GT5 - Collector's Edition

[Neal]

Maybe it'll bite them on the ass and the retailer won't accept the return without the unused DLC code...

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

Maybe it'll bite them on the ass and the retailer won't accept the return without the unused DLC code...

Karma isn't that good.

Maybe their PS3 will die on release day, now that would be justice.

Or maybe some poor kid will go to thier local store with all their pennies saved up to find out the games out of stock.

To all those stealing DLC, think of the children!!

 

[FoolKiller]

As far as i know, it's only free if you bought a copy of the game. The reserve fee, if exists, isn't related.

Actually, it is free if you pre-order the game. Hence, a pre-order bonus.

From: http://www.gamestop.com/Catalog/ProductDetails.aspx?product_id=78225

Pre-order Gran Turismo 5 and receive two GameStop exclusive in-game cars, the McLaren F1 Stealth model, and Joey Logano's #20 NASCAR Nationwide series car.

It says nothing about buying.

And the return policy:
http://www.gamestop.com/gs/help/Returns.aspx

Returned product(s) must be in the original packaging and include any manuals, cabling and accessories in saleable condition. We reserve the right to limit returns to unopened or defective products. Defective product(s) will be replaced with a like item, upon return. Terms and conditions of manufacturer's warranty apply to defective video games systems and computer hardware after 30 days.

We do not accept returns of:

• Any product(s) returned more than 30 days from the date on the packing slip.
• Any product(s) that has been opened (taken out of its plastic wrap).
• Any product(s) not in its original condition.
• Any product(s) that is damaged, played, or is missing parts.
• Any product(s) that were sold as part of a bundle, unless the bundle is returned complete.

Please do not send us product(s) that do not meet the return criteria listed above, as we do not issue refunds for non-qualifying items and cannot return the items to you.

If i bought a PS3 and i was given a game free, if i was to return the PS3, i would have to return the game also.

Actually, that would depend on how the store deal is setup. If the game is in a bundle, then yes.

Theft is illegal, deliberately stealing DLC is theft. People here are talking about deliberately 'playing' the system to get free DLC, what they are doing is theft.

If the retailers consider it theft. They don't enforce it in anyway and their return policy doesn't require it. That is because they are playing the system as well. They are more concerned about being able to say they sold X number of games as a pre-order than the slim profit margin first day sales get them. This DLC scheme actually benefits the retailers and game companies in the long run because a month later they can run an ad that says, "4 million copies sold in the first week. See what you are missing. Buy it today."

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

Actually, it is free if you pre-order the game. Hence, a pre-order bonus.

From: http://www.gamestop.com/Catalog/ProductDetails.aspx?product_id=78225

It says nothing about buying.

I would read that more as a bonus if you buy the game after a pre-order.
I doubt i could walk into gamestop and say, please give me your exclusive DLC for free, thanks.

And the return policy:
http://www.gamestop.com/gs/help/Returns.aspx

Again, it could easilly be argued that a DLC voucher is an accessory. Same as a manual i suppose. The code is subject to terms and conditions, same if i was to buy a pc game that required a license key.
It also states in the returns policy about being 'played' or 'missing parts', DLC could fit into at least one of these categorys.

If the retailers consider it theft. They don't enforce it in anyway and their return policy doesn't require it. That is because they are playing the system as well. They are more concerned about being able to say they sold X number of games as a pre-order than the slim profit margin first day sales get them. This DLC scheme actually benefits the retailers and game companies in the long run because a month later they can run an ad that says, "4 million copies sold in the first week. See what you are missing. Buy it today."

I agree it may benefit the companies in the long run, but that doesn't make it right. On top of this, in the long run it's worse for consumers, as the companies can lie to you even more.

 

[bighap]

You can pre-order the standard edition from Newegg for $47.99 currently. No mention of bonus cars though. Just an FYI.

 

[Jump_Ace]

Isn't the DLC free? And does the refund include the $5 or $10 reserve cost? And the AUP disallows discussion of illegal activities, using piracy as an example. I'm not sure if this is illegal.

Me neither Foolkiller. It's gray area, but I see it as a free item, so how can you steal something that is free? That's kind of like saying you steal food from the free food stands at the grocery store; it's a bonus for shopping there And what if my dear ol' Mum buys me the game as a present and I later return it, does Gamestop require you to return the card? And how would they know if I used the card or not? But then again, there is an expectation that you will pay for the item, which is how you get the bonus in the first place. I'd say it's 'unethical' but not illegal.

