lineup. from the aveo to the silverado HD.

as for your last request. foque off. twit.
 
neanderthal
as for your last request. foque off. twit.

So not only do you fail to provide evidence that you are in fact 32, you go on to insult me. Much like an immature teenager would, further proving my point. Very nice.
 
Ghost C
So not only do you fail to provide evidence that you are in fact 32, you go on to insult me. Much like an immature teenager would, further proving my point. Very nice.

Maybe you're being immature by asking for proof of something that doesn't matter. If you think he's a poser, then just ignore him. If you think the rest of us are being maliciously tricked by some 13 year old somewhere who wants to make himself look big, then say so if you must. He has absolutly no obligation to go out of his way to prove anything he says to you just because you ask. His refusal to do so does not support your 'theory' at all.
 
Ghost C
So not only do you fail to provide evidence that you are in fact 32, you go on to insult me. Much like an immature teenager would, further proving my point. Very nice.

how bout you show evidence youre not a retard first?
 
Guys please lets stop argueing. It's the internet who cares.

Anyways have any of you seen the Colorado Xtreme, its makes me want to cry :(. It descrases the Xtreme name. What's next an Xtreme Equinox?
 
BlazinXtreme
Guys please lets stop argueing. It's the internet who cares.

Anyways have any of you seen the Colorado Xtreme, its makes me want to cry :(. It descrases the Xtreme name. What's next an Xtreme Equinox?
What do you think of the base Colorado? The front end is interesting, but it's let down by the conservitive lines of the rest of it. The Cruz (concept?) on the other hand, is probably too extreme.
What do you think of them making a new I5 for it when they have a class leading 6cyl already? (this is not my question, I read it somewhere. Just trying to get the discussion going somewhere productive)
 
Yes, yes, yes... I'm back from the Houston Auto Show. I knew I had to see some Chevys for myself to comment about from the show to make for dicsussion.

Alright, where do I start? I'll start with the Chevy Corvette C6. Where I was skeptical about the exterior of the car, I thought the inside was pretty cool. Being inside kind of makes you forget about the car's looks. Why? You got a 400hp LS2 motor riding down the highway. 'Nuff said. I didn't see a Monte Carlo or Impala, but I did see the Cobalt. That thing is pretty sporty. I was actually impressed, especially the SS Cobalt. The modern hotrod truck is the Chevy SSR. It came in yellow, but on the inside, I can see myself riding down I-45 and maybe hitting the Houston Galleria. The retro styling deal was great. The Chevy Uplander looked like it was based off the Saturn Relay, and I thought it was pretty nice. You truck lovers might like this one. I don't know what it's called (I believe it was the Chevy Silverado SS), but this truck really looked like a NASCAR Truck homologated for the road. No one can get in, but the machine was pretty wild. I bet it can't wait to challenge the Dodge Ram SRT-10 and upcoming Ford F-150 Lightning.

So I'd say that there is some excitement to be had with Chevrolet. You can simply get in and get a feel for how the car/truck is on the inside. I wouldn't call it a Revolution at all. It's more like a nice collection of rides available for Chevy fans.

Here's an exclusive. I talked with one of the Chevy representatives about if we may see a rear-wheel drive Chevy Impala or Monte Carlo. She said that the Impala was actually Chevy's top selling automobile, and also said that with people mentioning this online, it may be possible to see a rear-wheel drive Impala or Monte Carlo. So if this is what you want, continue to bug GM about it.
 
The Chevy HHR(I believe that's the name) will be interesting in production form. I believe it's still in it's concept stage.
 
Chevy really ticked me off when they anounced the introduction of the cobalt. The second I saw that thing I thought of NFSU. Looks like car companies are trying a little too hard to make a car look "good."
 
M5Power
Yeah - too bad that statistic's total crap. I'd call its quarter mile 15.2 on a good day, 0-60 in around seven seconds. Who the hell told you fourteens, Drifting Thunda?
15.2 is still impressive. Get over it.

I'm not sure if it was what was questioned or not but the T-Bird did dissappear '98-'01. The new ones aren't selling well (not suprisingly at all) and I was informed they are discontinued after the '05 model.

In case anyone actually LIKES the Crossfire you should download the episode of Top Gear about it, they make some very valid points as to why it's a total piece of Mopar crap.

Someone asked why GM would need the Camaro when there's a GTO. They are two very different cars, why not?
 
