GT5 Sound Thread

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I've always wanted to know why a piece of software cannot be made that allows you to merely record the car running up the entire RPM range (say in 4th gear) and then it puts it all together. (this instead of recording the car at various RPM points) It would simplify the process seemingly.
 
The problem with the sound is the fact that PD didn't hire all of you to do the recording/design. I mean, you are all pro's right?

It is my dream that in-game, i can purchase a Honda civic, cut the OEM springs down so that i can drop the car to the floor, put a body kit on it (but not paint the new panels because i don't have the money) and then install a 6" muffler tip and have the glorious sound of my 4 cylinder econo-engine reproduce accurately in-game

SARCASM
 
RedBaron
Because they are using barely three samples for whole engine range. One for idle, then one from 2k rpm and one from 4k rpm. Audio engine blends them gradually as you rev the engine in the game. But mechanical complexity of real engine, accessories and exhaust produces so much different and distinctive sound in every rpm range so this is simply not sufficient method to replicate the real sound and therefore can be immediately heard as fake sound, especially if you fasten that 4k rpm sample into 8k or similar engine speed. If they use more samples throughout the revs, engine sound would be almost perfect, especially if they use the correct sample for highest revs under full load - really meaty sound. There is no synthetiser as someone thinks, only old good samples able to do their work well. But there are too few of them, they are very miserably used and probably miserably recorded too. That's the Achilles' heel of GT engine sound and only painful and careful rerecording and using of for example 800 - 1600 - 3200 - 4800 - 6000 - 8000 rpm samples could make the engines in the game sound properly. There should be variation between cruising samples and full throttle samples as well. Then it will be perfect.
Click to expand...

Oh, I thought they just didnt really know how record the cars, so why is it that they do it that way?

That makes no sense to me, NFS Shift has some great car sounds, over done yes but it does sound great.
 
Smoke&Slide
The WRX STI don't sound anything like, how that flat four should be.I bought, a 95 N reg imported STI 555 4 door with a straight through, HKS full system & modified exhaust manifolds.Plus a green air filter & dump valve, i was thinking about remapping it but wasn't used enough.Anyway you could hear it, from at least 3/4 of a mile away & not at full throttle sometimes.That is the 2.0ltr boxer 4 cyl, red top engine.

S&S.
Click to expand...

That's how the newer stock Imprezas sound. Go have a listen to the ones on Top Gear. With an aftermarket exhaust it does sound different
The older ones sound much better, even stock
 
IKizzLE
Why cant Polyphony just go get some top of the line audio recording equipment and throw these cars on a dyno....jesus...
Click to expand...

Here is PD recording the Vector for GT2 on a dyno, and yet the real car sounds like a vaccum cleaner! :dopey:

 
Wow, Taku Imasaki is in there. So he's been there since the beginning.
 
letdown427
(I believe that) Live For Speed uses a system whereby they have basically the sound of one cylinder firing synthesised, which is then adjusted based on the various engine parameters etc. Then of course depending on how many cylinders and the RPM, you get your engine note.

Given it's only really done by 1 bloke, it works surprisingly well. It's by no means perfect across the board, but the engine's do have a bit of character, and I can't help but imagine a group of engineers at PD could take this idea and really make something special out of it.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's quite a primitive synth system (compared to, say, a full first-principles model, that would never run in real time anyway), but it works pretty well for what it is. The built-in editor is fun to play with, and I have several versions of the sound for each car - e.g. full race, road etc.



The L and S for each section allows you to load the sample you want to use, and then (re)save it.

Originally, the sample for the engine / exhaust sound was just a 20 ms (or so) burst of noise. Somebody from the LFS forums (I forget who, but I think he's credited in the game now) messed about with different samples, and found that the length wasn't important. He tried changing the "colour" of the noise, with interesting effects. Anyway, he spent a lot of time improving the sounds, and they were eventually included in an official patch.

