GT6 VS Project Cars

  • Thread starter Thread starter oik01
  • 167 comments
  • 18,383 views
It'll never happen. GT is one of the only simulator-type games remaining that doesn't have telemetry...

http://www.gran-turismo.com/hk/products/gt6/
gt5 has data logger and these features are meant to be implemented in future updates of gt6, we have to wait and see.

even if gt5 is a simple simulator, the gt5 mercedes sls amg challenge was a direct comparation with real/virtual and the result was clearly positive

https://www.gtplanet.net/kw-7-post-rig-gt6/
"Michael Grassi, Head of Motorsport Sales and Technical Support at KW Automotive GmbH, it was revealed that players will be able to fine tune suspension systems using KW’s “7-post” test environment"
it wasnt said by Sony or PD, but can happen, would fit perfectly in a data logger/gps visualiser meant to improve real world lap times
 
First off I'm a WMD member.

Is Project Cars ever going to release?
Yes.

Or are they still sucking money from their fans?
The budget is met, so we can't pay anymore. So there have never been any sucking of money. There is a budget and it has been met.

What I find suspicious, we were promised a 360 and PS3 near a year ago. A Wii U ver 6 months ago. Still, we have nothing.
The PS3 and 360 versions have been dropped, by vote of the WMD members

I find it odd they continually release renders, yet I find zero reason to believe their legitimate.
They are real. When making a software program, be it business application or a game, the process consist of thousands of changes of code over a long period of time. The code should be compile-able every day, if you are doing it right, and every day you get a build of working software. This build is then, in pCARS case, tested by WMD, every day. So you get a continuously update of content, assets and features in the game.

Further more, how are they able to obtain Porshe and other licenses with their tiny budget too.
You are very correct that they cannot get Porsche licens, for the same reason that GT does not have Porsche. If you think you have seen a Porsche in a pCARS screen shot or video, it must have been a RUF. A list of cars in pCARS can be found here: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/project-cars-car-list.305494/
 
I have to say, I am very impressed with the patience and professionalism each and every PCars investor shows when responding to even the most troll-like posts. I really regret not buying in to this project and seeing what is going on behind the scenes, it must be very exciting!
 
Yes Johnny,I have to agree with you. Wish I jumped on board this when I had the chance. Jealous to say the least.
Waiting patiently for release on my very seldom used PS4.
 
even if gt5 is a simple simulator, the gt5 mercedes sls amg challenge was a direct comparation with real/virtual and the result was clearly positive

Are you talking about this?



Could you explain what that demonstrates about GT5's simulation?

I think having real race drivers in the same cars on the same tracks as in real life is a good way to test a simulation's veracity. Sticking some gamers in an SLS to do some acceleration tests doesn't seem that flash.


See Edit.

https://www.gtplanet.net/kw-7-post-rig-gt6/
"Michael Grassi, Head of Motorsport Sales and Technical Support at KW Automotive GmbH, it was revealed that players will be able to fine tune suspension systems using KW’s “7-post” test environment"
it wasnt said by Sony or PD, but can happen, would fit perfectly in a data logger/gps visualiser meant to improve real world lap times

It certainly would fit nicely.

I suspect they're having difficulty finding the correct fudge factor to make their "physics" spit out real numbers. That sort of thing happens when you say, have 0 degrees of camber as optimum.

Which is exactly the sort of thing having hundreds of people testing on WMD is supposed to catch. And the sort of things that they have been catching, there's been numerous "hey, that's not right!" bugs that have been identified by members and removed, and more undergoing investigation.

If GT6 ever gets telemetry or it's 7 post rig, then perhaps we can talk about which is more physically accurate. Until then, only one of these two games has the tools to even begin to compare itself with reality.


Edit: I found another video that is probably what you're talking about.



Still, DC on a wet track versus some gamers in perfect conditions. I'd have said that them being close is a sign that Sony managed the offset of the tyres well, not anything else. The conditions are just too different to read anything into the physics.
 
