New F1 Qualifying Format for 2016.

[catamount39]

People don't like change, especially when it hasn't been seen yet.

Change when it's good, fine. Change when it's literally an event straight out of Burnout or Need For Speed...NO.

 

[GTPorsche]

Change when it's good, fine. Change when it's literally an event straight out of Burnout or Need For Speed...NO.

lol.. what? They were already running knockout qualifying.. now they're going to adjust it.

 

[AudiMan2011]

Change when it's good, fine. Change when it's literally an event straight out of Burnout or Need For Speed...NO.

Would you rather see cars sitting in the garage for 90% of the session, going out and doing 1 run, or would you rather see everyone out all the time, going hell for leather to avoid elimination?

 

[Samus]

It's really the same system, they're just knocking cars out gradually rather than grouped at the end of the session.

I also like that it puts the teams on their feet. Once a rule has been in place for a while they all eventually get the hang of it, they all know the most effective way to do something and then things start getting predicable. Like the general approach to race strategy the last few seasons, and tyres, they all got it worked out and all pretty much did the same.

With something like this they have to think again, it's a new element they've got to work out.

 

[JBF77]

Change when it's good, fine. Change when it's literally an event straight out of Burnout or Need For Speed...NO.

Why is this a bad thing??

It's really the same system, they're just knocking cars out gradually rather than grouped at the end of the session.

Exactly! Once they have done their initial runs, the top teams will go back to the garages anyway, no different.

 

[aarror]

While not a terrible idea in principle, I can't see this working with the current tires. The first lap is substantially faster than any laps following that. So we'll see one quick lap from each car at the start, and then watch them trundle around the rest of the session because they can't improve their times.

 

[Samus]

While not a terrible idea in principle, I can't see this working with the current tires. The first lap is substantially faster than any laps following that. So we'll see one quick lap from each car at the start, and then watch them trundle around the rest of the session because they can't improve their times.

Not in Q1 at most tracks. There is always a lot of improvement through that first session, hence why we've occasionally seen some big casualties thinking they're safe either on pure pace or on the prime, staying in the garage and dropping down as a midfield car sticks on options or the track just improves a lot.

They won't be able to risk that now, even in the middle of the session. A lot of the time we'd see top drivers not really worrying sat in the drop zone, going out and improving their times drastically in the last minute of Q1. Now they're going to have to be on the ball throughout, making sure they're not in the dropzone at any moment.

I like the premise, obviously we need to see it in action to truly judge it.

 

[TenEightyOne]

With regards to the thread title, my understanding is this is not final. Probably will on March 4th.

That's the date when the WSMC will be asked to ratify the proposal. I'd be very surprised if it wasn't ratified.

While not a terrible idea in principle, I can't see this working with the current tires. The first lap is substantially faster than any laps following that. So we'll see one quick lap from each car at the start, and then watch them trundle around the rest of the session because they can't improve their times.

Depends on the rubbering.

 

[TRGTspecialist]

They rightly haven't tinkered with Quali in many years because they hit upon a great formula but I have to admit the last few years it has been losing it's excitement, with the first 3-4 minutes of each session wasted and Q3 more often than not being a damp squib.

I agree Q3 in particular has been dull lately, but I think that's more to do with only having 2 drivers fighting for pole most days rather than the format itself. Oh, and the consistently bad coverage of the final runs (static shots of the start/finish straight because FOM refuse to do split-screen onboards or suchlike, drives me mad).

If Mercedes dominance continues this year I doubt this system would solve Q3 dullness either, because they still have the 5 minute window to do their first run putting them comfortably out of elimination, and then have their second shot at pole when they please - which is pretty much what they do under the current system.

What's with all the complaining???

I haven't seen a lot of complaining about it to be honest, here or elsewhere - only a handful of negative posts in this thread, a couple of which are explicitly complaining about the absurdity of the Strategy Group's governance rather than the idea itself.

People don't like change, especially when it hasn't been seen yet.

Having not seen it yet doesn't stop us from discussing potential flaws in it, though. And this is F1 so there will be many flaws to find

 

[GTPorsche]

How exactly is cars actually running laps in qualifying a potential flaw?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I would have preferred to keep the current format, but with a top ten shootout - at the end of Q3, the top ten drivers get the track to themselves for one flying lap.

That said, I can see the benefits of this plan, provided that it's implemented properly; it really opens up strategy options as to when you set your fastest lap time, and how you respond to the threat of an imminent elimination. We could see some really brilliant lap times from drivers who otherwise would slip under the radar, and no-one would be safe, so conservative driving would be a thing of the past.