This kind of pulsetrain / time-stretched granular synthesis creates some interesting sidebands from the source sample - that is, it's heavily dependent on the frequency content of the pulse sample, and how that varies with time within the sample. Given that it is just noise, it is possibly the single greatest source of error in the sounds.
The pulse sound seems to go through several filters and aggregations according to the settings seen above. It's basically the individual pulses in the manifold (at the cylinder head, I think) and their aggregate (individually delayed to get the correct sound) at the collector, then the exhaust tip is the collector sound "filtered" some more.

----------------------------

Going the synth route (for GT) means the designers have to tweak a vast array of settings to approximate the recordings, rather than use the recordings themselves directly in the game. The advantages and disadvantages with that are probably self evident.

The really interesting thing is that, from one 20 ms sample (or several, across the rev-range), a potentially infinite array of textures and tones can be obtained this way - and you'll have to use a different sample for each car, or if you change the cams, valve sizes, or (to a lesser extent) bore and stroke. In other words, perfect for simulating lots of individual mods. I guess the PS3's lack of memory has really penalised the sound guys, so that only three samples can be used per car. I wouldn't be surprised if opponent cars use fewer samples (in GT2, opponents still used the synthesised sound.)

CoolColJ
Here is PD recording the Vector for GT2 on a dyno, and yet the real car sounds like a vaccum cleaner! :dopey:

[vid]
Click to expand...

GT1 was near enough fully synthesised, so these were the first samples they collected, and GT2 did not disappoint on the sound front, for a Playstation game, that is.

I know some of these recorded sounds (processed into loops) are still being used: the Tuscan is one I recognised in GT5:P, sadly by the fact it's such a badly made loop!

Great find, by the way!
 
Griffith500
iRacing is the best of the bunch for sure.
It doesn't sound like the one in GT5 is revving past 5k or so! Cross-plane V8s take on a whole new level of meanness above 8k :trouble:
Forza's sounds like a single cylinder at times! :confused:
Click to expand...

Yeah the sound production or hotted up cross-plane V8s make at 8k is usually a loud bang followed by swearing :grumpy: The only cross-plane V8s that can survive above 8k are usually special race versions ie Nascar/aussie V8 super car big bore/short stroke combos.
 
Yep little 289/302 windsors can rev quite high and 283/302 chevs too. Launching at those high revs makes me wince everytime.
 
LFA's final engine/exhaust sound tuned by Yamaha's music division :)
Faster than the GT-R too, I expect it to be one of the dominant cars in GT5!
Even for drifting.

Sounds so much like the Carrera GT - and both seem to have the same howl outside, while inside you don't hear that tone, puzzling effect
[YOUTUBEHD]A5R-oi91bd4[/YOUTUBEHD]

More tests. On dyno - sound to die for! Downshifts cause major arousal :)
PD could just sample this dyno run and use it.... :D
[YOUTUBEHD]ho1KSeiWV4Q[/YOUTUBEHD]
 
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The LFA is the car I'm most excited for and is the car I'm hoping they nail in the sound dept. That thing may give me a crisis and if I drive it in GT5 with my G27 then all I'm saying is......"it may explode!".

I wish I had $400k!
 
Eunos_Cosmo
I've always wanted to know why a piece of software cannot be made that allows you to merely record the car running up the entire RPM range (say in 4th gear) and then it puts it all together. (this instead of recording the car at various RPM points) It would simplify the process seemingly.
Click to expand...

You should have consistent loop from various rpm, at least three seconds of the same sound to be any good. Then you blend them on the fly and the more samples you have, the better and trustworthier the resulting sound is.

It's impossible to recreate it from one revving up sample.

CoolColJ
That's how the newer stock Imprezas sound. Go have a listen to the ones on Top Gear. With an aftermarket exhaust it does sound different
The older ones sound much better, even stock
Click to expand...

They stopped to use uneven length of intake tubes around year 2003. Since that the burbling subaru sound is away but engine got some better torque characteristics at least.

---

Regarding LFS engine synthetiser - That's OK for me because that sound system is on par with graphics. But GT is using photorealistic graphics and sh...y sounds to that. And it really hurts...