Last edited:
I have to say, I am very impressed with the patience and professionalism each and every PCars investor shows when responding to even the most troll-like posts. I really regret not buying in to this project and seeing what is going on behind the scenes, it must be very exciting!

I'm surprised as well. Especially, when all the Shift 3 and many other assumptions can be addressed by spending 10 minutes in the pCARS thread on this very site. Someone can always find a release date by using... oh, I don't know... the internet. Well done investors.👍
 
Having a 7-post rig in the game would be useless, 99.9% of the people who play this game would not have a clue as to what to do with it. 7 post rigs do not solve issues, they answer questions, if you have all the numbers and know how to run the test. I'm an engineer and I find the math involved tedious and boring...it's too much like work.
 
Having a 7-post rig in the game would be useless, 99.9% of the people who play this game would not have a clue as to what to do with it. 7 post rigs do not solve issues, they answer questions, if you have all the numbers and know how to run the test. I'm an engineer and I find the math involved tedious and boring...it's too much like work.
IIRC the way it'll work in the game if and when it ever arrives, is by analyzing a recorded lap, presumably offline only. I can see those that love to get into the nitty gritty of tuning using it but if this is the way it works it'll be awfully cumbersome. Run and save a lap, load 7 post rig (if its available in offline mode at the track - not likely) or quit back to main menu, enter 7 post rig, run analysis of lap and gather data, make changes to your setup, rinse and repeat.

Unless its usable right in the "pits" while you're at a track, I can't see it being any more than window dressing for all but a small minority of players.
 
Last edited:
Here is just a little sample of data from a 7 post rig. I am a major geek and I find this kind of stuff cool, but I don't have a clue of what most of it means since I an electrical engineer, not a mechanical engineer.

7-post_tools_640x302.jpg


I had a prof back in 2nd year college that would wander around the lab while we were doing T&M (test and measurement) and occasionally ask someone "What are you measuring and what do you expect to find?" The point being, if you don't know what you are looking for, how are you going to know when or if you found it? Like I said above, T&M is not going to fix anything, tell you how to fix it or what is wrong. You have to know what you are looking for and how to find it. You take the data, adjust the correct parameters in the correct amounts and the system will tell you if it will do what you want.
As cool as I think this is, I just don't see many people taking the time or putting in the effort to learn enough engineering to make use of it. I also do not see GT's sim model being "deep" enough as is to use it even if they tried to include it. What I think they meant by mentioning the 7 post rig was that the results or your suspension tuning in the game would be based off of results they got from the rig, not that we would get to use it. I could be wrong though, it certainly wouldn't be the first time :)
 
IIRC the way it'll work in the game if and when it ever arrives, is by analyzing a recorded lap, presumably offline only. I can see those that love to get into the nitty gritty of tuning using it but if this is the way it works it'll be awfully cumbersome. Run and save a lap, load 7 post rig (if its available in offline mode at the track - not likely) or quit back to main menu, enter 7 post rig, run analysis of lap and gather data, make changes to your setup, rinse and repeat.
It's certainly better than user trial and error. "Huh... is this better? Worse? Any different??"

Plus, for those who know how to tune cars, this has to be a nice tool. I'll admit that my tuning skills don't go much past gear settings and camber, so I rely on tuner advice on things like making the Audi R8 Team Phoenix driveable. Then I can usually ferret out some tweaks to suit my driving style better. But start from scratch? Not happening. This is why I want to see this thing implemented. It might actually save tuners and wannabe tuners a lot of work.

By the way... P CARS release date? 2014. :p
 
It's certainly better than user trial and error. "Huh... is this better? Worse? Any different??"

Plus, for those who know how to tune cars, this has to be a nice tool. I'll admit that my tuning skills don't go much past gear settings and camber, so I rely on tuner advice on things like making the Audi R8 Team Phoenix driveable. Then I can usually ferret out some tweaks to suit my driving style better. But start from scratch? Not happening. This is why I want to see this thing implemented. It might actually save tuners and wannabe tuners a lot of work.