Jerome

 

[Masi_23]

Geez, what up your bums? How can it be stealing when its a 'bonus' (as in free)? Simple as that. Basically, we're just collecting DLC's that are otherwise not going to be used Not a lot of people will pre-order the game so im sure there is a TON of surplus code thats going to be un-used. Codes maybe unlimited for all we know.

So chill

 

[FoolKiller]

I would read that more as a bonus if you buy the game after a pre-order.
I doubt i could walk into gamestop and say, please give me your exclusive DLC for free, thanks.



Again, it could easilly be argued that a DLC voucher is an accessory. Same as a manual i suppose. The code is subject to terms and conditions, same if i was to buy a pc game that required a license key.
It also states in the returns policy about being 'played' or 'missing parts', DLC could fit into at least one of these categorys.



I agree it may benefit the companies in the long run, but that doesn't make it right. On top of this, in the long run it's worse for consumers, as the companies can lie to you even more.

Read it how you want, people doing this are meeting the terms of the agreement. The question really is purely if this is illegal or not, and I do not believe it is as I understand the process. Gamestop charge $5 or $10 (depends on price) to place a pre order. They have your money no matter what after that. A refund will likely only be what you pay when you pick up the game, meaning they keep the reserve payment.


This would be a lot easier if it was run by Ronco. "Buy the food processor and get the strawberry slicer for free. If you are unsatisfied return for a full refund and keep the strawberry slicer!"

 

[Seismica]

I think it's immoral, but not illegal. The codes don't come with the game, they are a seperate entity, and I think they're sent by email.

If they're listed on the invoice with a price of £0.00, then they do indeed count as a seperate purchase. But if it's listed as a promotional offer, it's part of the same purchase, so it has to be returned aswell. But they can't tell if the code is unused, so it's difficult to police.

To help figure this out;

Has anybody tried breaking the 'buy 3 for the price of 2' deals? I mean, you could buy 3 items and then return the two most expensive ones, therefore getting the third free. I'm thinking there is things in place to prevent that, and i'm thinking Amazon, Game, Gamestop etc. aren't stupid enough to let this one pass them by, they will have thought of it.

 

[eSZee]

I look forward to that day, no way PD are going to make it impossible for true GT fans to collect all the cars.

True fans? Most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. If you were a true fan you'd have bought the SPECIAL EDITION or pre ordered from ever place with a bonus. I hate when people classify themselves or others are true fans. You're a true fan based on what? Your idea of a true fan?

As far as i know, it's only free if you bought a copy of the game. The reserve fee, if exists, isn't related.

If i bought a PS3 and i was given a game free, if i was to return the PS3, i would have to return the game also.

Theft is illegal, deliberately stealing DLC is theft. People here are talking about deliberately 'playing' the system to get free DLC, what they are doing is theft.

I'm not trying to be the grump, but stealing anything from the company that is supplying us with a product as good as GT is wrong.

Yes, because the game has monetary value and it's part of a bundle. All stores have return policies concerning included games and or other valued items.

Karma isn't that good.

Maybe their PS3 will die on release day, now that would be justice.

Or maybe some poor kid will go to thier local store with all their pennies saved up to find out the games out of stock.

To all those stealing DLC, think of the children!!

Now it's becoming rather obvious that you're just butthurt about someone getting more than you for nothing. If I have to pay for all the copies I ordered, that's fine with me, I wouldn;t have decided to do so unless I was willing to pay for them.
I hope karma bites you and blows your PS3 for wishing the same onto others.

Has anybody tried breaking the 'buy 3 for the price of 2' deals? I mean, you could buy 3 items and then return the two most expensive ones, therefore getting the third free. I'm thinking there is things in place to prevent that, and i'm thinking Amazon, Game, Gamestop etc. aren't stupid enough to let this one pass them by, they will have thought of it.

Yeah. I think toy'r'us had this kind of deal. You bought 2 games and the 3rd was free. In order to get any money back you had to return all 3 I think.

 

[yellowclone]

I'm not doing it, but I feel that the DLC thing is a gray area. You are essentially getting the pre-order bonus when you pre-order the game. It does not state that you have to keep the game after the initial purchase. Also, the DLC is no good to the retailer after release day anyway, so I am sure they don't really care about it, but what they do care about is possibly getting over stocked on a game because of that matter (I don't think that will happen for GT5 upon release). It can be good for the retailer because they can say that they sold so many copies on release day, because they probably don't have to go back on their numbers if some of those copies are returned. I personally wouldn't think that it is illegal since they are bonuses, and the store can't use the DLC after the fact anyway. Most likely, like others have said, the bonuses will be available as free DLC after a few months anyway, so it's not a big deal IMO.