 

[aarror]

Not in Q1 at most tracks. There is always a lot of improvement through that first session, hence why we've occasionally seen some big casualties thinking they're safe either on pure pace or on the prime, staying in the garage and dropping down as a midfield car sticks on options or the track just improves a lot.

They won't be able to risk that now, even in the middle of the session. A lot of the time we'd see top drivers not really worrying sat in the drop zone, going out and improving their times drastically in the last minute of Q1. Now they're going to have to be on the ball throughout, making sure they're not in the dropzone at any moment.

I like the premise, obviously we need to see it in action to truly judge it.

I was under the impression that drivers weren't allowed to come back to the pits, and therefore unable to change tires. Even if they are allowed to change tires, there would need to be extra sets given for qualifying. If not, we'll just see cars circulating at low speeds and starting their laps at the last possible moment just like we do now. It could work, but there's going to have to be some serious thought put into this by those in control.

 

[Furinkazen]

 

[Rods]

I really like it. It leaves less room for mistakes (both driver and team - mechanical delays, whatever).

The only thing I'd change is: the last three driver should have a shootout style P1 battle. One lap each and the best gets the pole. It'd add drama, put more pressure on the drivers. It could only help!

 

[Samus]

I was under the impression that drivers weren't allowed to come back to the pits, and therefore unable to change tires. Even if they are allowed to change tires, there would need to be extra sets given for qualifying. If not, we'll just see cars circulating at low speeds and starting their laps at the last possible moment just like we do now. It could work, but there's going to have to be some serious thought put into this by those in control.

Nothing has changed regarding tyres and coming back in, so no that won't be an issue. Top teams will still be able try to save the options or use them to assure themselves through Q1. Only now they won't be able to just wait until the last 3 minutes, see if they're safe and go out (or not). They have to make sure they're safe at all times.

Literally all that is changing is when drivers are eliminated.

because they still have the 5 minute window to do their first run putting them comfortably out of elimination, and then have their second shot at pole when they please - which is pretty much what they do under the current system.

What about those times where they mess up the first run though? Before they would just call it a banker, sit in 9th/10th and then go out the last 3 minutes. Now they can't, they'll have to do another lap right away.

 

[aarror]

Nothing has changed regarding tyres and coming back in, so no that won't be an issue. Top teams will still be able try to save the options or use them to assure themselves through Q1. Only now they won't be able to just wait until the last 3 minutes, see if they're safe and go out (or not). They have to make sure they're safe at all times.

Literally all that is changing is when drivers are eliminated.

This will almost certainly make qualifying more exciting for the midfield teams, but the argument that the top teams will be under any kind of extra pressure is laughable. All they have to do is set a time in the first couple minutes, and then cruise around for the rest of Q1/Q2. If someone looks like challenging them, they just put on a new set of tires and turn up the pace. Sound familiar?

 

[Telstar]

I don't like this proposal at all. What if you run into traffic or there is a yellow flag and you can't set a lap time in time? Or you have a technical problem at the beginning of the session and can't fix it in time? It will depend much more on luck now, not on the speed the driver actually has. Sure, you can say "it spices things up a little" because there is a higher chance the front runners could be starting from further back. But if it's only about having a mixed up grid, we might as well abandon qualifying completely and introduce randomized grids.

Now you could say there will be more action on track. If the teams don't get extra tyre sets then I don't see how this will happen. There will be the same old tyre and car saving we've seen for the last few years and a single fast lap in the right moment to avoid elemination.

After all, the qualifying format of the last years hasn't been bad in my eyes. What did we have before? We had a 60 minute qualifying session when you were allowed to run 12 laps during the course of the session. This is obviously an even more unexciting format. Then we had a qualifying when everyone was allowed to run only one lap at all which was very unfair regarding changing weather conditions. The current (until now) qualifying format was better than all those before and I don't see a reason to change something that wasn't broken.

You know, I want things and surprises to happen, and not to be artificially made happening.

 

[TRGTspecialist]

How exactly is cars actually running laps in qualifying a potential flaw?

What? Where did I (or anyone else) say that is a flaw?

What about those times where they mess up the first run though? Before they would just call it a banker, sit in 9th/10th and then go out the last 3 minutes. Now they can't, they'll have to do another lap right away.