By the way... P CARS release date? 2014. :p
Your tuning inexperience is on display with this response. A cumbersome tool that lengthens the time to tune, and might only be usable offline will not speed up tuning, it'll slow it to a snails pace. What you call "trial and error" is actually experience and most experienced tuners can do one or two laps and have a pretty good idea what needs to be done to the car, in addition to the standard transmission, drivetrain and engine tuning that works on every car. I'm just speculating of course as are you, but it sure will be interesting to see if and how it works given that camber and ride height appear broken at the moment. I suspect that's one of the reasons we don't have it at this point.
 
Well, since about all you do is speculate negatively, someone has to provide balance. ;)

A cumbersome tool that lengthens the time to tune, and might only be usable offline will not speed up tuning, it'll slow it to a snails pace.
Which of course means you've used it...
 
Well, since about all you do is speculate negatively, someone has to provide balance. ;)


Which of course means you've used it...
Ahhh the old selective quoting trick...well done. Leaving out the part where I said "of course I'm just speculating" in reference to the last part I quoted above really makes your case look much better.
 
I'm learning that the only valuable speculation around here to some people is negative. ;)
 
Last edited:
And which of course makes your "Oh, it'll be a worthless toy" post invaluable info. ;)
Do not recall calling it a "worthless toy" but my memory could be faulty. Can you quote that for me?
 
Okay, fair call, you didn't call it useless.
 
It'll never happen. GT is one of the only simulator-type games remaining that doesn't have telemetry. It has to be intentional, because simply creating a UI to expose values that by definition are already calculated by the physics system can't possibly be that hard. There's something that people would see in exposed telemetry that would be damaging to PD's reputation as a simulator, or they'd have done it already. I doubt PD will be changing their tune any time soon.

I seem to recall them saying at one point that there would be the K&W 7 post rig in GT6. Fat chance.


Project CARS on the other hand, has had full telemetry since day one, even when the physics were ropey as. The reason being they want people to be able to find and diagnose the flaws, so that they can fix them. They want people to be able to compare, and to diagnose their own driving and setups, because that's an important part of racing.

I think it's dead clear that PD is using telemetry in-house, they are just skipping over it entirely as a public tool, I'm sure they're collecting data from TT's etc. and disecting it in the lab where they can make tweaks for the greater good of the game for future updates/refinements.

PD seems to like to hang on to all kinds of data until they feel confident it's done right and not just throw it out there when they know it's not right yet (yes yes this can be argued for many reason lol). The pCARS telemetry has no substantial benifit other than providing a user based physics correction system for SMS themselves (at this stage).. it's actually an unprofessional thing to do for a game like Gran Turismo with all the partnerships and licensing.. you know that users could find certain flaws and create a storm out there on the web.

I have no doubt PD have got their feet wet in all areas of tech that can directly give them new definite parameters for inclusion in their physics engine, but take significant funds and co-development projects like the stuff they've been doing with Nissan and Toyota, the whole GT Academy surely they're getting valuable technical info out of it, as well with KW and Yokohoma. Really really happy to see this type of focus to get this physics engine to the top of the racing simulation genre which hopefully leads to there being no doubt left that there is something 'not right'.
 
Last edited:
pCARS need to get A LOT, a HUGE lot more stock and everyday cars plus a career mode where you can buy, sell and customize your cars.

Then it will start to get interesting.

This actual typical PC Sim format doesn't appeal to me. It's just... soul less.

Then you're better off waiting for the bloated proportions GT will have compared to anyone else. You seem to be more about and Quantity than quality nor do you know what pCARS is actually trying to do which isn't the same thing as GT.