The Xtreme name would have to be somewhat reputable before it could be disgraced. As it is no one really remembers it, and no one really cares.

Actually just about every mini trucker knows and cares. It was a sad day when GM pulled the plug on the S-10 and Blazer. I remember seeing the first Xtreme's at the NAIAS back in 1999 or 1998 saying damn I want one of those.

What do you think of the base Colorado? The front end is interesting, but it's let down by the conservitive lines of the rest of it. The Cruz (concept?) on the other hand, is probably too extreme.
What do you think of them making a new I5 for it when they have a class leading 6cyl already? (this is not my question, I read it somewhere. Just trying to get the discussion going somewhere productive)

I really dislike the Colorado, when I was at the Tech Center I got to talk to some of the American team that helped work on it. Turns out something like 90% was designed by Isuzu and it was GM's first stab at 100% computer engineered automobile. When the first was built the everything was totally off because a computer designed it. Instead of redesigning the thing they just kinda fixed them and threw them out to the public.

There are still a lot of bugs to work out of them and just about everyone at GM calls it the next best thing to a Chevy LUV truck. In fact the interior was inspired by a LUV. That right there should make you run in the opposite direction as fast as humanly possible from the thing.

The I5 engine is the only savior to the thing. I got to drive one and it would get up and go quite nicely. It's way better then the 4.3L V6 that was in the S-Trucks. It gets better mileage too.

What should have happened was GM should have just redesigned the S-10 making it a 4th gen and developed new motor for it (or just adapt a I6 of a Trailblazer). It gets me since the S-10 was one of the best selling small trucks all over the world. Why would GM yank the plug one em?

Also how the hell is a Trailblazer a replace ment for the Blazer? Ones compact and the other mid-sized. Plus the Trailblazer is like 30k while a Blazer you could get for under 20k. I think in about 5 years they will design a "new" Blazer of the Colorado chassie. Much like GM did with the K5 Blazer to the S-10 Blazer.

M5 would flip if he heard this, but I really think GM needs a 2-door SUV to get buyers like me. I want the workings of a small truck without the exposed back end.

Someone asked why GM would need the Camaro when there's a GTO. They are two very different cars, why not?

They aren't as different as you think.
 
the chevy roadster looks like a vauxhall vx220 and the uplander like a jacked up volvo. The cobalt looks like a vauxhall astra coupe.
 
BlazinXtreme
What should have happened was GM should have just redesigned the S-10 making it a 4th gen and developed new motor for it (or just adapt a I6 of a Trailblazer). It gets me since the S-10 was one of the best selling small trucks all over the world. Why would GM yank the plug one em?
It was about damn time GM yanked the plug. The S10 was getting too small for the class, and it's structural integrity couldn't compete any more.
 
skip0110
It was about damn time GM yanked the plug. The S10 was getting too small for the class, and it's structural integrity couldn't compete any more.

Ya thats why it was in need of a redesign. But what was wrong with the structure of it? I'm rather curious to hear your take on it.
 
BlazinXtreme
Ya thats why it was in need of a redesign. But what was wrong with the structure of it? I'm rather curious to hear your take on it.
Well there are several reasons why I think just revamping the existing structure would not have worked well for GM. Firstly, the old S10 scored very poorly on NHTSA crash tests, and adding additional bracing to the structure in order to improve these scores would add additional weight to the truck. Also, in order to add additional passenger space and mofify the body to accept the I-5 or I-6 engine would require enough chassis modifications to validate a new platform. Also, I think GM is trying to (slowly) retire the pushrod 4.3 V6 used in the S10 (essentially three-quarters of a Gen I small-block V8, which was retired years ago).

And although I have never even been in a S10 or Colorado, nor do I hve much information on their suspension design, I would suspect that GM engineers jumped at this oppertunity to increase the body rigidity allowing more careful suspension tuning that would not have been possibkle with the old S10 platform.
 
Modifying the S-10 chassie is easy to do and it would be simple to put another engine into it without having a ton of problems. People have put up to 454's into S-10's without problems...other then the rear end blowing up. An I6 or and I5 would have fit with minimal modification.

The crash test actually aren't that back, this is going from the Blazer perspective but I'm sure its the same. I think the frame is pretty good. My truck was in a pretty nasty collision and the frame didn't even damage.

The suspension is pretty basic, coils with control arms up front with leafs in the back. They can't really haul all that much, although in my buddy's S-10 we throw 2 dirt bikes in the back and that thing has a 5/7 drop on it.