That's true it'll make them rethink strategy if they mess up, but that doesn't happen very often. I'm not sure I'd call them banker laps either - I don't know about 2015, but in 2014 I'm sure I remember a lot of pole times being set on the first run rather than the second. (Or maybe that was me falling asleep before the 2nd runs usually finished.... )

And I think I agree with @aarror, the idea that we'll get to see cars constantly fighting to stay out of elimination throughout each session assumes that the cars can actually run continously and competitively for 10 mins or so, which depends heavily on the tyres and may not always be guaranteed.

 

[GTPorsche]

Or you have a technical problem at the beginning of the session and can't fix it in time?

Because that never happened with the previous format?

 

[Samus]

This will almost certainly make qualifying more exciting for the midfield teams, but the argument that the top teams will be under any kind of extra pressure is laughable. All they have to do is set a time in the first couple minutes, and then cruise around for the rest of Q1/Q2. If someone looks like challenging them, they just put on a new set of tires and turn up the pace. Sound familiar?

That's all they supposedly had to do the last few years but it didn't stop some of them messing up and dropping out early. That was only with one elimination, at the end of each session. Now they're going to have the pressure of drop-outs more often, surely only increasing the chances and forcing their hand.

I certainly don't think it's going to mean 20 cars running constantly for the full session (or until they're knocked out), no. However It is surely at the very least going to lead to more cars running for more of the time. As I say, if it does happen let's give it three or four attempts before making a true judgement.

 

[TRGTspecialist]

I would have preferred to keep the current format, but with a top ten shootout - at the end of Q3, the top ten drivers get the track to themselves for one flying lap.

Yep, this is my favourite idea too, gives the best of both worlds in terms of coverage - elimination frenzy to decide the back/midfield order, then we get to see all the laps in the pole fight, one by one in their true glory. I'd probably make the shootout a bit smaller than that (say 5-7 cars), since that's realistically as many as you're going to get who have a chance of taking pole.

 

[Samus]

They did the single lap thing a decade or more ago, it didn't really work. Crowds were bored and it was extremely unfair, nobody drove on the same track.

 

[jake2013guy]

Here's my Facebook rant about it.
"Looks like somebody at FOM or the Strategy Group was like:
"We need to make the qualifying system more exciting to fans who don't have the attention span of a spoon unless something overly exciting happens. How about we add elimination rounds during the session which makes complete sense. Forget the pointless idea that Formula E and the WTCC have adopted which work and benefit the fastest people."" (The final section referencing the one lap shootouts.)

 

[sems4arsenal]

That's all they supposedly had to do the last few years but it didn't stop some of them messing up and dropping out early. That was only with one elimination, at the end of each session. Now they're going to have the pressure of drop-outs more often, surely only increasing the chances and forcing their hand.

I certainly don't think it's going to mean 20 cars running constantly for the full session (or until they're knocked out), no. However It is surely at the very least going to lead to more cars running for more of the time. As I say, if it does happen let's give it three or four attempts before making a true judgement.

If they add more sets I think it could be the case, the issue here is that 90 seconds is not enough for pit entry and change of tyres.

 

[chrisjohnson93]

Don't think the new qualifying will work in my opinion as I don't see why the qualifying format they had already needed to be changed. One way teams will be caught out is if there is a red flag during the session as on some tracks an out lap and flying lap is over 3 minutes which will eliminate 2 people automatically.

 

[aarror]

That's all they supposedly had to do the last few years but it didn't stop some of them messing up and dropping out early. That was only with one elimination, at the end of each session. Now they're going to have the pressure of drop-outs more often, surely only increasing the chances and forcing their hand.

I certainly don't think it's going to mean 20 cars running constantly for the full session (or until they're knocked out), no. However It is surely at the very least going to lead to more cars running for more of the time. As I say, if it does happen let's give it three or four attempts before making a true judgement.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, I'm certainly willing to give it a try. But the premise depends on drivers being able to push for the whole session, or at least more than one lap. With the current tires, I don't think it will work as intended.

 

[TRGTspecialist]

They did the single lap thing a decade or more ago, it didn't really work. Crowds were bored and it was extremely unfair, nobody drove on the same track.

Yup, they started it the first year I started watching, which is probably why I'm nostalgic for it I do appreciate it was potentially unfair and took way too long, although I think having a shootout for just a few cars would largely solve those issues.

Anyway, I've only just seen this bit in the Autosport article:

Qualifying will remain as a one-hour session, split into three segments, but drivers must be on track throughout each part until they get knocked out.

So I'm very confused by this, does this mean they won't be allowed to pit in, so in each session they'll have to run on a single set of tyres?