Is Project Cars ever going to release? Or are they still sucking money from their fans?
What I find suspicious, we were promised a 360 and PS3 near a year ago. A Wii U ver 6 months ago. Still, we have nothing. I find it odd they continually release renders, yet I find zero reason to believe their legitimate. Further more, how are they able to obtain Porshe and other licenses with their tiny budget too.

They never promised those timelines and as explained on here in the various threads pCARS keeps being brought up or made into the main discussion the PS3 and 360 has been explained. They never obtained Porsche nor claimed to so that shows even more so that you have no idea what you're on about, it's RUF and most people have RUF since they realize Porsche dealings are to asinine and not needed. Also if you have proof that they said they would release the game at these timelines then please show us all if not follow the AUP and don't make claims that are saying a company is fraudulent without proof.

Also there was a vote by members to have it either on the PS3/XB360 cycle or the next gen, and the group picked next gen. Also pCARS was announced prior to anyone having any idea of when the next Gen would come out. Also if you look and see SMS have released a game they were working on prior to pCARS in the past year and half. This indicates they have other projects and are trying to make money off their games.
 
Last edited:
I think it's dead clear that PD is using telemetry in-house, they are just skipping over it entirely as a public tool, I'm sure they're collecting data from TT's etc. and disecting it in the lab where they can make tweaks for the greater good of the game for future updates/refinements.

Do you think so? I'd certainly be surprised if they're not collecting time data and the like from TTs, but are they collecting actual physical data from how the lap was done? I'm not sure about that.

The pCARS telemetry has no substantial benifit other than providing a user based physics correction system for SMS themselves (at this stage)..

You're wrong. Telemetry is an important tool for tuners and people looking to improve their driving.

Take for example the most basic form of tuning, tyre pressures. In real life, every car can and should adjust their tyre pressures when they go on track.

How do you know when you've got the right tyre pressures in real life? By looking at the scrub patterns on your tyre, and the heat patterns on the surface.

How do you know when you've got the right tyre pressures in game? By looking at those same things in telemetry. Watch the wear patterns on your tyres, watch how the heat builds up.

You can sort of do this without telemetry, just trying to feel the grip in the tyres and how the car responds, but it's much, much harder.

And this extends to all sorts of simple tuning. Camber, toe, ride heights, aero, etc. It's actually much easier for new tuners to get into tuning, because they can see immediately what's happening. They don't have to develop this "feel" for what's going on in a really very complex system. Good tuners can do most stuff by feel, but that's a skill that comes with lots of practise.


A driver might use telemetry to keep an eye on his tyre pressures and heat in a long race. In real life, they have sensors for pressure and heat, and so having something that replicates that in game is a good thing. Tyre management can be very important, if the game is set up with a tyre model sophisticated enough that the tyre wear responds to the driver's style.


It's true that right now telemetry's most important function is allowing people to see what's going on with the physics and diagnose potentially serious issues. But it is also a tool that lowers the barrier of entry to tuning, and makes life much easier for experienced tuners (and drivers). And it's an important tool for marketing, to show that the game truly is simulating what it claims to.

it's actually an unprofessional thing to do for a game like Gran Turismo with all the partnerships and licensing.. you know that users could find certain flaws and create a storm out there on the web.

It is not unprofessional. GT is a simulator. Hiding data for fear of someone finding an error is unprofessional.

No one expects total perfection, otherwise it would be reality and not a sim. I don't think much of the idea of keeping everything secret for fear that somebody might discover something wrong with your product. I prefer companies that are open with their product, and willing to interact and fix problems when they're found. I find that produces a better product, and a better relationship between company and consumer.

It really points to the major difference between Project CARS and Gran Turismo.

Project CARS is, for people in WMD at least, a completely open book. Nothing can be hidden. Even for people outside WMD, while there's some stuff we simply aren't allowed to reveal, we can tell you a huge amount about the development and philosophy behind the game.