---

Regarding LFA, that thing is technical masterpiece but for me its look is only little more attractive than cheap Toyota Celica.
 
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I hope that the sounds are more realisitic. Especially on the V10 cars such as the Vipers and Gallardos. Its has never really been a GT strong point. One of the rare cases where Forza goes one up over GT.
 
RedBaron
You should have consistent loop from various rpm, at least three seconds of the same sound to be any good. Then you blend them on the fly and the more samples you have, the better and trustworthier the resulting sound is.

It's impossible to recreate it from one revving up sample.

...
Click to expand...

And this is why sample-based methods are also limited. You only ever reproduce then engine sound as it was during the recording session: i.e. stationary; not rising, not falling.

Recordings of run-ups and run-downs can be applied to "colour" the stationary samples to get a more convincing effect, but it's still cheating :dopey:

I'm not surprised by Yamaha getting the exhaust sound tuned - I bet the target was F1-style, similar to what Ferrari does with their V8s these days - a lot of car manufacturers do the same (tuning sound, I mean); Audi is one that I can think of, off the top of my head; Honda is another (new L series intake); Lotus another (cabin sound) etc.


And it stands to reason that if you build an engine to rev, it will last longer up there. We were commenting on the NASCAR equivalents in different games; these sit up near 9k "all day long" and it is that sound that I was expecting, not that of a generic US lump which'd throw a rod at the faintest sniff of 7k+ (I'm not hatin' - simply statin' :p)
There were plenty of (granted, race-spec - e.g. Lancia D50) V8s from the 50s that could rev to 9k; they were abandoned in favour of the flat-plane's more sane exhaust routing "requirements" (as perceived at the time.) At least until BRM decided they wanted to make a 16 cylinder again; their H16 (two 1.5 litre flat eights, stacked and geared together) used cross-plane cranks, revved up to 11k and occasionally threw a counter-balance or three :D
Audi and BMW both produce high-revving cross-plane V8s for the road; then again, they're only 4.0 / 4.2 litres (244 / 256 ci) - the Maserati / Ferrari in the 8C is a 4.7 (287) and "only" revs to 7500+.

They all (except the Alfa) have that mean howl that creeps in around 8000, which is missing in the onboard video posted of the GT5 NASCAR car.

Interestingly, the latest batch of Muscle have some "new" tech / engineering that may hold promise. Though nobody will care, because it's "inferior" to the tried and true ;)
 
Griffith500
And this is why sample-based methods are also limited. You only ever reproduce then engine sound as it was during the recording session: i.e. stationary; not rising, not falling.

Recordings of run-ups and run-downs can be applied to "colour" the stationary samples to get a more convincing effect, but it's still cheating :dopey:
Click to expand...


I believe if you had a good audio engine with a quality pitch shifting algorithm and properly recorded and mixed samples for every thousand rpms, the progression would be smooth and you'd have all the nuances throughout the rpm range, so that the end result would indeed sound probably 90% in regards to the real sound.(quite enough to fool you);)
p.s. some games, which don't need to be overly accurate, do use just one looping accelerating sample per whole range(ie. GTA titles)...
 
speedfreak69
I believe if you had a good audio engine with a quality pitch shifting algorithm and properly recorded and mixed samples for every thousand rpms, the progression would be smooth and you'd have all the nuances throughout the rpm range, so that the end result would indeed sound probably 90% in regards to the real sound.(quite enough to fool you);)
p.s. some games, which don't need to be overly accurate, do use just one looping accelerating sample per whole range(ie. GTA titles)...
Click to expand...