 

[Bo]

It's nice to see an interesting change in F1 that's not completely devoid of sense. It could go either way, but at least they're trying a new approach to things.

Uhm... what?

'Hey guys the racing is dull, half the teams don't have sponsors and many fans now can't watch because of paywalls. What can we do?'
'Add musical chairs to qualifying?'
'Genius!'

So we're dismissing things because they don't address other specific concerns with the series? F1 is far from being in tip top shape, but people do have free reign to address other issues. Qualifying has been a hot topic for a considerable amount of time now, so at least they're taking a punt at some kind of new approach - it's not as though this is being touted as big fix for the series, and it certainly isn't intended to be one, so I don't know why you'd expect it to be anything more.

"Proposal A that addresses issue B is stupid because it doesn't address issues X, Y and Z" is a bit of an odd train of thought.

Formula 1 and NASCAR are now equal in terms of joke factor. THANKS A LOT FOM/FIA/BERNIE/F1 Teams! 🤬

I think you may be a little sensitive to change if a minor format alteration, that actually makes sense, completely tarnishes the series to the point where you can no longer take it seriously.

Oh for god's sake - putting the idea itself to one side for a moment, have they actually agreed to change qualifying, the ONE THING that isn't broken, that people aren't complaining about, and isn't a key part of the many many problems the sport does face?

You couldn't make it up. An excellent parody of F1 governance......

Not broken? Certainly, but not a little tired in format? Debatable.

Very little actually goes on in qualifying sessions. The fastest drivers will always put in a safe banker in Q1 and Q2, the only shocks coming with poorly judged timing, and Q3 always ends in a one lap shootout. It's certainly not a very challenging format. This rewards consistency in lap times, and mimics the challenges a driver may typically face in a racing situation - but I see it more as a good way of eliminating the loopholes that are a product of the current system, less of a pure entertainment tool.

I also still don't get how a one day meeting, that probably took little more than a few hours, suddenly means that all other plans to address existing issues have somehow flown out the window. People will be working on those issues - having a few hours to discuss a valid alteration elsewhere will have had precisely zero effect on the progress of said developments. F1 has big issues - they certainly won't be tackled at the side of a racetrack in a couple of hours - so why the presumption that this was somehow a massive waste of time for those involved?
__________________________________________________________________________________________________

For what should really be a fairly intriguing, but nonetheless minor change to the format, there's an awful lot of hysterical "STUPID GIMMICKS! F1 IZ BROKEN! HYPERBOLE! ALL BERNIE'S FAULT! DOESN'T ADDRESS MY SPECIFIC CONCERNS SO IT'S POINTLESS!" doing the rounds. Cheer up folks. If it doesn't work, they can go back or try something else. If it does work, then we get a more exciting qualifying system. It's really nothing worth getting vocal about.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

we get to see all the laps in the pole fight, one by one in their true glory

That's the thing that always bothers me - the television director only ever follows the first driver out on the last run, and we only get the last 500 metres or so of everyone else's laps. I remember Massa going out first in Malaysia a few years ago, but he backed off halfway through the lap. The director followed him anyway; meanwhile, Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso were in a titanic battle for pole ... not that the audience would know it, because all that we saw was them taking the final corner. A one-lap shootout lets the audience see every driver and puts the maximum pressure to deliver on them.

I'd probably make the shootout a bit smaller than that (say 5-7 cars)

I would want a 24-car grid. Eight drivers get eliminated in Q1, eight in Q2, and the Q3 times are used to set the running order for the shootout.

 

[GrumpyGrumps]

For what should really be a fairly intriguing, but nonetheless minor change to the format, there's an awful lot of hysterical "STUPID GIMMICKS! F1 IZ BROKEN! HYPERBOLE! ALL BERNIE'S FAULT! DOESN'T ADDRESS MY SPECIFIC CONCERNS SO IT'S POINTLESS!" doing the rounds. Cheer up folks. If it doesn't work, they can go back or try something else. If it does work, then we get a more exciting qualifying system. It's really nothing worth getting vocal about.

Precisely. Either it works or it doesn't, and even if it doesn't, none of this will matter anyhow. They are going to do what they want to do. One could say that this shake-ups like this are going to keep happening as long as Bernie is in charge, but we'll see. Many, many people do not like him sure, but no one has any idea what might happen when he's not there being Bernie.

My personal take? I'm interested in the cars, in the engineering. All of this competitiveness and human drama nonsense doesn't really excite me in the slightest.