Gran Turismo is almost the opposite. Consumers know next to nothing about what goes on, other than the product they receive. Even Sony reps get caught out announcing features that turn out not to happen. The communication outside of the PD offices is nearly non-existent.

So while the two games may be pursuing similar audiences, at least in part, they're poles apart in the way they interact with those audiences. pCARS is extremely communicative, possibly more than they should be, as seen from the cries of "SHIFT 3!" whenever a dodgy video arises. GT is extremely non-communicative, to the point that they frustrate a lot of people.
 
I have to say, I am very impressed with the patience and professionalism each and every PCars investor shows when responding to even the most troll-like posts. I really regret not buying in to this project and seeing what is going on behind the scenes, it must be very exciting!

Ignorance should hurt.
 
Do you think so? I'd certainly be surprised if they're not collecting time data and the like from TTs, but are they collecting actual physical data from how the lap was done? I'm not sure about that.



You're wrong. Telemetry is an important tool for tuners and people looking to improve their driving.

Take for example the most basic form of tuning, tyre pressures. In real life, every car can and should adjust their tyre pressures when they go on track.

How do you know when you've got the right tyre pressures in real life? By looking at the scrub patterns on your tyre, and the heat patterns on the surface.

How do you know when you've got the right tyre pressures in game? By looking at those same things in telemetry. Watch the wear patterns on your tyres, watch how the heat builds up.

You can sort of do this without telemetry, just trying to feel the grip in the tyres and how the car responds, but it's much, much harder.

And this extends to all sorts of simple tuning. Camber, toe, ride heights, aero, etc. It's actually much easier for new tuners to get into tuning, because they can see immediately what's happening. They don't have to develop this "feel" for what's going on in a really very complex system. Good tuners can do most stuff by feel, but that's a skill that comes with lots of practise.


A driver might use telemetry to keep an eye on his tyre pressures and heat in a long race. In real life, they have sensors for pressure and heat, and so having something that replicates that in game is a good thing. Tyre management can be very important, if the game is set up with a tyre model sophisticated enough that the tyre wear responds to the driver's style.


It's true that right now telemetry's most important function is allowing people to see what's going on with the physics and diagnose potentially serious issues. But it is also a tool that lowers the barrier of entry to tuning, and makes life much easier for experienced tuners (and drivers). And it's an important tool for marketing, to show that the game truly is simulating what it claims to.

Well I have to admit that I have in general very low interest in tuning, at least to the extent where I'm changing every setting in suspension.. but it is something I do feel I need to understand deeper as a racing enthusiast. But I am not the owner of a a race team dedicated to winning with pure genius set-ups, design and engineering of the mashine, I want to leave this aspect generally alone, with most interest in mostly spec racing and letting the wheel FFB be my trusty guide for what the car needs to be balanced.. I want to be able to put my faith in PD/whoever that the cars as they are (especially racecars), are set up proper as it is... but I understand that tuning has it's place and is important to understand.

Now with the telemetry, I think in Gran Turismo's case, since it's a highly distributed racing game to all types of people, it may be just a touch above what most people bother with... you're discribing the benifits of it in more of a real world sense. I'm not convinced that most users will be able to look at the graphs and just make positive changes to the setup, and you completely omited the fact telemetry also is used to show where improvements can be made from more smooth and balanced driver's inputs. Driver's style and subsequent tyre wear? ..hmm for this to work, ya PD needs to also provide a sophisticated tyre model and an 'inspect the tire' feature with an accurately modeled surface wear. That's a lot to ask, but could be done and I'm sure Yokohoma can really aid in that way, they certainly know how every possible driving style and surface condition can effect exactly what part of the tire wears out, but there's also a thousand different compounds and manufacturing techniques out in the tyre world.. so.. it's out there in Kaz's vision I'm sure.


It is not unprofessional. GT is a simulator. Hiding data for fear of someone finding an error is unprofessional.

