GT Sport Penalty System Under Fire Again as Official FIA Season Begins

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by GTPNewsWire, Mar 19, 2020.

  1. pwningstone

    pwningstone

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    I understand the need to not have the community influence the direction of fairness, when in most cases people are never satisfied.

    The grip is that Japanese business culture invented bottom up management... and the contrast is that Japanese design culture is always concerned with fidelity, which is probably their biggest asset.

    It’s hard to defend their actions but I understand the culture of purity and precision.

    Sorry for the culture lesson/diatribe, but I think context is important.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2020
  2. Auditore

    Auditore

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    Been thinking about this,if the problem is contact between cars it might only be solved in the next game.
    The next gen might solve contact problems which means it might also solve the light bump penalty mess.
     
  3. pwningstone

    pwningstone

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    What we can hope for is that the new processor will be able to handle much more advanced physics.

    Currently, tire physics and collision physics consumes the majority of the CPU workload.

    Hopefully the new multithreaded Ryzen chips will be able to handle a greater workload. Probably why they don’t give a rats a$$ about the current penalty system.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2020
  4. breeminator

    breeminator

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    Do you know that for a fact? It's just that even on CPUs several decades ago, computations of that nature were able to be performed extremely quickly. In the 1990s, I was implementing a simulation and was concerned about the run-time of an algorithm I was writing. When I tested it, it was able to execute tens of thousands of times in just a few seconds, which was no problem at all for our application. CPUs already had integrated maths co-processors back then, making physics type calculations extremely quick. I'd be very surprised if those types of calculation were consuming any significant % of modern CPUs.
     
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  5. pantherjag

    pantherjag

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    So if spent the last couple of hours watching replays that have been posted since the maintenance that adjusted the penalty system.

    On one side it's good news and on the other not so good.

    The good news is that it appears the system is not dishing out penaltys left right and centre for any minor contact or brushing at anywhere near the same frequency as it was earlier in the week. It still does on occasion but the time penalty is also less severe than it was from what I can see. I seen plenty of side by side door rubbing and racing that was allowed to pass unpenalised that early in the week would have seen 4,8,10 second penaltys dished out.

    Now it's far from perfect, still occasionally get it wrong and sometimes a punt goes unpunished but I also seen lots of deserved penalty getting handed out as well.

    @Sven Jurgens stated that on monday the 16th something changed server side in the penalty system and I have to agree given what went on in my FIA races on wednesday. It looks like they have rolled it back to pre that change with maybe a few alterations.
     
  6. pwningstone

    pwningstone

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    Im just a computer engineer. The math coprocessors were terribly implemented in Sony equipment, and were used only in hardware system management, developers did not have direct access to the math coprocessor. Sony has had a long history of keeping their hardware off limits and giving devs limited access to their system capabilities
     
  7. azrilnazli

    azrilnazli

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    If 50 players play online , what kind of data being sent/receive to the servers ?

    I assume complex physics will require more bytes sent/receive.

    In order to maintain gameplay, latency must be minimal.

    Imagine a player with 33ms latency fighting with 300ms latency. At 300ms, Assetto Corsa was unplayable at all.
     
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  8. pwningstone

    pwningstone

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    You can’t play at 300ms latency for GTS online, I think the limit is around 80-100ms or under for the system to work. All server side actions use that as the system synchronization.

    EDIT: You’ll notice if you ever watch another player on a replay that their movements are always jerky, but kinda steady jerking, that’s the system sync taking only input at like 80-100ms intervals (real-time playing is a bit different, but server data). It’s pretty archaic to be quite honest, which goes back to what I was saying earlier about Sony being pretty heavy handed to their developers
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2020
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  9. GTPNewsWire

    GTPNewsWire Contributing Writer

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  10. hardvibes

    hardvibes

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    The penalty judgement algorithm in regards to light contacts and collisions between cars during online races has been adjusted.

    What about offline? When I do the bluemoon race to get 300.000 cr I always lose 100.000 because some idiot AI behind me lightly touches my car in a corner
     
  11. KepleroGT

    KepleroGT

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    It took the biggest sim racing youtuber getting a stupid penalty on the official channel, combined with many World Tour finalists calling it out to wake them up.
    Honestly you can't say that Polyphony's communication with the fans isn't one of the worst in the industry. Fortunately, I saw a few tweets from a guy working at the company. Maybe he will make Kaz realize that we're in the Internet Age now.
     
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  12. Sven Jurgens

    Sven Jurgens Premium

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    Very little is exchanged with the server / router. The server doesn't run the game itself, hence it is incapable of making correct penalty assessments.

    Every client sends their own car telemetry to the server which duplicates it and sends it on to all other clients.

    Each client receives data from all other cars and forward predicts it to run in sync with your car. This all happens separately per car. Only your own car is running in real time, all the other ones are forward predicted based on how old the last telemetry is from that car.

    If a player with 33ms ping is racing a player with 300ms ping, what happens is:

    It takes your data 16ms to reach the server, then 150ms to reach the other player and vice versa.
    So if you both drive 60 m/s (216 kph / 135 mph) your car is displaced/predicted forward by 4 meters on his screen and his car is displaced/predicted forward by 4 meters on your screen. As long as the lag is stable the game can cope pretty well with forward prediction. However lag never is, the higer the latency, the higher the jitter or variance as well. GTS handles jitter and lag spikes pretty badly, the worse the jitter the more erratic cars start to behave.