As far as the reserve cost being returned also, I would think so, because the reserve price is waived after you purchase the game, therefore if you actually pay for it, and then return it, you should receive your full price in return.

 

[Dave A]

irnbrutwinturbo, look at it this way, the DLC code is a pre-order bonus, once you've returned the game the game can no longer be pre-ordered. Therefore if you use the code or not you are not depriving anyone else of it.

 

[Patrocles]

You can pre-order the standard edition from Newegg for $47.99 currently. No mention of bonus cars though. Just an FYI.

👍
nice! They are beating the Coscto price of $55USD. Thanks for the link!

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

True fans? Most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. If you were a true fan you'd have bought the SPECIAL EDITION or pre ordered from ever place with a bonus. I hate when people classify themselves or others are true fans. You're a true fan based on what? Your idea of a true fan?

Did you even read the full sentence? Did you notice the most important part of the sentence was that PD wouldn't make it impossible for a fan, true or not,(or whatever you define true as) to collect all the cars.
My statement makes no reference to what i think a true fan is or isn't. I'm not saying anyone in here is a true fan or isn't.

Yes, because the game has monetary value and it's part of a bundle. All stores have return policies concerning included games and or other valued items.

If Sony decide to release the bonus cars as DLC and charge for it, do the vouchers then have a monetary value? If the DLC is $5 and i sell it on ebay/forum for $3, i've made a profit at someone elses expense.

Now it's becoming rather obvious that you're just butthurt about someone getting more than you for nothing. If I have to pay for all the copies I ordered, that's fine with me, I wouldn;t have decided to do so unless I was willing to pay for them.
I hope karma bites you and blows your PS3 for wishing the same onto others.

To be frank, i don't give a crap about bonus cars, i don't care if you get all the cars on day one and i don't. If you choose to buy a million copies, i don't care. To think i would care about someone getting more than me says more about you than me.
The original question i posed was one of is it illegal? is it morally right? is it theft.
Did i wish bad karma on anyone, or was it part of a wee joke from the post before mine. You should have a look at that butthurt of yours.

And just for reference, i have reserved my copy of the signature edition. Not because of DLC, in fact i'm not even sure what DLC is included. I'm in a position where i can afford to buy it, and for the value i will get out of the game i've no problem showing appreciation to PD.

irnbrutwinturbo, look at it this way, the DLC code is a pre-order bonus, once you've returned the game the game can no longer be pre-ordered. Therefore if you use the code or not you are not depriving anyone else of it.

Don't get me wrong, i understand exactly how it works. I just wondered if anyone had clarity on the legal side of a form of stealing, and wondered if anyone else in this forum actually had a sense of what is morally right.

 

[GT5SER]

Did you even read the full sentence? Did you notice the most important part of the sentence was that PD wouldn't make it impossible for a fan, true or not,(or whatever you define true as) to collect all the cars.



If Sony decide to release the bonus cars as DLC and charge for it, do the vouchers then have a monetary value?



To be frank, i don't give a crap about bonus cars, i don't care if you get all the cars on day one and i don't. If you choose to buy a million copies, i don't care. To think i would care about someone getting more than me says more about you than me.
The original question i posed was one of is it illegal? is it morally right? is it theft.

And just for reference, i have reserved my copy of the signature edition. Not because of DLC, in fact i'm not even sure what DLC is included. I'm in a position where i can afford to buy it, and for the value i will get out of the game i've no problem showing appreciation to PD.

Well said!

- Jeramy

 

[FlourescentBlak]

Maybe their PS3 will die on release day, now that would be justice.

On the morning GTA4 was released I was using my PS3. When I got back from EB games with the game my ps3 wasn't reading bluerays.

It sucked. I've been waiting on the karma police to remedy this.

 

[eSZee]

The original question i posed was one of is it illegal? is it morally right? is it theft.

Fair enough. Apologies for the misunderstanding.
I don't see it as illegal. I don't see it as theft. I do see it as shady and morally wrong but not in the sense that I'm keeping someone else from using that code.

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

On the morning GTA4 was released I was using my PS3. When I got back from EB games with the game my ps3 wasn't reading bluerays.

It sucked. I've been waiting on the karma police to remedy this.

That was Karma telling you not to go around shooting police officers and stealing cars, .

