Hall Of Fame: Nürburgring Nordschleife

  • Thread starter kekke2000
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I don't find the feedback to be wrong. It's just very, very light which makes feeling what it's telling me difficult. It takes time to adjust and 'listen harder' to the wheel so that you can feel it.
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That's exactly the way I feel about it. The feedback is pretty accurate, it's just very light (which is what gives the cars a "floaty feeling"). I find some of the cars feel better than others. GT4 gives a much more robust feedback which feels more convincing, even though the feedback it's giving you isn't as accurate. A mix of the two would be best. :rolleyes:

Maybe that's what we'll get with GT5. :)
 
C Class (LV1 Lotus Elise 111s - No Assists) 8'41"358
First clean run.

C Class (LV1 Lotus Elise 111s - No Assists) 8'36"888
Second run

C Class (LV1 Lotus Elise 111s - No Assists) 8'34"124
Third run

R Class (LV1 Ford Focus Rally Car - No Assists) 7'50"365
 
Rotary_freq and I both find that the force feedback is slow to respond, or laggy. The FF is always trying to catch up as you steer faster than it, making countersteer more of a chore than it should be -- instead of the wheel guiding you, you have to guide the wheel.

Live for Speed used to have the same problem, until Scawen worked on the FF and greatly improved it.
 
the force feedback is slow to respond, or laggy.
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Also true. The wheel feels laggy & spongy, which is why many people were not impressed with EPR's physics. It takes a while to get used to, so that you can appreciate what it has to offer.
 
Biggles
C Class (LV1 Lotus Elise 111s - No Assists) 8'41"358
First clean run.

C Class (LV1 Lotus Elise 111s - No Assists) 8'36"888
Second run

C Class (LV1 Lotus Elise 111s - No Assists) 8'34"124
Third run

R Class (LV1 Ford Focus Rally Car - No Assists) 7'50"365
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added
 
Biggles is gonna hate me... :nervous: After you got me in the Elise at Burgenschlucht i just had to try it at Nurburgring (and Tsukuba). :crazy:

Class C (LV1 Lotus Elise 111s - No Assists) 8'20"696
 
There's no hating here. I know I can knock a bit of time off, when I get the chance. However, I am stuck with one of those regular "non-oz" PS2s. ;)
 
I kept trying to beat Gan-san's time at the 'ring with the STi. I thought it was impossible to get that time in the game but seeing Mick's times, i guess it's just me. Gan-san got 8'05 but the best i can do is 8'17 or so. There must be many areas in the track where i'm completely ****ing up.

Give it a try with the STi, Mick, and please make a replay so i can get some pointers.

Nice run on the NSX-R at tsukuba, btw.
 
I'll give it a shot when i can.

I was going to make a video of the Elise 111s run. Will that do for a video? It's just that it takes quite a lot of time to make the videos so i'd rather only make the ones i want. The line and speeds for the corners won't be far off for the WRX.
 
I had no idea which Sooby you were referring to...

Class B (LV1 Subaru Impreza 22B STi - No Assists) 8'04"488

The old 22B is 10kg heavier than the WRX STi Version IV but makes 10Nm of torque so i figured it would probably have slightly more power on tap over a wider RPM range. I like that it's a 2-door. It's probably not worth a comparison as they'd be incredibly close assuming the gears weren't significantly different. You have to change very early to get the most out of this engine (around 7000 RPM). Revving it's head off will get you nowhere fast. :P

Class A (LV1 Subaru Impreza WRX STi (GDB Type II) - No Assists) 7'53"415

The extra gear really helps this car. It also has 41Nm more torque at quite high RPM's (4400 RPM) which would make for a very flat power curve considering it peaks at 276 BHP @ 6000 (at 4400RPM it's making 243 BHP; 88% of max power). It's best to change gear early with this car as well (around 6500 RPM). So the added gear and having almost all the power available gear-to-gear makes up for the added 170kg.

I'm so terrible; neglecting other stuff to play games.
 
He's talking to me.

Yeah i meant the second Sti, the Type GDB<---what does that stand for anyways? Is this the TypeC?