I honestly GM made a mistake in doing away with the S-10 and replacing it with the Colorado. I truely think GM's small truck market will go down in a firey blaze. And they have no good small SUV. If someone was to call the Equinox good I might just have to cry. Small, FWD, unibody SUV's are just big station wagons that teenage girls like.
 
First off, I'd like to say that decrying cars like the Aveo, Cobalt, G6, Malibu, Impala, Gran Prix, and Bonneville because they're not style leaders is kind of like saying that postage stamps fail because they aren't in the Louvre.

Here in Cleveland (which is a perfect example of the market GM wants a strangle on - plain speaking blue collar middle class America) you see lots of Aveos driven usually by single moms because they're very inexpensive and can fit a lot of groceries and/or a lot of kids.

The Malibu works very well as a family workhorse. The engine is sturdy and can miss an oil change or a tune-up without any serious problems, and any local on-the-corner shop can service it with their stock of parts (thank you GM for making the AC Delco PH47 filter practically universal on the V6's). Again, lots of space for kids and groceries, plus appliance like reliability and durability. Plus it's very inexpensive to own and maintain.

The Impala is still on the same platform as the Gran Prix, the Buick Regal, and the defunct Olds Silohouette. All that parts crossover makes the Impala inexpensive, durable, and easy to service. People around here have a lot of faith in their big GM sedans because they know that GM has been refining the same design since the early 90's and should anything break it can be replaced quickly and inexpensively. Plus the 3800 series of V6's is loved for their deep torque, great mileage, and clockwork reliability. At the shop where I work, people regularly bring in 3800's with over 220,000 miles on them. Usually, on GM 3800 cars, the biggest things we replace are fuel pumps (around the 115,000 mile mark) and fuel injectors (170,000 mile + depending on fuel grade used).

The Cobalt is trying to do what the Focus did - bring a European driving dynamic to an affordable American compact. While it's still unclear if they did so or not, I have found that people who were already happy with the workhorse Cavalier (another appliance car) are thrilled with their Cobalts. Folks who own Cobalts who've come into the shop where I work have said things like "Engine has some pep to it" and "car just feels nicer". People are happy with the Cobalt and see it as a good Cavalier replacement. The jury may still be out on whether or not the SS Cobalt coupe is the new barnstorming sport compact, but the Cobalt sedan is the new domestic drive everyday appliance compact.

GM makes good cars for the mass-market. They have a very good understanding of what people need for their cars to be. Not everyone who looks at a Cobalt is thinking "Man, with a chip and an exhaust I could get 30 more hp out of it". In fact, most of them are thinking "That's an easy backseat to put a babyseat in." or "30mpg, that's better than the 20 or so my old Grand Am is getting and gas sure is expensive."

Affordable, reliable, durable, practical transportation that's user friendly. That's really what's driving the "American Revolution." It's not about Chevrolet suddenly becoming a style or performance leader. It's about GM offering everyday people even better everyday cars.
 
BlazinXtreme
Modifying the S-10 chassie is easy to do and it would be simple to put another engine into it without having a ton of problems. People have put up to 454's into S-10's without problems...other then the rear end blowing up. An I6 or and I5 would have fit with minimal modification.
I've heard of people swapping all sorts of small-blocks into S10s, but never a big-block. And the small-block requires some firewall-bashing to squeeze everything in there. Keep in mind that a V8 is only 1 cylinder longer than the V6, wheras the I5 is 2 cylinders longer, and the I6 is almost twice as long. I'm not saying that the frame couldn't be modified to fit, but I'm saying that the expense to redesign the frame would validate the creation of a new platform.
 
Nicer than the Focus, or nicer than the previous Cavalier? I don't think any of the American companies have made enough of a change or reprisal to even consider saying "an american revolution", although Ford has done a good job at bringing back the integrity of Jaguar and Aston Martin.