Well said!

Thanks.

Fair enough. Apologies for the misunderstanding.
I don't see it as illegal. I don't see it as theft. I do see it as shady and morally wrong but not in the sense that I'm keeping someone else from using that code.

So you do have a concious, lol. 👍

 

[FoolKiller]

Don't get me wrong, i understand exactly how it works. I just wondered if anyone had clarity on the legal side of a form of stealing, and wondered if anyone else in this forum actually had a sense of what is morally right.

You weren't looking for clarity or asking to see how anyone else's moral compass was working compared to yours. You declared it theft, piracy, illegal, and in violation of the AUP.

No to be a pure grump, but if your returning a game but keeping the DLC, that is stealing.

Stealing and piracy are the same, and i'm sure piracy is against the AUP.

No curious questions about clarification or what anyone else thought to be found in that. That is why I questioned you on it. In fact, you seemed so sure about this that my initial reaction was to just tell you to hit the Report button so we can move on, but I opted for the second-guessing tactic.

As for my sense of morality: I only have one copy pre-ordered. But I do not care about the DLC cars. I chose where to pre-order based on which store in my area had the CE available first.

Personally all this bonus DLC car talk annoys me because I have grown tired of seeing the pre-order bonus locations posted only to be asked about again two days later, and seeing people question how the process works because it is obvious this is their first pre-order ever. Fortunately, I can ignore most of that stuff because I know there are a few less tactful members of this forum that will respond much more bluntly than I ever would.

 

[dbarrade]

Question about the present (stealth) cars, they appear to be carbon fibre, does this confirm some sort of body replacement option, or do we think this is only for the stealth cars:



It's easier to see if you download the pics in the zip file from the Gran Turismo website.

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

You weren't looking for clarity or asking to see how anyone else's moral compass was working compared to yours. You declared it theft, piracy, illegal, and in violation of the AUP.


No curious questions about clarification or what anyone else thought to be found in that. That is why I questioned you on it. In fact, you seemed so sure about this that my initial reaction was to just tell you to hit the Report button so we can move on, but I opted for the second-guessing tactic.

I am more than happy to be corrected, if the AUP doesn't condone piracy then so be it. The fact i didn't use the report button should make it obvious that my statement was more like a rhetorical question.

Maybe stealing has changed its meaning since last time i checked, if keeping something that you haven't paid for, that isn't actually free, then what do we call it?
The desposit isn't non-refundable in many shops, so your gaining something of value for nothing.

My logic was based on https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=33719 which states that piracy is illegal as a fact.

Maybe the question should be, is collecting bonus DLC via shady practices classed as piracy.

It definately is a grey area, and i personally would not like to be the one promoting methods of avoiding paying for DLC on quite a reputable forum.

I was expecting the conversation to follow the lines of, is it illegal - let's come to a conclusion - not, he's calling me a thief, let's attack him. I should have known better, people love to attack others in here, and often mistake open ended statements as being attacked.

 

[LANDO]

I`ve just reserved this edition for 200 €

 

[Seismica]

I`ve just reserved this edition for 200 €

Must be a standard car.

Anyways... I was sent an email from Amazon.co.uk either yesterday or today, telling me that the release date has been pushed back to the 5th of November Maybe Game/Gamestation etc. got it right. Because the official release may well be pushed back to the Friday.

 

[FoolKiller]

I am more than happy to be corrected, if the AUP doesn't condone piracy then so be it. The fact i didn't use the report button should make it obvious that my statement was more like a rhetorical question.

Maybe stealing has changed its meaning since last time i checked, if keeping something that you haven't paid for, that isn't actually free, then what do we call it?
The desposit isn't non-refundable in many shops, so your gaining something of value for nothing.

In this statement you are still acting as if it is piracy. The bonuses are free, hence bonus. And if it is one of the cards like I got for GT PSP it will say somewhere on it that it is not worth any monetary value.

My logic was based on https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=33719 which states that piracy is illegal as a fact.

Again, here you are acting like it is piracy, as a fact.

Maybe the question should be, is collecting bonus DLC via shady practices classed as piracy.

Yes, if you were looking to start a discussion about the legitimacy of the practice this kind of statement does not appear to accuse anyone of piracy.

It definately is a grey area, and i personally would not like to be the one promoting methods of avoiding paying for DLC on quite a reputable forum.

Again, there is no added cost to these. The price of a pre-order with these cars is the same as picking the game up in stores a week later.