    Physics, criteria for ghosting, collision, all that is handled on the console. Hence when there is contact the physics often look weird. You collide with the forward predicted car of someone else. You can't actually move other cars on your console, only the effects on your own car are shown (and the new telemetry is send on to the server) and you won't see the effects of the collision on the other car until the telemetry from how the collision played out on their console reaches you. Since both cars are in slightly different places/speeds/angles at the time of the collision (from all the forward predicting) the collision often look under/over exaggerated. There is even a bug where some laggy clients stop accepting any telemetry from other cars (drive by themselves) but are still sending their telemetry which results in a car running on your client that is immune to any contact and will shove you out of the way without any effect on them.

    Anyway long story short, the server only sees telemetry from all cars and simple info like contact, car hit wall, went outside track limits, and tracks position changes by synchronizing the time from all incoming telemetry. It doesn't know anything about track placement, whether contact happened in a corner, straight or braking zone, and tries to make sense of a collision that played out slightly differently on each console. It's an impossible task without actually running the simulation on the server to apply actual racing rules. Currently it can't say who didn't leave room where or who started braking too late since it simply doesn't know where anyone is on the road.
     
  13. Sven Jurgens

    Sven Jurgens Premium

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    There is no system synchronization and I have seen the server happily let players continue with over 500ms latency. I think the most I ever saw was 800ms. The jerking is usually caused by jitter. Someone could be playing on wifi or have other processes interfere that create cyclic little lag spikes. One yellow bar connection is not like the other.
     
  14. Groundfish

    Groundfish Premium

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    1,760
    Yeah but tons of all FREE updates, physics/tire model upgrades/added cars and tracks FREE, great livery editor...
    Constantly trying to make people happy with pen system when at release when it was almost perfect, giving free trips around the world to the best players,
    But there’s a definite sense of entitlement from many players and continuous stream of negativity towards the developers from a group of folks who lets be honest are not capable of producing a gaming experience like this...
    Just sayin, there’s a lot of good and not sure PD totally deserves hate.
     
  15. BSDShoes

    BSDShoes

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    The atrocious penalty system is why I stopped playing this game, getting punished for someone else's stupid mistakes.
     
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  16. Joeyt8919

    Joeyt8919

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    Whilst it is definitely less penalty heavy - SR can still easily tank, sectors can be marked as SR down without any penalty, light contact is enough to do this.
     
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  17. cjr3559

    cjr3559 Premium

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    I was a tester, and the penalty system was the least of their concerns. Simply making it through a standing start was a disaster until they gave up on that idea. Then there were wrecks in every turn 1 and every corner after that. I gave up on the online mode played arcade mode until they turned it off, and then stopped participating right afterward.

    I really felt they were testing for connectivity and server stability back then, but sensed all along the online racing and ranking system would be a mess and nothing like I was expecting or hoped for.
     
    barak181 likes this.
  18. meekrab

    meekrab

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    Good!
     
  19. Groundfish

    Groundfish Premium

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    Lol so you know there’s a ‘mess’ but have not participated at all?
    Thanks for sharing your extensive sport mode experience over the last several years that most here actually have.
     
  20. theschledy

    theschledy

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    They're continuously working on the penalty system, but didn't we start the year with no penalty system at all? :lol:

    Unpopular opinion: this game is overrated.
     
  21. Lazybike

    Lazybike

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    I think the game is good, the main problem is the players, given clean players the new system should be OK, the problems come when people start gaming the new system.
     
  22. davidt33

    davidt33

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    Ditto to this. Good of them to hear and implement whatever adjustments though. They gained points for that regards customer service.
     
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  23. Phaceless_Ph

    Phaceless_Ph

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    It shouldn't have taken real-life racers complaining for them to address it...
     
  24. Skinny McLean

    Skinny McLean

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    What Sony equipment are you referring to?
     
  25. cjr3559

    cjr3559 Premium

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    You’re welcome! It was a mess then, and let me see...from the thousands of posts it’s still a mess? :lol: Good luck.
     
  26. Groundfish

    Groundfish Premium

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    All I speak from is my own personal experiences in sport mode.
    By your own admission you played a beta had troubles and gave up.
    Personally I worked on my skill set and have found a lot of excellent racing in sport mode.
    There’s a lesson here.
    With things like online racing you tend to get out what you put in, and also it’s best to judge things based on experience over hearsay.

    Cheers
     
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  27. gigio79

    gigio79

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    Well, honestly the penalty system has been improved a little bit, but is still far from a satisfactory result. My point of view is that GT developpers must keep working hard on that because is impossible to play and organize world races with such a problem.
     
  28. kjeldsen

    kjeldsen

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    I played the beta and ever since. Based on that you are posting useless personal anecdotes based on something you played over 2 years ago that since have been patched numerous times, including the driving model and those that play today have earned lots of experience since. You are armchair posting, Twitter is calling..

    Nothing beats a race in GT sport where you meet the right drivers, that is why we keep playing even if the penalty system is broken.
     
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  29. Leggacy

    Leggacy

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    Me too, I’ve played the hell out of this game since the beta. Yes the penalty system sucks sometimes but it’s helped me learn to keep my distance and use the radar to avoid contact. Racing in a pack requires patience to be able to make moves on opponents. I’ve had some amazing races with some great drivers, you just have to be lucky with the matchmaking sometimes.
     
    barak181 likes this.
  30. BjoBosUndies

    BjoBosUndies

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    A lot of comments in here suggest most people posting like to fart into a fan and smell their own fart. Why do I have to read 40 post from experts on various “issues”. Still not one person has said if it’s improved or not since the update.

    IS IT BETTER NOW, SIMILAR OR WORSE?