No one expects total perfection, otherwise it would be reality and not a sim. I don't think much of the idea of keeping everything secret for fear that somebody might discover something wrong with your product. I prefer companies that are open with their product, and willing to interact and fix problems when they're found. I find that produces a better product, and a better relationship between company and consumer.

It really points to the major difference between Project CARS and Gran Turismo.

Project CARS is, for people in WMD at least, a completely open book. Nothing can be hidden. Even for people outside WMD, while there's some stuff we simply aren't allowed to reveal, we can tell you a huge amount about the development and philosophy behind the game.

Gran Turismo is almost the opposite. Consumers know next to nothing about what goes on, other than the product they receive. Even Sony reps get caught out announcing features that turn out not to happen. The communication outside of the PD offices is nearly non-existent.

So while the two games may be pursuing similar audiences, at least in part, they're poles apart in the way they interact with those audiences. pCARS is extremely communicative, possibly more than they should be, as seen from the cries of "SHIFT 3!" whenever a dodgy video arises. GT is extremely non-communicative, to the point that they frustrate a lot of people.

Kaz expects total perfection :D. It's business, why would you want to step out into the public and talk about potential flaws or show the public how things are going and the baby-steps it's taking to reach the next update or revision? You're right that's a huge difference between the two games, neither is 'wrong', it's effectively the same thing in the end but one of them is being more unprofessional. Usually in any R&D team in any business field is kept secret, the technical headaches they have to get to a satifactory point and the steady improvements are not leaked to leave competitors clueless until at a point where they make an announcement.

GT is non-communicative in the eyes of the gamers maybe, I don't know I see all kinds of interesting stuff the company does, I hope the scattered projects and R&D merge into one flawless game on PS4. 👍
 
It's business, why would you want to step out into the public and talk about potential flaws or show the public how things are going and the baby-steps it's taking to reach the next update or revision?

Because this is not the dark ages, where the populace was kept in the dark and did what they were bloody well told.

The vast majority of consumers are literate, educated, and have access to an enormous range of information. Trying to withhold stuff from them is foolish, it's not how customer interaction works any more. Customers want to make informed decisions.

Moreover, customers tend to appreciate being kept in the loop, regardless of how unnecessary it is. They certainly appreciate being kept in the loop once they've already paid money.

You're right that's a huge difference between the two games, neither is 'wrong', it's effectively the same thing in the end but one of them is being more unprofessional.

Which one? I suspect you don't think it's the same one that I do.

I think the way SMS has approached their project has been consummately professional. They defined clearly the expectations and goals, they communicate clearly when there are problems or things need to be changed, and they respond to feedback. They don't always do exactly what the customer might want, see for reference the fuss when X360/PS3 were dropped. But the customer couldn't claim that the feedback hasn't at least been considered.

I think the way PD has approached their project has been less than professional. Leading up to release there was a lot of conflicting information. A lot was made of post-release support, both with features and content. Post-release, there has been little in the way of actual support and less in the way of communication.

It's safe to say that things haven't gone the way that either PD or the customers expected, but PD has not addressed this, even to say "yes, we've hit some problems and things are taking longer than we thought. Sorry for the delay, but bear with us. Here, have some free Skylines". It's fine, problems happen, but if you have the customer's money already then it's probably reasonable to provide, say, monthly updates on the situation.

To my mind, there's no wrong way to do development, as long as it gets the work done. Both companies are managing to do that (presumably, we don't know with PD).

Likewise, there's no wrong way to communicate with your customers, as long as it gets the information out there. SMS are communicating well, in part because they have a large group of ambassadors who are pretty impressed with the way they work. PD are not communicating well.

Usually in any R&D team in any business field is kept secret, the technical headaches they have to get to a satifactory point and the steady improvements are not leaked to leave competitors clueless until at a point where they make an announcement.

Yes and no. SMS aren't exactly handing out raw code. They're handing out daily compiled builds and communicating with a select group of people who have demonstrated interest in the project and making it better. They're not reinventing the wheel, with the possible exception of the Seta tyre model. They're simply making good use of existing technologies and combining them into a good game.