It'll be hard to keep all the samples in phase with each other, especially since the waveform will change when pitch shifted and then when crossfaded, you get cancellations and additions

Just sample every 100rpm, and don't bother crossfading, just do switches.
Brute force can work well up to a degree as witnessed in the 1 to 2 gig Piano sample libraries with velocity crossfaded layers, but still a 100 MB physically modelled piano sound is superior for expression

Off course games don't allocate more than 100MB for sounds usually. Consoles rarely go over 2MB....
Forza3, iRacing and so on, rarely have as many different types of cars as GT5 will have in a race, so they can get away with more memory per car. The other games are on a PC so it's a moot point.
Remeber back in GT1 and GT2, only your car had its sounds, the AI cars had a generic hum. GT2 was slightly better here with more variety in the generic hum, but there just wasn't enough memory to go around. GT3 and GT4 on the PS2 improved here. GT5 on the PS3 is better still, but still probably not enough as well with all the other stuff increasing in size as well. At least the sounds will be 16 bit now, vs the 8 bit or so in the older GT games
 
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Not to mention it'd actually be better to have a sound which doesn't need to fool the listeners into thinking it's real.

One of the major problems with using few samples, other than phase alignment, is that the relative arrangement of pulses over 4 cycles changes with rpm.

If we imagine that each vertical line (|) is a cycle boundary, representing an ignition event in a 4 cylinder, four stroke engine and an asterisk (*) represents the point the exhaust pulse exits the exhaust (say)...
Taking a (fictional) manifold where cylinders 1 and 3 feed to a runner twice the length of those for cylinders 2 and 4, and a firing sequence of 1, 3, 2, 4:

At 3000 rpm it might look like this:

|-*-----|-*-----|*------|*------|-*-----|-*-----|*------|*------|

The pulse separations are: 8, 7, 8, 9 (eighths of a cycle, or multiples of 22.5°)

but at 6000 rpm it might look more like this:

|---*---|---*---|-*-----|-*-----|---*---|---*---|-*-----|-*-----|

Note the delays are twice as long relative to the cycle length, owing to the doubling in rpm.

The pulse separations are now: 8, 6, 8, 10

So straight pitch shifting of the 3000 rpm sample would not give the correct texture (assuming a spectrum-preserving pitch bend is used) at 6000 rpm. A new "sample" is required. This difference in pulse spacing is exemplified by acceleration or deceleration of the engine speed.
 
I had a look in my GTR Evolution sound folder, and the sounds for 1 car can range from 10-50+ MB. Sounds for GTR2 a little smaller at around 5-10MB.
And it only used 3-4 samples for the whole rev range for on and off throttle

I don't think GT5 will allocate that much for sounds, considering it only has 256MB for game data, and can have up to 16 unique cars on track at once
 
Just thought I would pop end and talk about some GT sound. I noticed something today that I haven't noticed in GT5P. Eiger reverse in a F430, when going up the hills taking the inside line when I was crossing straight through the curves going uphill the studdering I was hearing was amazing. Seeing the visual cue of the car hopping from the road conditions to hearing the exhaust note blurburing (is the best word I can come up with at the moment) was incredible imo.
 
A dandy physics lesson to consider: The higher the temperature, the faster sound travels. The difference in speeds means that there is a difference in frequencies. As the exhaust temperature, and the temperature in the air changes, so will the exhaust notes. Keeping a dead accurate representation of car sounds is kind of hard when the car sound is constantly changing. Also, as mentioned above, there can't be too much space allocated for car sounds.
 
SHIRAKAWA Akira
It could be that sound files for GTR are inefficiently large, however.
Click to expand...

It's not just engine sounds though, it covers, exhaust pops/crackles, and other various sounds. What's funny is that some of the upper RPM sounds are pre pitch-shifted instead of a proper high RPM sample! :crazy:
There is a bit of variety to add variation, which is welcome. Something that GT5 needs

Off course being easy to reach wav files makes it easy to mod. I might try substitue the LFA sound into of one these cars for laughs :D