Anyways, that's an amazing time once again. I just don't know how you do it. I've put in maybe 100 laps or more at this track but i just know that i'm not taking every corner at the right angle.

There must be many areas where i'm losing tons of time. I hope you don't mind a couple of questions about this track. On the first left hander, do you let off the throttle at all? (Using the STi). I think the second right hand sweeper, during the first section of the track, i always break because i think i won't make it. Do you take this turn at full throttle as well?

Also you're right about the changing gears early. On best motoring, when Gan-san was test driving this same car, he mentioned that the last few hundred rpms didn't make a difference and he started to shift earlier, but not quite at 6K RPMs. That's what i love about this game as well. You can feel that the car is losing torque past 7K RPMs.

What i'm going to do next is run sections of the track and try and squeeze the best times from each section and see how that adds up.

btw, i'm using the G25 on a JPN ps2.

What do you drive in r/l Mick? me? GS400.
 
I didn't know where you were getting your times from so i google-tube'd "Gan-san".

I believe the car he drove is an upgraded version of the WRX STi (GDB Type II). They list the weight of the Spec C at 1370kg which is 70kg lighter than the standard car in the game. I have no idea about engine specs. Maximum HP will no doubt be the same but tuning changes could alter the power curve which would explain him revving it more.

You have to remember when making comparisons to real-life times that they don't push to the limit everywhere (especially at tracks like Nurburgring). IRL you have to leave room for error. Also the car/tyres aren't perfect from start to finish.

Yes i lift slightly for the very first corner (T13); without it the car runs wide on the exit. I think the other corner you were referring to is Hatzenbach. You need a slight lift to make it through that one as well. Off the top of my head, aim for around 160km/h in the Sooby.

At the moment i drive a crappy old '81 Ford Laser.:ill:
 
I have lap with a 'normal' car that i will make a video of...

The NSX-R didn't really get me all that excited at Tsukuba. Most of the time it left me wanting for more power. Still, i did like the handling. But now, having taken it for a few trips around Nurburgring, I LOVE IT!!! I swear the faster you go the better it handles. And although i still wish it had more power, more 'umph' would probably throw off the the B...E...A...U...tiful balance.

Class A (LV1 Honda NSX-R - No assists) 7'40"612
 
Thanks for that video. I looked at it carefully and with the STi, i was able to go from a previous best of 8'20xxx to 8'07 on my first lap!!! The lap didn't feel particularly fast but i was able to cut massive amounts of time off some corners seeing the way you approached them.

Thanks again!
 
Talking about revving the engine: can someone tell me in EPR (& GT4) are there any consequences to overrevving the engine (in Forza it results in engine damage, so you need to avoid it). I never know whether to ignore the overrevving red light or to back off the throttle, or just to keep on going (particularly in the long Nurburgring straight).
 
There's no damage in Enthusia so rev 'em to your hearts content. If you find yourself banging off the rev-limiter lift off the throttle just a little. With less stress from the engine the car will actually get to a slightly higher speed before hitting the rev-limiter. Try to hold it just off the limiter because when you do hit it the short off-power moment slows the car down.
 
Nice looking run with the NSX, Mick. Your precision round the corners is quite impressive - it's easy to see how you're picking up those extra seconds...

I've been running the Ring on GT4 recently. (Finally got my Gold on the S licence beating my previous best of 7'07"004 - 4 thousandths off the pace!). Overall, it really is an amazing achievement for the PS2, I think. The only thing that's missing is the more realistic sense of the weight transfer & tire physics of EPR. As we seem unlikely to get an EPR2, let's hope that GT5 picks up on the positive features of EPR.
 
My impressions of GT:HD lead me to believe that PD are still going to stay with a simplistic movement physics model, rather than moving to the more complex (and more accurate) model in which the car responds based on forces at the wheels (al lah Enthusia). PD like sticking their nose where it doesn't belong (tweaking physics to suit what they want) in order to make the cars easier to drive because they know that will help sell games.