In order for it to be an american "revolution", I would suggest they start looking at their Japanese counterparts. Their cars are pretty basic, and easy to work on, but that's because instead of using complicated technology (a supercharger?! a turbocharger?! omg wth are those?!) to get power out of their engines, they rely on sheer size (see 8.3L V10 vs 3.5L V12) to power the engine, which thus makes things less complicated to work on, and also give mechanics the ability to replace or even forge parts for them relatively easily. Although this may sound like a good tactic, it's too bad that they've been using that tactic for the past 60 years. Where European cars are safety and technology oriented, and Japanese cars are reliability and cost oriented, American cars seem to be a hodgepodge of both of those, bringing out the evils of both. I know plenty of people who are extremely unsatisfied with American cars, and would instantly choose a Japanese one with a few less features any day. The problem with the American Revolution is this: there's no revolution- at all. You can't try and say that because engines are being retired, and new models are being introduced, that that's a revolution...at all. American cars are still huge, pushrod, cast iron, stinky blocks of metal with people inside them. Sure they've started including many more features and options, but how long do those last, and what kind of effort is put into those options (i know a few people with Cadillac's who complain about the power windows and the A/C crapping out abnormally quickly)? The Dodge/Chrysler Caravan and Caravan Sport for instance, it was one of the first (if not THE first) to include a DVD player. Same with the Suburban. The only problem is, half the time they don't work (yes, I can vouche for this with personal experience).

Many people think that just because a car has a ton of features, it's good. This is where the European and Japanese companies come into play. The Japanese have all stayed with their motto of "the most basic is the most succesfull", and it has worked for them. A Japanese car will last you damn near forever (sans the Infiniti G35's brakes), and is easy to work on, and they are far more fuel efficient. The Japanese also manage to stay on top of their game in terms of automotive technology. It's hard to explain, but a Japanese car will always have certain things to distinguish it from an American car. Japanese cars are lighter, because of the body paneling usually, and they are thus usually more fuel efficient. But it doesn't stop there. The Japanese car companies design (don't think about this one too hard) their cars with thought. American car designers look at what make a car "popular". They then come out with cheap blows, ugly cars, and overly flared and wild designs (see new viper, crossfire) which are often taken out of the "tuner's world" (ala the nasty cobalt).

With a Japanese company they first look at 1) Practicality. With an American car they first look at 1) what does the uneducated buyer want?. This is where the illusion of the American revolution comes into play. Here's an example, would you rather have a bicycle with 21 speeds, a gel seat and a horn, or would you rather have a one-speed bike, with pegs, little bead thingies on the spokes, and lots of reflectors? Well that bike with the 21 speeds and a gel seat is your Japanese car. Heck, I could have used another bike analogy where Jeep invented an "AWD Offroad Bike". Yes, it's a heavy, inarticulate, retarded bike that forces you to pedal 2 wheels. Not so practical when YOU'RE THE MOTOR. The American car revolution can be summed up as the poor kid at your school that has no idea whats going on. He's always a step behind in the style, he tries way too hard to fit in, and he has a fake personality. The Japanese...industry...however, is like the contemporary kid at your school. He has his own kind of basic, normal style, he's got a tight knit group of friends that he can always rely on, and he always hands his assignments in on time. The European market for instance, is the nerdy kid with glasses, who is always trying to perfect something or other, for the good of the class. He is usually elected Validictorian, and everybody knows who he is because he is his own, good intentioned, although somewhat inept, man. The difference between the 3? Well, one needs some serious catching up to do, the other needs to get out more, and the latter needs to quit being an ignorant sellout and get his job done.
 
I'm not even going to read that mess. At least sperate your thoughts or something so I can try to unscramble that jibberish.

From waht I got out of that is that you for some reason think American cars are ancient. Not evey automobile in America was built in 1972 and there has been change. You are just an idiot that has something out for American cars when you have not picked up one singal car magazine to read about them and if you have you must have picked up the March issue of Car & Driver from 1970.

You think all American cars have big engines? Hmmm...the Cobalt SS has a 121 cubic inch engine (2.0L) and what's this it supercharged! My God an American car with a supercharger, what is this world coming to.

You know why car companies put big engines in cars? Numbers sell cars. You really think the average consumer knows what horsepower is? No they equate it to more is better. It's a marketing technique.

You want to talk about complicated cars? The BMW I-Drive system is by far the hardest thing I've ever tried to use while I was driving. Just give me simple buttons.

You want to talk about breakdowns? Any Jaguar falls apart, they have one of the worst records for service quality.

But since we are comparing things from the 1970's here. The Japanese cars breakdown more then the American cars, they are small, they are unsafe, and if I see one on the road I'm going to run it over with my 1974 Monte Carlo.

And I bet you are one who thinks a Honda Truck is a revolution. Ya a FWD, unibody truck screams practical.
 
Oh oh oh oh oh......I almost forgot the Cadillac V Series. How stupid of me.