For F3000

FOLDER E:\Games\GTR-Evolution\GameData\Sounds\Car\F3000\ 107 54,758,234

FILE 128,044 brakes_high_ex.wav
FILE 128,044 brakes_high_in.wav
FILE 76,844 brakes_low_ex.wav
FILE 76,844 brakes_low_in.wav
FILE 138,260 f3000_backfire_1.wav
FILE 66,238 f3000_backfire_2.wav
FILE 66,240 f3000_backfire_3.wav
FILE 778,536 F3000_dirt_roll_int.wav
FILE 17,362 f3000_downshift_1.wav
FILE 20,960 f3000_downshift_2.wav
FILE 19,968 f3000_downshift_3.wav
FILE 1,848,680 f3000_freehigh.wav
FILE 934,160 f3000_freelow.wav
FILE 818,428 f3000_freemax.wav
FILE 381,316 F3000_grass_roll_ext.wav
FILE 558,284 F3000_grass_roll_int.wav
FILE 779,300 F3000_grass_skid_ext.wav
FILE 1,558,556 F3000_grass_skid_int.wav
FILE 413,612 F3000_gravel_roll_ext.wav
FILE 1,209,708 F3000_gravel_roll_int.wav
FILE 779,342 F3000_gravel_skid_ext.wav
FILE 1,558,640 F3000_gravel_skid_int.wav
FILE 1,804,680 F3000_idle.wav
FILE 198,504 F3000_impact_car_heavy.wav
FILE 69,936 F3000_impact_car_light.wav
FILE 81,408 F3000_impact_car_medium.wav
FILE 70,908 F3000_impact_car_tap.wav
FILE 76,528 F3000_impact_car_verylight.wav
FILE 30,808 F3000_impact_cone.wav
FILE 365,168 F3000_impact_wall_heavy.wav
FILE 97,628 F3000_impact_wall_light.wav
FILE 113,692 F3000_impact_wall_medium.wav
FILE 48,892 F3000_impact_wall_tap.wav
FILE 59,096 F3000_impact_wall_verylight.wav
FILE 134,048 F3000_impactex_car_heavy.wav
FILE 67,480 F3000_impactex_car_light.wav
FILE 102,092 F3000_impactex_car_medium.wav
FILE 33,296 F3000_impactex_car_tap.wav
FILE 57,332 F3000_impactex_car_verylight.wav
FILE 31,140 F3000_impactex_cone.wav
FILE 143,936 F3000_impactex_wall_heavy.wav
FILE 124,392 F3000_impactex_wall_light.wav
FILE 101,644 F3000_impactex_wall_medium.wav
FILE 43,994 F3000_impactex_wall_tap.wav
FILE 66,436 F3000_impactex_wall_verylight.wav
FILE 23,350 F3000_limitertoggle_ext.wav
FILE 23,350 F3000_limitertoggle_int.wav
FILE 1,733,508 F3000_offhigh.wav
FILE 667,964 F3000_offlow.wav
FILE 1,370,500 f3000_offmax.wav
FILE 1,624,236 F3000_offmid.wav
FILE 1,100,236 F3000_on_fire_ext.wav
FILE 1,100,236 F3000_on_fire_int.wav
FILE 1,848,700 F3000_onhigh.wav
FILE 1,051,400 F3000_onlow.wav
FILE 1,848,700 f3000_onmax.wav
FILE 2,427,596 F3000_onmid.wav
FILE 1,247,636 F3000_rain.wav
FILE 383,356 F3000_revlimiter_ext.wav
FILE 383,356 F3000_revlimiter_int.wav
FILE 305,500 F3000_road_roll_ext.wav
FILE 690,988 F3000_road_roll_ext_wet.wav
FILE 1,473,536 F3000_road_roll_int.wav
FILE 1,653,980 F3000_road_roll_int_wet.wav
FILE 316,756 F3000_road_scrub_ext.wav
FILE 806,740 F3000_road_scrub_int.wav
FILE 510,280 F3000_road_skid_ext.wav
FILE 359,978 F3000_road_skid_ext_wet.wav
FILE 1,020,516 F3000_road_skid_int.wav
FILE 719,912 F3000_road_skid_int_wet.wav
FILE 1,903,620 F3000_roadstones.wav
FILE 951,832 F3000_roadstones_ext.wav
FILE 252,964 F3000_rumble.wav
FILE 252,964 F3000_rumble_ext.wav
FILE 326,036 F3000_scrape_ext.wav
FILE 326,036 F3000_scrape_int.wav
FILE 213,252 f3000_start.wav
FILE 722,448 f3000_startup.wav
FILE 18,870 f3000_upshift_1.wav
FILE 21,730 f3000_upshift_2.wav
FILE 26,480 f3000_upshift_3.wav
FILE 12,640 f3000_upshift_4.wav
FILE 68,050 f3000_whistle.wav
FILE 138,260 f3000ex_backfire_1.wav
FILE 66,238 f3000ex_backfire_2.wav
FILE 66,240 f3000ex_backfire_3.wav
FILE 25,290 f3000EX_downshift_1.wav
FILE 51,538 f3000EX_downshift_5.wav
FILE 28,380 f3000EX_downshift_7.wav
FILE 409,236 f3000ex_freehigh.wav
FILE 467,102 f3000ex_freelow.wav
FILE 924,368 f3000ex_freemax.wav
FILE 902,362 F3000ex_idle.wav
FILE 523,666 F3000ex_offhigh.wav
FILE 337,692 F3000ex_offlow.wav
FILE 685,272 f3000ex_offmax.wav
FILE 730,236 F3000ex_offmid.wav
FILE 924,368 F3000ex_onhigh.wav
FILE 529,714 F3000ex_onlow.wav
FILE 684,478 f3000ex_onmax.wav
FILE 523,228 F3000ex_onmid.wav
FILE 106,648 f3000ex_start.wav
FILE 342,084 f3000ex_startup.wav
FILE 51,538 f3000EX_upshift_1.wav
FILE 57,842 f3000EX_upshift_3.wav
FILE 61,280 f3000EX_upshift_4.wav
FILE 51,538 f3000EX_upshift_5.wav