I don't see what keeping stuff secret would gain them, compared to what they gain by having WMD. Arguably they gain far more by getting their name distributed well in advance of the game's actual release than they would do by keeping it all under wraps.

For that matter, I don't see what keeping stuff secret is gaining PD either, although they've sort of dug themselves a hole now. Were they to open lines of communication now, they'd likely get blasted for the first six months. But that's of their own making, had they started a process of regular communication with fans at the start of the PS3 era and maintained it, they wouldn't have that problem.

I've said before that between GT6, GT5 and GT5P they have all the parts needed to make an unquestionably genre defining game. PD don't really need to develop anything, all they need to do is put the parts together correctly, which they continue to fail to do.

GT is non-communicative in the eyes of the gamers maybe, I don't know I see all kinds of interesting stuff the company does, I hope the scattered projects and R&D merge into one flawless game on PS4. 👍

GT is non-communicative, full stop. I don't see how anyone could claim otherwise. It's not like they're talking to everyone but the gamers.

Maybe it doesn't matter to you, but they are non-communicative. That's their MO.
 
Because this is not the dark ages, where the populace was kept in the dark and did what they were bloody well told.

The vast majority of consumers are literate, educated, and have access to an enormous range of information. Trying to withhold stuff from them is foolish, it's not how customer interaction works any more. Customers want to make informed decisions.

Moreover, customers tend to appreciate being kept in the loop, regardless of how unnecessary it is. They certainly appreciate being kept in the loop once they've already paid money.

Keeping all development and progress under tight wraps has nothing to with making a fool out of customers and playing a game with them, it simply tames the 'smarter people who are frustrated and have better opinions on how things should proceed and cause a riot when things still don't end up they way they'd like'.. in 99% of business where products are designed and developed there is little to no info on actual the internal workings until a certain point is reached, and certainly the idea that the public jumps in to the rescue and solves problems is something no company really wants. It's of course vital to keep eyes and ears peeled for overall impressions/flaws to make your product better. That's why companies have great return polocies, take the product back, inspect the faults in the design and make revisions.. happens with every single product out there.

Being kept in the loop, I have to agree with that to an extent. It's very very meager on that front, to me it has to be a sign they are not sure what they can say in the short term because they're quite simply unsure, yet they must know what they want in the long term, which to me, it's apparent they are working to be the most comprehensive driving game in existance.. they have taken enough steps and made enough conections in the real world to prove this. SMS, yes, ultra communicative and have lots of passionate people backing them, but they have nowhere near the partnerships it would take to bring the end result as close to the real world as GT will (with customer communication or without). (IMO)
I think the way PD has approached their project has been less than professional. Leading up to release there was a lot of conflicting information. A lot was made of post-release support, both with features and content. Post-release, there has been little in the way of actual support and less in the way of communication.

It's safe to say that things haven't gone the way that either PD or the customers expected, but PD has not addressed this, even to say "yes, we've hit some problems and things are taking longer than we thought. Sorry for the delay, but bear with us. Here, have some free Skylines". It's fine, problems happen, but if you have the customer's money already then it's probably reasonable to provide, say, monthly updates on the situation.

I agree that there could be a more kind way of adressing the issue when nothing at all has come out with the what was promised, like you said just say "hang on guys, we're workingat it". But when it's truely a situation when they're not quite sure, maybe saying nothing is the right move because they know they got things in the works that will see the day of light. We know the JP GT site showed a little Senna clip, so probably there will be some major non-content update coming before then also.
Yes and no. SMS aren't exactly handing out raw code. They're handing out daily compiled builds and communicating with a select group of people who have demonstrated interest in the project and making it better. They're not reinventing the wheel, with the possible exception of the Seta tyre model. They're simply making good use of existing technologies and combining them into a good game.