STS-V 4.4L V8 Supercharged engine with 440hp.
CTS-V 5.7L LS6 400hp
 
I think the new Viper is one of the most beautiful cars ever, and it was designed by a Japanese man.
 
No it wasn't the Viper was designed by a bunch of middle aged white guys. Bob Lutz had a huge part into making the orignal Viper.
 
BlazinXtreme
You want to talk about breakdowns? Any Jaguar falls apart, they have one of the worst records for service quality.

Amen. My '91 Cadillac Sedan DeVille has 190k miles on it, and the motor runs like the day it was driven off the showroom floor. Never had any major problems, ever. Any well taken care of car with the Cadillac 4.9 V8 will see the plus side of 300,000 miles.

I honestly don't know where people get this whole idea that American cars are unreliable.
 
Here is the Viper design team from some coffee table book I have.

viperbook16wr.jpg


viperbook26jb.jpg


The founding fathers

viperbook33jt.jpg
 
I believe Road Dog was talking about the 2nd generation Viper, which was designed by Osamu Shikado. Curiously enough, Shikado was also the man who designed the final generation of Toyota Celicas.

And, if we want to talk about weight, why not discuss the weights of current Japanese, European, and American mid-line sports cars using cold hard numbers? ($150,000 price cap to exclude the ridiculously exotic, and we'll only compare cars available on the American market)

Americans
- Dodge Viper SRT-10: 3380 lbs
- Cadillac XLR: 3645 lbs
- Chevrolet Corvette (C6): 3245 lbs
- Chevrolet Corvette Z06: 3130 lbs
- Chrysler Crossfire SRT-6: 3240 lbs
- Ford GT: 3390 lbs
- Panoz Esperante: 3200 lbs
- Ford Mustang GT: 3425 lbs
- Pontiac GTO: 3770 lbs

European
- Porsche 911 Carrera (997): 3075 lbs
- Maserati 3200GT coupe: 3704 lbs
- Aston Martin DB9: 3770 lbs (11k over the price cap, but an exception was made)
- Jaguar XK-R: 4015 lbs
- BMW 645ci: 3527 lbs (closest thing BMW has to a Vette since the Z8 was cancelled)
- Lamborghini Gallardo: 3560 lbs
- Lotus Esprit V8: 2968 lbs
- Noble M12 GTO: 2315 lbs
- Morgan Aero 8: 2500 lbs
- Ferrari F430 Modena: 3197 lbs

Japanese
- Acura NSX: 3153 lbs
- Nissan 350Z: 3150 lbs
- Infiniti G35 Coupe: 3435 lbs
- Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution: 3263 lbs
- Subaru WRX STi: 3263 lbs
- Lexus SC430: 3870 lbs
- Mazda RX-8: 2970 lbs

Seems to me American cars are right in line in weight with their competitors. The lightest car in class is the Noble kit car which has practically no amenities, and the heaviest cars are all big luxurious 4 seat V8 tourers (the Jaguar, the Lexus, and a tie between the DB9 and the GTO).
 
i would like to know exactly what is revolutionary about chevys current lineup?
sure its a bunch of new models. big deal. none of them have made any real impact in terms of market penetration, gain in market share, or been revolutionary enough to bring punters into the showrooms.

nissan was a basket case 5 years ago; dated product, perennial losses, huge incentives.
now the altima is (i think) the 3rd best selling midsize. the G coupes and sedans are making thier mark in the entry lux category, the murano looks wild and gets the looks and probably generates foot traffic (unlike the aztek) even if it doesnt make huge numbers, they've delved into the full sized truck market with a vehicle that is only let down by not having enough derivatives, and most importantly, they are making money hand over foot. that is what i call a revolution.
mazda seems to be on its way with the 6, the 3, the RX8, the forthcoming flexa (whatever its called) and so on. these cars have come to market and made an impact, unlike pretty much anything new from chevy/ GM, CTS aside.

i dont know if the products are being designed to simply hold market share or to appeal to the people who by them right now, but whatever the thinking is behind them, its not working. lutz has brought an intangible something to GM, cars are kinda beginning to have a sense of verve and fun and equitability with competitors, but only some of that is getting through.

and whats sad is that some of us are sitting on the sidelines and cheering for them, and they keep producing duds. i think they should change thier midset to one where when they design the car, the midset should be "this car must be the car to turn GMs fortunes round." i think if each car is designed with that in mind we may see a resurgence at GM. but until then.......
 
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