For Mini Cooper

FOLDER E:\Games\GTR-Evolution\GameData\Sounds\Car\Cooper\ 42 13,525,972
FILE 64,044 cooper_backfire_1.wav
FILE 54,260 cooper_backfire_2.wav
FILE 270,976 cooper_backfire_3.wav
FILE 32,044 cooper_backfire_ext_1.wav
FILE 27,152 cooper_backfire_ext_2.wav
FILE 135,510 cooper_backfire_ext_3.wav
FILE 50,816 cooper_downshift_1.wav
FILE 76,756 cooper_downshift_2.wav
FILE 52,204 cooper_downshift_3.wav
FILE 25,430 cooper_downshift_ext_1.wav
FILE 38,400 cooper_downshift_ext_2.wav
FILE 52,204 cooper_downshift_ext_3.wav
FILE 226,100 cooper_freehigh.wav
FILE 605,872 cooper_freelow.wav
FILE 90,012 cooper_idle.wav
FILE 459,332 cooper_offhigh.wav
FILE 410,084 cooper_offlow.wav
FILE 447,672 cooper_offmid.wav
FILE 778,532 cooper_onhigh.wav
FILE 350,612 cooper_onlow.wav
FILE 1,194,196 cooper_onmid.wav
FILE 1,804,820 cooper_onveryhigh.wav
FILE 816,044 cooper_start.wav
FILE 816,044 cooper_startup.wav
FILE 58,080 cooper_upshift_1.wav
FILE 58,080 cooper_upshift_2.wav
FILE 58,076 cooper_upshift_3.wav
FILE 23,870 cooper_upshift_ext_1.wav
FILE 30,934 cooper_upshift_ext_2.wav
FILE 29,060 cooper_upshift_ext_3.wav
FILE 113,152 cooperex_freehigh.wav
FILE 302,608 cooperex_freelow.wav
FILE 45,028 cooperex_idle.wav
FILE 229,290 cooperex_offhigh.wav
FILE 204,828 cooperex_offlow.wav
FILE 226,562 cooperex_offmid.wav
FILE 389,288 cooperex_onhigh.wav
FILE 175,024 cooperex_onlow.wav
FILE 597,120 cooperex_onmid.wav
FILE 473,768 cooperex_onveryhigh.wav
FILE 816,044 cooperex_start.wav
FILE 816,044 cooperex_startup.wav
 

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