GT4's Nurburgring is just that little bit better built than Enthusia's in my opinion. It's really the bumps that bring it to life, but having full light makes it much more appealing too. The reason i stopped playing GT4 is that as soon as there was a sim with proper oversteer i moved on. In fact i had actually gone back to GT3 almost as soon as i finished playing through GT4 because other than completing the game GT4 just had nothing to offer. Excluding a whole element to driving really limits things.

ToCA3 Pro-Sim is well worth playing. Although the physics are still simplified at least oversteer works. Enthusia's movement is so far ahead of any other PS2 games. Even PC sims like rFactor and GTR2 (which uses rFactor's physics engine and therefore is basically just a non-mod focused version of rFactor) have stuff to learn from Enthusia. The movement and handling of cars in rFactor is developed by the car designer not by the result of the car's design. That's not the way it's supposed to be.

Thank you very much for your kind comments about my NSX-R lap. :D
 
Biggles (LV1 BMW E30 M3 Sport Evolution - No Assists) 8'42"085

Chipping away at it!

I don't think you can fault PD for making a game people like to play - that's the business they are in. What I've heard is that there will be 2 modes in GT5: a "professional" mode & more of an "arcade" mode. If that's true, there's reason to hope that the physics will be more acurate & more demanding.

IMO, visually GT4's Ring is a great achievement & the bumps & the inherent difficulty of the course make running it a challenge, in spite of GT4's poor tire physics & weight transfer modeling.
 
Everytime i play Enthusia i no desire for any other racing games. I don't fully buy the argument that GT sales because it's what people want (ie., easy to drive). I think that it' partly the case but the original appeal of GT games was that it looked real ever since GT1. If PD would have added real physics, they would've ended up with Enthusia as a game. If that were the case, GT would still have been greatly praised and still gone on to sell millions of copies.

I have no hopes for GT5. I will love driving all those FErraris from the cockpit view, but it'll be a waste having them understeer through every corner.
 
Adam West
If PD would have added real physics, they would've ended up with Enthusia as a game. If that were the case, GT would still have been greatly praised and still gone on to sell millions of copies.
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Enthusia bombed because of its high level of difficulty. An equally-realistic Gran Turismo would be praised because of its high level of difficulty.

Mick777
GT4's Nurburgring is just that little bit better built than Enthusia's in my opinion. It's really the bumps that bring it to life, but having full light makes it much more appealing too.
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GT4's Nürburgring has bumps, yes, but the bumps don't have a realistic effect on your car. Also, in my opinion, Enthusia's version of the Nürburgring has more-accurate corner and hill geometry. There's also the fact that GT4's physics engine doesn't understand how banking affects a car's cornering, making corners like the Karussell more difficult than they should be.
 
Enthusia bombed because of its high level of difficulty. An equally-realistic Gran Turismo would be praised because of its high level of difficulty.
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Yes, Enthusia is more difficult than GT4 or Forza (not to mention a dozen other more "arcade-style" racers). But objectively speaking, I think Enthusia bombed not just because of the difficulty, but because, overall, it's not that great a game. Mediocre graphics & sound, limited tracks & cars, no damage, multiplayer or online, & confusing gameplay. Combine that with the terrible release timing - going up against both GT4 & Forza - it's easy to see how it got overlooked.

Of course, those of us who have persevered, have come to appreciate Enthusia for its more detailed & realistic driving experience.

As an EPR2 seems unlikely, I'm still pinning my hopes on GT5 & trusting that the power of the PS3 will allow PD to do things that were not possible with the PS2. :)
 
Wolfe
GT4's Nürburgring has bumps, yes, but the bumps don't have a realistic effect on your car. Also, in my opinion, Enthusia's version of the Nürburgring has more-accurate corner and hill geometry. There's also the fact that GT4's physics engine doesn't understand how banking affects a car's cornering, making corners like the Karussell more difficult than they should be.
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Without question, all true. That's why even though i like the design of GT4's Nurb (because i see the track itself as more accurate) i see no point in driving on it now that i have Enthusia because i prefer the driving to be more accurate.
 

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