I was expecting the conversation to follow the lines of, is it illegal - let's come to a conclusion - not, he's calling me a thief, let's attack him. I should have known better, people love to attack others in here, and often mistake open ended statements as being attacked.

There was nothing open-ended about your initial statements. By the way they were structured, worded, and punctuated they were declarative.

 

[darkblade986]

This, of course, assumes that your store in question will allow the refund of the opened product or of a product with used code.


The DLC codes are given as part of the purchase of the product. "Free" or not, it is part of the collective price you paid. If you use the code, you have now rendered that part unusable to any future person, meaning you don't have the exact same product as before. Defrauding the company by telling them that you didn't use the code wouldn't necessarily be piracy, but it's definitely theft by fraud.


Why do you not want to support Polyphony anyways? You're getting plenty of other stuff well worth the extra $40. Why do you wish to deprive Polyphony of their earnings?


EDIT: And how do you even know that the term "Free," as they use it, doesn't just refer to its use on the store? Most DLC like that you'd have to pay for, but they're giving you a code to get it for $0.00 instead.

 

[FoolKiller]

This, of course, assumes that your store in question will allow the refund of the opened product or of a product with used code.

Which the stores they were discussing do.

The DLC codes are given as part of the purchase of the product. "Free" or not, it is part of the collective price you paid. If you use the code, you have now rendered that part unusable to any future person, meaning you don't have the exact same product as before.

Um, they are for pre-orders only. They are already unusable to any future person as they won't be included when the game is resold. That is how a pre-order bonus works.

Defrauding the company by telling them that you didn't use the code wouldn't necessarily be piracy, but it's definitely theft by fraud.

Did they ask? I already know they didn't because they can't sell the codes again.

Why do you not want to support Polyphony anyways? You're getting plenty of other stuff well worth the extra $40. Why do you wish to deprive Polyphony of their earnings?

Maybe you should read everything I have said before asking me something like this.

As for my sense of morality: I only have one copy pre-ordered. But I do not care about the DLC cars. I chose where to pre-order based on which store in my area had the CE available first.

Personally all this bonus DLC car talk annoys me because I have grown tired of seeing the pre-order bonus locations posted only to be asked about again two days later, and seeing people question how the process works because it is obvious this is their first pre-order ever. Fortunately, I can ignore most of that stuff because I know there are a few less tactful members of this forum that will respond much more bluntly than I ever would.

EDIT: And how do you even know that the term "Free," as they use it, doesn't just refer to its use on the store? Most DLC like that you'd have to pay for, but they're giving you a code to get it for $0.00 instead.

It is a bonus for pre-ordering. If it were anything else then it would mean they are selling a lesser value product to everyone else for the same price.

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

In this statement you are still acting as if it is piracy. The bonuses are free, hence bonus. And if it is one of the cards like I got for GT PSP it will say somewhere on it that it is not worth any monetary value.

I believe it is a form of piracy. If the card states it has no monetary value, doesn't actually mean it has no value. If it had no value people wouldn't be pre-ordering to get something of no value.

Again, there is no added cost to these. The price of a pre-order with these cars is the same as picking the game up in stores a week later.

The cost exists somewere, even if its just printing out new cards and generating codes. It is costing somebody somewhere. Even the legal requirements set by PD have cost something to arrange.

 

[Kryz11]

Question about the present (stealth) cars, they appear to be carbon fibre, does this confirm some sort of body replacement option, or do we think this is only for the stealth cars:



It's easier to see if you download the pics in the zip file from the Gran Turismo website.

Body kits and Race kits will be two diffrent options. You can buy some or most cars in GT5 and buy the race car kit, and for some or most there will be also a body kit option, front panets, side panels, wings.. About Carbon Fiber, I am not sure how many cars will have that options.

 

[FoolKiller]

I believe it is a form of piracy. If the card states it has no monetary value, doesn't actually mean it has no value. If it had no value people wouldn't be pre-ordering to get something of no value.

Your belief does not make it so, and that was my main point after the way your initial statement came off. That doesn't mean it is not piracy either.

The cost exists somewere, even if its just printing out new cards and generating codes. It is costing somebody somewhere. Even the legal requirements set by PD have cost something to arrange.

My statement was in response to your comment about people avoiding paying for DLC. I was just pointing out that is not the case here. There is no additional retail cost to the consumer.


Anyway I think the end point is that we don't know whether it is piracy or not. If we can agree on that I think we are basically done.

 

[Coxis]

Must be a standard car.

👍