I don't see what keeping stuff secret would gain them, compared to what they gain by having WMD. Arguably they gain far more by getting their name distributed well in advance of the game's actual release than they would do by keeping it all under wraps.

For that matter, I don't see what keeping stuff secret is gaining PD either, although they've sort of dug themselves a hole now. Were they to open lines of communication now, they'd likely get blasted for the first six months. But that's of their own making, had they started a process of regular communication with fans at the start of the PS3 era and maintained it, they wouldn't have that problem.

And I still stand by my view that it's an unprofessional way for PD to work. They're never going to start working like SMS either because they don't need to, they have a vast array of real world information and data they can rely on these days (much more than GT4 days) to build their physics, sound and content from, not to mention Sony owns the rights to everything and wouldn't want basically gamers being the ones who get credit for certain bugs and changes (although that's what happens all the time, just not 'officially'). Doesn't have much to do with secrecy as far as I'm concerned, just simply going about business.
 
And I still stand by my view that it's an unprofessional way for PD to work. They're never going to start working like SMS either because they don't need to, they have a vast array of real world information and data they can rely on these days (much more than GT4 days) to build their physics, sound and content from, not to mention Sony owns the rights to everything and wouldn't want basically gamers being the ones who get credit for certain bugs and changes (although that's what happens all the time, just not 'officially'). Doesn't have much to do with secrecy as far as I'm concerned, just simply going about business.
With this vast amount of information on physics, sound and content, camber doesn't work, ride height is backwards, and the sounds are terrible. And you think they don't want to communicate with gamers because gamers might get the credit for fixing certain bugs and making changes to the game? Seriously?:lol:
 
With this vast amount of information on physics, sound and content, camber doesn't work, ride height is backwards, and the sounds are terrible. And you think they don't want to communicate with gamers because gamers might get the credit for fixing certain bugs and making changes to the game? Seriously?:lol:

I never tied 'communication on game status and fixes' in with 'credit given to gamers due to an open development strategy such as SMS'. Yes, there are questionalble things going on and the time it takes to correct them is strange, I'm not denying that, however I'm staying positive that change will come.
 
I never tied 'communication on game status and fixes' in with 'credit given to gamers due to an open development strategy such as SMS'. Yes, there are questionalble things going on and the time it takes to correct them is strange, I'm not denying that, however I'm staying positive that change will come.

When did realism due to reasoning and rational become cynical and negative?
 
When did realism due to reasoning and rational become cynical and negative?

If you think a game built on the backs of gamer feedback and testing is the best way to reach the goal of simulating real world phenomenon then you may be surprised you'll hit a limit if you don't keep seeking further. I'm by no means an expert in info on how SMS get's their data, but I'm willing to bet it's not to the extent PD has been able to go (largely due to funds). I understand your point, there are a bunch of simple flaws within GT6 that are enough to initiate a headache.
 
Last edited:
If you think a game built on the backs of gamer feedback and testing is the best way to reach the goal of simulating real world phenomenon then you may be surprised you'll hit a limit if you don't keep seeking further. I'm by no means an expert in info on how SMS get's their data, but I'm willing to be it's not to the extent PD has been able to go (largely due to funds). I understand your point, there are a bunch of simple flaws within GT6 that can are enough to initiate a headache.

Then why speak on it? If your a WMD member I could understand you having doubt rather your someone from the outside looking in and you have this dogmatic optimism for PD/GT and then you do what an fanatical would with that belief and nearly smite everything that is similar to it because it can't be nearly as glorious. It hardly makes sense, your either for the sim racing world being a better place, or your just there for GT.

Also SMS have had plenty of ability to get info due to past workings with EA (cars physics don't change real world just how to interpret them in a game), and they have plenty of people that have played various games but also have insight into how physics engines work and also how physics in general works with a system like a car (engineers for example). I don't know what cutting edge info PD has that your taking about, because it has yet to be seen in implementation.
 
Back